PvP Combat Changes - Evasion + Splintering

Paithan

DR on parry should be a thing.  

AngrySQ

Cetric said:

I dunno who suggested Shields should be disarmable again, but that'd be cool.  Thumbs up

The_Higgs_1 said:

I think shields being disarmable would be ok but there would have to be a better requip setup for it and on dress macros as well. 

OMG! did i just see enemy nations unite on a good topic!?! I would also like to see this happen please and thank you.

Shatter Pots look good like the changes.

Evasion...

I feel no change is needed to the equation/evade chance but just a larger penalty for hybrids templates or balaki staff users...

Evasion would simply be fixed if you added a 1-8 second slow walk(splinter walk) on spell activation. With the scale being based on the amount of REAL tactics a player has. Bushido and specifically evasion is for 1 tile dexers right??? This type of change should be no issue for true 1 tile templates. This change would fix soooooo much that is wrong with the hybrid templates/PVP currently because the real issue is not evasion as much as its how this is currently being utilized. We have all experienced countless times were we are fighting some one solo or as a group and you get them low and you lay down the kill shot but they just pop evade take zero damage at like 1% hp and proceed to run off screen and heal to full.... This spell is fine but you should not be able to run at full speed wail evading... like what the hell are you doing hopping in to another dimension or something... I would assume you would be pretty tied up trying to dodge spells and unable to move fast or at all during such a task...

This would keep samp's happy and fixes/removes a lot of the junk hybrid templates that seem to be making everyone so upset with UO...

to put a good example to this dearth strike is a very strong spell and requires so much skill to do full damage thus you give up quite a lot to use this spell. 

Evasion is a VERY VERY strong spell and should have a very strong penalty for those not fully qualified to use it. 

Cetric

That'd be really cool, just force walk when you cast evade

Cazador

Cetric said:

That'd be really cool, just force walk when you cast evade

The problem is, most are skirting around the issue as a whole because they don’t want to ruin their current 2 plat suit

xxxVideo

Can we have ninja animal form require real skill? Everyone just swapping jewels and mask to get those skill to form and run away, this makes already nerfed archers irrelevant even more since pointless dismounts.

Max_Blackoak

I'd like to point out again that evasion only needs nerfed on mages, not on bushido dexxers.
Could you make it similar to chivalry where when you have more than 69 magery the nerf applies but evasion stays the same for non-mages? Maybe include mysticism into that formula too.
@Bleak

Cetric

xxxVideo said:

Can we have ninja animal form require real skill? Everyone just swapping jewels and mask to get those skill to form and run away, this makes already nerfed archers irrelevant even more since pointless dismounts.

This ^.  maybe not real skill in general but i dunno, that whole thing is annoying

xxxVideo

Cetric said:

xxxVideo said:

Can we have ninja animal form require real skill? Everyone just swapping jewels and mask to get those skill to form and run away, this makes already nerfed archers irrelevant even more since pointless dismounts.

This ^.  maybe not real skill in general but i dunno, that whole thing is annoying

Animal form is actually best thing Ninjitsu can offer, its just broken you are getting this with 25 real skillpoints and gear you can instantly swap.

Cazador

I’m in for Magery req for Evasion, I have this odd feeling no one else is

Optimus

AngrySQ said:

Cetric said:

I dunno who suggested Shields should be disarmable again, but that'd be cool.  Thumbs up

The_Higgs_1 said:

I think shields being disarmable would be ok but there would have to be a better requip setup for it and on dress macros as well. 

OMG! did i just see enemy nations unite on a good topic!?! I would also like to see this happen please and thank you.

Shatter Pots look good like the changes.

Evasion...

I feel no change is needed to the equation/evade chance but just a larger penalty for hybrids templates or balaki staff users...

Evasion would simply be fixed if you added a 1-8 second slow walk(splinter walk) on spell activation. With the scale being based on the amount of REAL tactics a player has. Bushido and specifically evasion is for 1 tile dexers right??? This type of change should be no issue for true 1 tile templates. This change would fix soooooo much that is wrong with the hybrid templates/PVP currently because the real issue is not evasion as much as its how this is currently being utilized. We have all experienced countless times were we are fighting some one solo or as a group and you get them low and you lay down the kill shot but they just pop evade take zero damage at like 1% hp and proceed to run off screen and heal to full.... This spell is fine but you should not be able to run at full speed wail evading... like what the hell are you doing hopping in to another dimension or something... I would assume you would be pretty tied up trying to dodge spells and unable to move fast or at all during such a task...

This would keep samp's happy and fixes/removes a lot of the junk hybrid templates that seem to be making everyone so upset with UO...

to put a good example to this dearth strike is a very strong spell and requires so much skill to do full damage thus you give up quite a lot to use this spell. 

Evasion is a VERY VERY strong spell and should have a very strong penalty for those not fully qualified to use it. 

Slow walking while casting evade isn't a "terrible" idea, but I don't see it as the best option. Don't think we should be worrying about how realistic the casting of a spell while running is, it's magic in a video game, plenty of things don't make sense, let's just worry about balancing the mechanics.

Literally every template out there now is a "hybrid" template, and they should be encouraged. When was the last time you ran into a competitive straight up bushido dexer no other "schools of magic/skill"? If there is going to be some penalty for "unqualified" bushido users, it should apply to any and all schools of magic/skill, not just balakai/magery users. Because I can pretty much guarantee that whatever the template left with an essentially full powered evasion is going to become the flavour of the month, and make up a huge chunk of what people play.

Evasion is extremely overpowered across the board, and needs a serious adjustment to the way it works for everybody....with the exception of PvMers, I really couldn't care less how it works in PvM, so if they have a strong opinion on that, hopefully it is taken into account and the devs can make it work for them.

Optimus

xxxVideo said:

Can we have ninja animal form require real skill? Everyone just swapping jewels and mask to get those skill to form and run away, this makes already nerfed archers irrelevant even more since pointless dismounts.

I know this thread is supposed to stay on topic, but you're definitely correct, something needs to be done about literally everybody having animal form without actually having the actual skill to do so due to the instant item swaps.

Urge

Evasion disarm archers. There were many good suggestions posted above but if you combine the player proposed changes of disarmed shields, magic penalty for evasion and full evasion for full bushido templates this is what will be Fotm. It will be equally as annoying as a current splinter spam.

Diminishing returns or even a hard cap on the amount evade can deflect seems to be the most logical across the board.

I would even go a step further and add a slight decrease to parry as well while slightly increasing SDI for pure mages to offset.

AngrySQ

Optimus said

"Literally every template out there now is a "hybrid" template, and they should be ENCOURAGED."

Optimus said

I know this thread is supposed to stay on topic, but you're definitely correct, something needs to be done about literally everybody having animal form without actually having the actual skill to do so due to the instant item swaps.

Man you sure are special... Says hybrids should be encouraged then complains about hybrids in the next post... You are also getting at the larger isssue.  Evasion and ninja should not have to be on every template inorder to PVP... I would love to see evasion with a forced walk of 1-8 seconds based on real tactics. This would acutally force people to play different temples. It would also force people to have more dedicated roles in PvP beacuse you would not be able to do everything in one temp. It's like every one wants to be able to do it all on one temp but wants everyone else to be kill-able by there temp... It makes no sense. 

Optimus

AngrySQ said:

Optimus said

"Literally every template out there now is a "hybrid" template, and they should be ENCOURAGED."

Optimus said

I know this thread is supposed to stay on topic, but you're definitely correct, something needs to be done about literally everybody having animal form without actually having the actual skill to do so due to the instant item swaps.

Man you sure are special... Says hybrids should be encouraged then complains about hybrids in the next post... You are also getting at the larger isssue.  Evasion and ninja should not have to be on every template inorder to PVP... I would love to see evasion with a forced walk of 1-8 seconds based on real tactics. This would acutally force people to play different temples. It would also force people to have more dedicated roles in PvP beacuse you would not be able to do everything in one temp. It's like every one wants to be able to do it all on one temp but wants everyone else to be kill-able by there temp... It makes no sense. 

There is a huge difference between building a character to be a hybrid and swapping out entire suits and skill sets with the push of a button, on the run, in the middle of a fight. You think the video game toon would have trouble casting a spell while running, but not with changing half his outfit? My logic is based off balancing game mechanics, not what I imagine a magical video game character could do... in reality. Special, eh?

Aside from that, I don't see the slow walk/tactics combo being the best option. Evasion is most used/effective when splintered, so getting tactics up high enough to keep the evasion walk timer 3 seconds or less, and saving evades for splinters is going to become SOP. It isn't doing enough reduce evasion in strength, which in turn won't promote template diversity. You're just going to see a bunch of hybrid bushido dexers and bush/tact[bok] mages with the occasional archer/utility/other temp peppered in, not much different from today.

Not to mention that evasion in 1on1s, or smaller fight situations would be just as OP as ever with those "changes". Just stay on screen and completely eat 60% of any damage. Nah, not good enough.

Diminishing returns across the board is the best option so far, imo.

Paithan

The idea of taking evasion away from just mages is silly.  Evasion is overpowered.  It needs nerfed across the board.  Not sure why people think if you don't cast you should get extra benefits and be able to use everything to full effect.

Force walking to use an evade is a terrible idea.
4/6 chiv has needed an overhaul for 15 years.
Shatter pots are a product of clueless devs that aren't willing to admit they made a mistake.  Remember when they though 50 damage, uninterruptable holy fists was the right call?

Cetric

think you could fix the jewel swap animal form thing if there was a delay in adding the +skill. Say you put the bracelet on and it took 10 seconds before the +skill showed up.  Thatd take care of that too.

xxxVideo

Cetric said:

think you could fix the jewel swap animal form thing if there was a delay in adding the +skill. Say you put the bracelet on and it took 10 seconds before the +skill showed up.  Thatd take care of that too.

nope, 10 seconds is nothing, one teleport away, one teleport ring, and boom u are morphed. can we stop seeing all in one templates ? 25 real skillpoints for animal form is a nonsence. should be real skill.

Cetric

I agree with you, but I hate when stuffs based on real skill.  Like what if you have 90 ninja but your jewels have 35 +ninja just ruins alot of jewels in the process.

Heck if you were a 120 ninja skill deathstriker but most of your +skill was in ninja it'd even ruin that. 

xxxVideo

90 is more then enuf for animal form so you are all good.
heck if you are a bushido mage and most of your +skill is bushido you are screwed cuz nerve damage is based on real skill. 

Optimus

I'd say not being allowed to cast spells in addition to not being able to use items for 10-15 seconds after a skill change would be enough to nullify the animal form skill swapping. Maybe add in a slow walk as well just for good measure.

It won't totally fix the issue of mid-fight template changing, but it's a start. This would need a bigger fix like being unable to swap armor/jewels while in battle, but still be able to change weapons obviously. Sounds like a nightmare to get all the intricacies right though.

Cetric

xxxVideo said:

90 is more then enuf for animal form so you are all good.
heck if you are a bushido mage and most of your +skill is bushido you are screwed cuz nerve damage is based on real skill. 

Exactly, and its annoying lol

I suppose if you were required to have the minimum as real skill thatd be good, i think its 75?  Sort of like having to have real 60 tactics.  But people would still jewel up to a higher amount for not failing.

Bleak did say to keep on topic, but its admittedly hard to not point out all areas of concern.  If ur willing to make some changes now though, lets get it all out there.  Lets buff some stuff too, throw some more damage out there.  raise pure mage sdi to 30, raise comp bows ai to 35, things like that.  Dexers feel like they got shafted, and its hard to look at armor ignores cap being 35 when nerve strike off a lowly bokuto can do that much or better.  Maybe raise the comp bow to 35, melee weap armor ignore to 40.  Nerfs arent always fun, but they are necessary - offensive buffs get people excited again though.

Urge

40 damage Ai's mean nothing if you cannot land. I'd rather leave damage as is and find a happy balance between hit and parry. I do fully agree a pure mage needs an increase.

hunter11

i do agree that the evasion nerf should be added to people who posses a school of magic ie, Magery, Necromancy, Mysticism, and spellweaving over a certain% or perhaps a smaller evasion reduction to a one tile bushido dexxer 

Paithan

Optimus said:

I know this thread is supposed to stay on topic, but you're definitely correct, something needs to be done about literally everybody having animal form without actually having the actual skill to do so due to the instant item swaps.

I think everyone can agree that popping anniversary horses with 0 skill requirement is worse than investing skill to animal form.  I would like to see them implement a change to that so you have to summon the horse.  It is extremely overpowered and abused by certain guilds.

The_Higgs_1

How about instead of all this nonsense you guys spewed, just add a hard skill cap in pvp.  And if you complain about how you spent 5 plat on a suit, sorry you just need to adapt.  There is no reason for people to have 840+ skill points on a template in pvp, unless your just bad at it.  

Lynk

There is plenty of reasons to do an 840 skill point template.  One of my favorite things to do in UO is come up with unique templates.  Its really hard to hit 840 skills and not have huge holes in your suit.  Its hard to even do 800.

I agree that evade nerf should impact everyone not just mages.  

Cazador

You guys do realize these “nerfs” do very little and I think that’s strategic to not ruin your character ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Shatter potions..should NOT exist. Period @Bleak. Bad implementation. Ever try to play an archer/swords elf with 4-5 bows 2-3 weps and 15 of each potion.. lol.

Evasion in itself isn’t broken. The problem is having high defense mages that can form, eveade, confidence on the run with 50 weapon skill. A simple evasion fix isn’t depreciating returns etc etc and have everyone like Cetric pull out his abacus to figure out sweet spots. Just make it absorb x% Of damage  based on Real Bushido/Weapon Skill. It would virtually eliminate -mage weapon 50 skill evades and open up other play styles.

Notice no one mentions mana shield? Moving on...

Since you guys thought it would be smart to ruin SDI mages. Which I for one was sooo against and predicted exactly this. You guys insisted..to quote! “It will Even the play field” none of that happened. Non Parry Mages are absolutely destroyed. If anything they need a huge buff. Leave the parry dropping SDI to 20, and increase cap SDI back to 40% with scribe and no parry. They’re squishy anyways.

I’m happy with any splinter fix. Double/Triple splinters is broke. I would petition to add a double immunity/debuff personally. Example
if Player A splinters Player B. Player A’s weapon goes on “Splinter Cooldown” for 5 seconds. And Player B goes on force walk immunity(not bleed) for 15 seconds. The reason for the attackers cool down. Is to not needlessly break your weapon in vain. 

Optimus

Paithan said:

Optimus said:

I know this thread is supposed to stay on topic, but you're definitely correct, something needs to be done about literally everybody having animal form without actually having the actual skill to do so due to the instant item swaps.

I think everyone can agree that popping anniversary horses with 0 skill requirement is worse than investing skill to animal form.  I would like to see them implement a change to that so you have to summon the horse.  It is extremely overpowered and abused by certain guilds.

No, not everybody would agree. I think that swapping out potentially hundreds of skill points to change your template on the run, in battle, while casting spells, is a bigger deal than a handful of people that have to stop moving for 2+ seconds on foot to use an item that costs a few 100k a shot, and trying to get on the freshly made low HP/low resist/low stamina mount it pops, while getting wailed on by [insert number here] people, who are often spamming area spells. Although I do agree that some sort of change should be made, an additional uninterruptible timer put into place, like with teleport rings or invis items.

The_Higgs_1

The problem I think still comes back to so much +skill templates.  Its going to be incredibly difficult to balance pvp around such high skill increase, itll take too many nerfs/adjustments to create a decent balance.   If skill increase was capped at say 750 it would only take a small amount of nerfs to create a really nice balance.  This fixes the skill swapping mid fight and most of the broken templates in the game and just these current fixes above would get the game back to better skilled pvp.

xxxVideo

Cazador said:

You guys do realize these “nerfs” do very little and I think that’s strategic to not ruin your character ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Shatter potions..should NOT exist. Period @ Bleak. Bad implementation. Ever try to play an archer/swords elf with 4-5 bows 2-3 weps and 15 of each potion.. lol.

Evasion in itself isn’t broken. The problem is having high defense mages that can form, eveade, confidence on the run with 50 weapon skill. A simple evasion fix isn’t depreciating returns etc etc and have everyone like Cetric pull out his abacus to figure out sweet spots. Just make it absorb x% Of damage  based on Real Bushido/Weapon Skill. It would virtually eliminate -mage weapon 50 skill evades and open up other play styles.

Notice no one mentions mana shield? Moving on...

Since you guys thought it would be smart to ruin SDI mages. Which I for one was sooo against and predicted exactly this. You guys insisted..to quote! “It will Even the play field” none of that happened. Non Parry Mages are absolutely destroyed. If anything they need a huge buff. Leave the parry dropping SDI to 20, and increase cap SDI back to 40% with scribe and no parry. They’re squishy anyways.

I’m happy with any splinter fix. Double/Triple splinters is broke. I would petition to add a double immunity/debuff personally. Example
if Player A splinters Player B. Player A’s weapon goes on “Splinter Cooldown” for 5 seconds. And Player B goes on force walk immunity(not bleed) for 15 seconds. The reason for the attackers cool down. Is to not needlessly break your weapon in vain. 

This. Except attacker cd on splintering. You guys completely forgetting about dexers. Poisoning splintering was nerfed due to mages, and dexers got screwed with that, now you are going to completely destroy them.