PvP Combat Changes - Evasion + Splintering

Bleak

The following changes have been implemented based on the feedback provided here and will be available for testing on TC as of today. We want to give everyone interested a time to provide feedback, so head on over to TC and check them out!  

• Bushido Evasion PvP is now subject to diminishing returns after the first evade which will increase with each evade. Diminishing return scales up to a max of 70% evasion reduction. For example, a player with a 60% chance to evade would be reduced to 18% at the max reduction.
• The weapon hit property Splintering PvP immunity now includes force walk and now lasts 15 seconds.
• Shatter Potions will now provide 60 seconds of PvP immunity once hit. Users of the shatter pots will be unable to hide for 6 seconds. There is also a chance for the number of potions shattered to be reduced. Reduced throwing range to 8 tiles.
• While players are in combat with other players equipping +skill items will have a 15-second delay to increasing skill.
  

Please keep the discussion related to the items listed above. These changes are not set in stone and we look forward to continuing the discussion.

Max_Blackoak

maybe the evasion nerf should only apply when magery is on the template as well?
I believe bushido dexxers were fine.

Urge

-Shatter change seems good. Adding a mount/hiding timer could solve this for good.

-Splinter change seems good.

- The evasion change I think needs to be tweaked. With two casting on me the timer ran out before I could get to the diminishing returns with the results being I either evaded all 100+ damage or I took minimal. I feel diminishing returns should start after 2 evades.

The only way I got to the diminishing returns was to walk thru fire fields while being casted on by two mages. That is an impossible scenario to duplicate in everyday pvp.

Cetric

i agree with both the above posters.

I also think, with the splintering portion, Focus Attack should no longer double Splintering Weapon from 30% to 60%.

But the 4 evades diminishing returns could probably be moved down to 2 and feel proper.  There are probably better ways to handle this as there have been many good mentions, but it would be something.  It may be worth while as well to consider identifying player versus monster damage in the consideration.  4 full evades followed by diminished evades doesn't really fix anything.  Maybe 2 would feel better.  Or consider cutting damage evaded from 100% to lesser numbers.  Theres a lot to be desired on this one, and could prove to be the most important one to get right.  I think Evasion would be better with a bigger tweak, something that cuts the player damage that gets through with diminishing returns, rather than negates it.  It would also be worth while to compare if the player has 69.9+ magery or mystic, to allow bushido dexers to be unchanged.  As this sits, evasion change would be unnoticable in most situations, and absolutely unnoticeable 1v1.  Biggest notice would be several players syncing a single a target. 

As for shatter, yea, you could add something where the person who throws it cannot hide for 60 seconds and this would pretty much finish off the "only shatter stealth trolls"

TimSt

I foresee a way to abuse the shatter pots change.

A player hits themselves or a partner with a shatter pot and then while immune attacks others. Or if a non PvPer go about their business.

If the immune player is also prevented from PvPing that too can be abused by people not wanting to PvP.  Just hit a PvPer attacking you with a shatter pot and go about your business. 

As a non-PvPer I would take advantage of both scenarios.

Urge

Cetric said:

i agree with both the above posters.

I also think, with the splintering portion, Focus Attack should no longer double Splintering Weapon from 30% to 60%

I tested with Aeyko. It really doesn't even make a difference.

Urge

TimSt said:

I foresee a way to abuse the shatter pots change.

A player hits themselves or a partner with a shatter pot and then while immune attacks others. Or if a non PvPer go about their business.

If the immune player is also prevented from PvPing that too can be abused by people not wanting to PvP.  Just hit a PvPer attacking you with a shatter pot and go about your business. 

As a non-PvPer I would take advantage of both scenarios.

No sir. It was worded wrong. There is now a 60 second countdown timer when trying to throw another one. It does not grant immunity from attacking or being attacked, it grants immunity from another potion to destroy more potions. This change is perfect.

Lynk

Shatters look good.  Splint seems kinda long.  Biggest problem was the back to back 7 splints in a row.  Could solve for that with a shorter 10-15 immunity.  

Evasion doesnt even seem like a nerf.  Will still be OP and used by everyone.

Cetric

any immunity would be good i agree there, 10-15s probably more appropriate

ezikel

splintering look good but you need to add that not double with focus attack
shatter pot need to go ,the only things the 30 sec immunity done its the troll wait 30 sec more .make it  a minimun 20 minute immunity and add 30 min that cant be used. oh and add that cannot form hide mouth for 1 min after.

Benelli

proposed changes seem great, besides nothing addressing the hybrid 840+ skill templates.
also there was no adjustments the initial pet nerf in pvp(that has been overnerfed) are we seeing any changes with this?

also, its great that things are getting tuned.. but I can safely say it has benn YEARS since something new has came out strictly for pvp… vvv, factions, etc. any new updates coming soon?

thanks

The_Higgs_1

Splinter immunity cant be long enough in my opinion, 30s is good for now.  Id rather splinter be nerfed to remove it from pvp cause its hands down ruined pvp across the board.  Definitely add it to not proc with any special or focus attack.   

Evasion could use a hefty nerf as well, Id say 2 evade procs per cast is ok for now to test, but could need a hard cap of damage evaded instead.   What if you end up evading to bleed ticks first then take 4-5 hail storms afterwards, would be better to balance it with a set damage cap, say 50-80 damage for example.  Either that or break it to work with any casting school.

Shatters don't make any difference to me, I can see immunity to where 5 people cant shatter same target in a few secs.  Which is what he has so that's fine, Id also like the interrupt taken away from the shatter potion.  

CovenantX

Parry Passive block chance needs to have a  diminishing return effect for ~5-10s following a successful parry.  

Evasion diminishing returns effect after 4 evades... 4 evaded attacks is a lot for one vs one, but it's almost nothing if you're outnumbered.

I'd like to see evasion receive diminishing returns after 1-2 evaded attacks (based on real bushido & parry 1 evade/120.0 skill) from each individual attacker, this way it's equally useful against a single attacker as it is against multiple attackers.

for example

Player A Evades 2 attacks from Player B

Player A's Evasion chance is diminished by X% from Player B's attacks for the remaining duration of evasion.

Player A evades 2 attacks from player C

Player A's evasion chance is diminished by X% from Player C's attacks for the remaining duration of evasion.

Though I'll say, If it works as described in the OP it's better than it is on currently live shards. =]

Urge

We have their attention so keep the thread clean of what ifs and go generate some solid testing findings so we can get this done plz. Thanks.

xxxVideo

You guys completely destroyed 1 tile dexers with splintering nerf, 30 seconds cd on a thing you can't to choose WHEN you hit, its a random chance, while the problem was hybrid temps : mages with focus attack 60% splint.
Same goes for evasion, bushido dexers was nowhere near op, while bushido mages are op : they can cast, they can hit 50 hp nerves with 1.25, they have parry, they hit HARDER then dexers cuz they use elemental weapons plus they have all mage things on the top with swapping jewels to get animal form. This is hilarious.

The way you do changes in this game is just wrong, you can't listen to people who cry, you need to test yourself, this is a dead way, every single offense is being nerfed for years.
Pure mage can't kill decent player 1v1 today, cuz of amount of defence we have, eaters, regens, 150hp, 30-40hp heal pots, apples, etc etc.
As dexer you need at least double splint to kill decent guy, not going to happen since this nerf. And its aint a secret sometimes you forced to play dexers, when u ping 100+.

As a 1tiler player, guess thats my finish. GG, was fun.

Urge

10-15 sec on splinter

Cetric

Evade damage should be capped at a set amount of damage per evade cast.  That would fix alot right there.  Like 50-75 dmg or something.

Bleak

TC has been updated and patch notes adjusted,

Cazador

@Bleak Evasion should NOT absorb 100% of any damage. Increase the percentages or a successful evade and only absorb 30%-80% of damage based on bushido/parry/weapon skill measured in real skill on each tick.
 Example
(120Parry/120 bushido/120 weapon = 80% damage absorbed at first Evasion check.

60% second
40% third

     Also the requirement for weapon to evade shouldn’t be 50 with a mage weapon. That is still broken. 

Paithan

The splinter issue is when it procs back to back to back.  I think 15 seconds is even a bit long. People will pop apple and evasion on first splinter.. you should be able to splint them again with the cool downs up.  I would suggest a 5 second immunity after the splinter ends- or 10 from when the splint first hits.

The DR for evasion does not change a thing. I think you should have capped damage you are able to evade (when successfully evaded).  BUT- If you are going to stick with diminishing returns it should happen after the first evade and go down a lot faster than 8 spells.  First evade full 60%, second 50%, 3rd 40%, 4th 30%, 5th 15% and then stay there.  That will still be very powerful.

Shatter pots are really dumb. 1. They shouldn't fizzle a spell on top of breaking pots. 2. Cap the amount of pots shattered at a number like 5 or 10.  This will STILL be a troll mechanic either way. 3.  Have the person that shatters have to be within 2-3 tiles to shatter so someone can't throw one from across screen and run away.

Optimus

Bleak said:

The following changes have been implemented based on the feedback provided here and will be available for testing on TC as of today. We want to give everyone interested a time to provide feedback, so head on over to TC and check them out!  

• Bushido Evasion PvP is now subject to diminishing returns after the first evade which will increase with each evade. Diminishing return scales up to a max of 70% evasion reduction. For example, a player with a 60% chance to evade would be reduced to 18% at the max reduction.
• The weapon hit property Splintering PvP immunity now includes force walk and now lasts 15 seconds.
• Shatter Potions will now provide 60 seconds of PvP immunity once hit. Users of the shatter pots will be unable to hide for 6 seconds. There is also a chance for the number of potions shattered to be reduced.

Please keep the discussion related to the items listed above. These changes are not set in stone and we look forward to continuing the discussion.

This looks much better than the first iteration of changes. Almost perfect in my opinion.

Diminishing returns after 4 spells was too lackluster. It would have still been much too OP in smaller group fights.

15 seconds on splinter is right in that sweet spot. Splinter will still remain viable for 1on1s, and it will still be a big part of PvP, but no more 3+ focus attack splinters in a row. I think that focus attack should not have an effect on splinter, or maybe cap it out at 45-50%, but with these changes it should still be manageable.

The only other change I would make, is to give shatter potions a chance to destroy one's own potions, kinda like those bottles in the Bar room in Shadowguard have a chance to damage the player.

Really solid changes as they are right now though.

Optimus

Benelli said:

proposed changes seem great, besides nothing addressing the hybrid 840+ skill templates.

We should be wanting to see more innovative high skill templates. The only thing I don't like is seeing people swapping out hundreds of skill points in items mid-fight.

Fortis

add delay to jewels switch in combat

The_Higgs_1

I don't like splinter being reduced to 15s, especially combined with people using wall of stone scripts these days.  Put splintering back to at least 30s, by the time the last bleed tick finishes on first splinter they'll be able to splinter again.   Also please remove focus attack and specials from splinter procs as well.   These people that say they cant pvp without splinter are not the people to listen to,  Ive been killing people just fine for past 3 years without using a splinter weapon.  

I know its not listed in above changes but please think about putting in a small cooldown on wall of stone, its absolutely needed to fix current meta of 3rd party program issues.  Make people actually pvp instead of just pressing play.   

Bleak

I will be on TC1 by Yew Gate for a bit for those who would like to chat.

Cetric

• Bushido Evasion PvP is now subject to diminishing returns after the first evade which will increase with each evade. Diminishing return scales up to a max of 70% evasion reduction. For example, a player with a 60% chance to evade would be reduced to 18% at the max reduction.
• The weapon hit property Splintering PvP immunity now includes force walk and now lasts 15 seconds.
• Shatter Potions will now provide 60 seconds of PvP immunity once hit. Users of the shatter pots will be unable to hide for 6 seconds. There is also a chance for the number of potions shattered to be reduced.

looking better - and like that shatters may break less pots.  Could you give an example of what 5 evades would look like, starting at a 60% evasion chance?

Evade 1 % - 60%

Evade 2 % -

Evade 3 % -

Evade 4 % -

Evade 5 % -

60% splinter on focus attack should be discussed a bit.  I also think in this you could consider applying a diminishing returns to parry as well.  Say if you parry a shot, your next chance to parry is less and less until a hit gets through, then it resets.  Not a huge diminishing returns, but a slight scale.

I think the important thing in all of this to mention, is while splinter changes reduce offense, it should be important to reduce defense across the board.  Defenses have been going up in usage and ease of use, while there hasn't been any offensive buffs in a very long time, just offensive nerfs.  Things like return mortals to a pre nerf state, allowing splinter to proc with infectious strike, 35 damage composite bow armor ignores, and reducing the pet damage reduction from 30% to 20% just to name a few.

Paithan

Cetric said:

• Bushido Evasion PvP is now subject to diminishing returns after the first evade which will increase with each evade. Diminishing return scales up to a max of 70% evasion reduction. For example, a player with a 60% chance to evade would be reduced to 18% at the max reduction.
• The weapon hit property Splintering PvP immunity now includes force walk and now lasts 15 seconds.
• Shatter Potions will now provide 60 seconds of PvP immunity once hit. Users of the shatter pots will be unable to hide for 6 seconds. There is also a chance for the number of potions shattered to be reduced.

looking better - and like that shatters may break less pots.  Could you give an example of what 5 evades would look like, starting at a 60% evasion chance?

Evade 1 % - 60%

Evade 2 % -

Evade 3 % -

Evade 4 % -

Evade 5 % -

60% splinter on focus attack should be discussed a bit.  I also think in this you could consider applying a diminishing returns to parry as well.  Say if you parry a shot, your next chance to parry is less and less until a hit gets through, then it resets.  Not a huge diminishing returns, but a slight scale.

I think the important thing in all of this to mention, is while splinter changes reduce offense, it should be important to reduce defense across the board.  Defenses have been going up in usage and ease of use, while there hasn't been any offensive buffs in a very long time, just offensive nerfs.  Things like return mortals to a pre nerf state, allowing splinter to proc with infectious strike, 35 damage composite bow armor ignores, and reducing the pet damage reduction from 30% to 20% just to name a few.

I was going to ask for clarity on % chance of each evade as well.  

I'm fine with a 15 second immunity, but do think that will be a tad too long... I don't like it coinciding with apple cooldown.  I'd use the same timer as sleep.. 8 seconds? 10 seconds?


Cap pots shattered and make them be within 2-3 tiles. Either/both of those will go A LONG way.  Then you can at least run away from someone trying to troll you.

Cetric

thatd be good too, shatter range like 3 tiles.  clarity on the evade DR would help in evaluating.  if it diminishes like 5% per, thats nothing, if it diminishes like 20% per.. well thats something

Cetric

I dunno who suggested Shields should be disarmable again, but that'd be cool.  Thumbs up

The_Higgs_1

I think shields being disarmable would be ok but there would have to be a better requip setup for it and on dress macros as well.  Id rather see a dimish returns on parry cause some people rely on their shield for FC and other stats.

Cetric

Wouldn't be different than relying onur weap for specific stats and it being disarmable.  But ya, id like to see one or both