PvP Combat Changes - Evasion + Splintering

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Paithan said:

Bleak said:

TC has been updated and patch notes adjusted.

• Reduced Shatter potion throwing range to 8 tiles.
• While players are in combat with other players equipping +skill items will have a 15-second delay to increasing skill.

That's a start.  I'd like to see it even less. 5 or less.

I think skill delay should be 5-10s tops and scale based on how many items you swap.

Also, evasion is still too powerful.  This won't do anything.

I would like to see delay like 30 secs or real skill on animal form, thanks.

losses

If you're going to nerf ninja swap, you should double VVV horse health. They die pretty much instantly and this whole patch is just a nerf to the small groups fighting 4v8. Also remove the requirement to heal the horse after no dachi. 

Cetric

i think if you take anny horses, you gotta take teleport rings too.  But the + skill thing is a nice change.

losses

Yes forgot to mention this will just shift people from using ninja swap to summoning VVV horses / anniversary horses instantly (they already do that but ninja swap is more popular).

Might as well fix that too.

Optimus

These are all really good changes so far.

I agree that the shatter range should be even shorter. I would go as close as 2-3 tiles, 8 is still well within troll range.

I still think shields should be disarmable, but also different from weapon disarms. Either a reduced chance to be disarmed, being able rearm quicker, or both. The more I think about it, the less sure I am about how it should work while remaining fair. I think this could use a lot more discussion.

Optimus

losses said:

Yes forgot to mention this will just shift people from using ninja swap to summoning VVV horses / anniversary horses instantly (they already do that but ninja swap is more popular).

Might as well fix that too.

Players can still use animal form if they please. They just cannot swap entire suits out to change their templates on the fly, during battle, to suit their needs at a particular moment. While people are focused on animal form right now, this change affects more than just that.

Anni horses could get an uninterruptible casting timer, in the same vein as tele rings, or invis items. That would be about right.

Urge

Put the same timer on statuettes as summoning from a pet ball and problem solved.

I'm not going to be able to do testing this weekend but I would appreciate if someone other than me could test all the bypasses on the hiding/shatters by testing invis pots, turkey feathers and the basic magery invis spell. I don't see invis items being an issue but if anyone wants to try that go ahead.

Paithan

Urge said:

Put the same timer on statuettes as summoning from a pet ball and problem solved.

I'm not going to be able to do testing this weekend but I would appreciate if someone other than me could test all the bypasses on the hiding/shatters by testing invis pots, turkey feathers and the basic magery invis spell. I don't see invis items being an issue but if anyone wants to try that go ahead.

 You can disrupt summoning balls. Not being able to disrupt anniversary horses and then popping instantly is insanely overpowered. 

Urge

Paithan said:

Urge said:

Put the same timer on statuettes as summoning from a pet ball and problem solved.

I'm not going to be able to do testing this weekend but I would appreciate if someone other than me could test all the bypasses on the hiding/shatters by testing invis pots, turkey feathers and the basic magery invis spell. I don't see invis items being an issue but if anyone wants to try that go ahead.

 You can disrupt summoning balls. Not being able to disrupt anniversary horses and then popping instantly is insanely overpowered. 

Yeah I know. That's why I said it. Agree with it?

Optimus

I would actually argue that anni horses, and VvV mounts should remain as is, or at most being given an uninterruptible casting timer of 1-2 seconds.

Anni horses are finite in number, relatively expensive for single use items, and as far as I know, being used as intended. To use them you must A] Stop, B] Use item, C] click gump, D] wait 1 more second, then D] get onto the mount [which if is an anni horse, is a 1 shot kill], with other players trying to kill both you, and said mount. If it is a VvV mount, you spent 20 minutes doing VvV towns to get that statuette, which you intend to use in battle to get remounted, presumably because your other VvV mount has been killed.

If we're going to nerf limited supply, rare items used in PvP, we should start by looking at tele rings some more, by having to stop moving to use them, or them being interruptible. They had a slight nerf, but if you look around in PvP, they're still being abused to be OP on a daily basis, which shows it wasn't enough. Also up is giant turkey feathers, which are a non-spawning rare/expensive item used for instant invisibility, no casting or delay time involved.

Wall of stone/targetrelative spam also needs some serious discussion, as it is abused by every competitive PvP guild on Atl. There should be some sort of timer, or limit to walls being active at a time. That's the only way I can see it being effectively nerfed.

Tail

#1 Splinter Immunity 10 Seconds is Fine (15 Seconds is too long, 5 Seconds is to slow.
#2 5 seconds before you can hide is plenty after throwing a Shatter.
#3 Evasion change is fine.
#4 Disarming Shields? If its a new Special Ability on a weapon like Shield Break than yes otherwise No. Biggest reasons why NO:
          * Makes for less possible templates to play. (If anyone wants to argue having less options is better than having more options....then you are object-ably incorrect.)
          * Shield Bash would become pretty useless. Shield Bash Uses Mana regardless of Hitting and on top of that having a shield disarmed by a simple disarm ability . .the very few that use it now would stop.
TAIL WINS!

Ani

Agreed, all changes seem reasonable.

And yes, totally agree with Tail on #4.  Very good point.

Wizards matter!

Cetric

Shield bash should have a longer timer

Lynk

Tele rings should freeze you while waiting for cursor, just like wands.  Uninterruptable.  

Ani

Annnd... running shot should have a 10 second timer... 

Tail

Can we remove dismount? I think it's a bit OP.

Rorschach

Thank you all for being respectful and courteous, for the most part. Let us remain topical as well.

The_Higgs_1

I still think Splintering isnt being nerfed enough, it is by far the most OP thing in pvp.  Needs a hard nerf to bring back decent balanced pvp.  Since splinter came out 99.7% of players use it, that how you know its way OP, nerf it harder please.

Urge

Rorschach said:

Thank you all for being respectful and courteous, for the most part. Let us remain topical as well.

I know the post is intended for just those listed but any change can cause a ripple effect bringing us back to square one.  Letting them brainstorm the cause and effects to change it all in one motion would be the best possible outcome for everyone. Less future dev time and less future posts here for you to work on. 

Elvis

gargoyles can parry and evade and dismount with throwing weapon but you cant disarm them.  why not. more unbalanced than shatter pot timers.

ezikel

Bleak said:

The following changes have been implemented based on the feedback provided here and will be available for testing on TC as of today. We want to give everyone interested a time to provide feedback, so head on over to TC and check them out!  

• Bushido Evasion PvP is now subject to diminishing returns after the first evade which will increase with each evade. Diminishing return scales up to a max of 70% evasion reduction. For example, a player with a 60% chance to evade would be reduced to 18% at the max reduction.
• The weapon hit property Splintering PvP immunity now includes force walk and now lasts 15 seconds.
• Shatter Potions will now provide 60 seconds of PvP immunity once hit. Users of the shatter pots will be unable to hide for 6 seconds. There is also a chance for the number of potions shattered to be reduced. Reduced throwing range to 8 tiles.
• While players are in combat with other players equipping +skill items will have a 15-second delay to increasing skill.
  

Please keep the discussion related to the items listed above. These changes are not set in stone and we look forward to continuing the discussion.

#1 look good like this
#2its good but you need to add the splintering cannot work with focus attack and after a teleport you cannot swing just after.
#3 you can do better.the only things is going to do its the 2 3 troll just going to run in form 60 sec and shatter again. add a 5 min timer and heavy reduce number of potions shattered .or just delete it from the because they ave what  3 4 troll that only doing this all days
#4 perfect

Paithan

Optimus said:

I would actually argue that anni horses, and VvV mounts should remain as is, or at most being given an uninterruptible casting timer of 1-2 seconds.

Anni horses are finite in number, relatively expensive for single use items, and as far as I know, being used as intended. To use them you must A] Stop, B] Use item, C] click gump, D] wait 1 more second, then D] get onto the mount [which if is an anni horse, is a 1 shot kill], with other players trying to kill both you, and said mount. If it is a VvV mount, you spent 20 minutes doing VvV towns to get that statuette, which you intend to use in battle to get remounted, presumably because your other VvV mount has been killed.

If we're going to nerf limited supply, rare items used in PvP, we should start by looking at tele rings some more, by having to stop moving to use them, or them being interruptible. They had a slight nerf, but if you look around in PvP, they're still being abused to be OP on a daily basis, which shows it wasn't enough. Also up is giant turkey feathers, which are a non-spawning rare/expensive item used for instant invisibility, no casting or delay time involved.

Wall of stone/targetrelative spam also needs some serious discussion, as it is abused by every competitive PvP guild on Atl. There should be some sort of timer, or limit to walls being active at a time. That's the only way I can see it being effectively nerfed.

Limited supply items are absolutely a problem in pvp.  Great point.  I think teleport rings should either A. be taken out of the game or B.spawn or be able to be farmed so everyone has the same items to use.  You don't have a problem with the horses because you currently abuse them.  Once it is being abused by everyone (which trust me it will be) you will sing a different tune.

CovenantX

Personally, I think teleport charged jewelry should spawn as some reward or loot again, But, should have a global cooldown on uses & a cast time similar to how wands were changed a while back.

Also, Using a charge from an item, such as a wand or ring/bracelet should disable a weapon special move (toggle off) as it does when any spell is cast.

'Pets from a statuette' these items should have a 15 second delay (for consistency's sake) if the user was recently in combat.  During the 15 seconds, the user should not be able to cast spells, hide/stealth, or used charged items.

Problems solved.

Lynk

Just make using the teleport jewel freeze you like the wands and be uninterruptible.  Pretty easy fix so people cant just spam them on the run.

Just make pet statues work like pet balls/ethys, paralyze you while a 3 second summon takes place that can be disrupted.

Optimus

I would be interested in seeing tele rings [and more PvP geared items] as VvV rewards. We need things to make fighting in towns [or anywhere outside of Yew gate really] worthwhile again. If these are going to remain viable in PvP, they should be more accessible to the community, and promote action, rather than stockpiled and used by the very few hoarders.

I agree with the summon time and freezing with Anni horse/VvV mounts, but think it should remain being uninterruptible, as with invis/tele items. Anni horses are already very pricey and short in supply, if popping mounts becomes more popular [and it is already fairly widely used], we might see more people doing towns to get VvV mounts, and thus, more PvP away from Yew gate. Doing 20 minutes of towns to get a mount for a speedy getaway? That seems fair enough.

Also going to reiterate my opinion that:

A] focus attack should not have an effect on splinter. As it is now, PvP is far too reliant on waiting for a random focus attack splinter. With the coming evasion nerf it should be more of happy accident than a probable turn of tides that has no repercussions to the caster, unlike dismounting.

B] splinter should go back to proc with infectious strike. With no more 60% focus attacks, the 20-30% LP splinters should come back into play. Again, more happy accidents, without the probable turns.

Lynk

Hello?

ezikel

all this for nothing ...

Benelli

Few weeks since any updates.. any updates when these are going to be patched through to normal shards?

Benelli

Going on almost 6 month mark from when a thread was made with theese issues finally being addressed!

Max_Blackoak

any word on whether bushido dexxers without mage or myst are gonna get nerfed into the ground after all? I really would like to see a solution similar to chivalry where the evasion nerf only applies when you have magery or mysticism on the template.