High Seas Update: Treasure Chests & MIB Treasures

Kyronix

@Drakelord check out how the conversation related to Mining, Remove Trap, and Detecting Hidden has evolved. I also updated the previous post to prevent further confusion. If you could remove the need for mining - how would you change your template, how you do T-maps?

Drakelord

Petra_Fyde

Kyronix said:

For those who are thinking DH would be required should we do anything with Remove Trap as it relates to treasure chests...the DH requirement for Remote Trap would no longer apply - so you'd be switching out Mining (which would be covered by Cartography) with Remove Trap.  So we are talking about a 1:1 skill switch, not a 1:2.

Thank you, that sounds much more doable - But will you be divorcing detect from remove trap so that we can train it?  Currently you can't begin to train remove trap till you have 50 detect, and if you then drop detect, remove trap stops working.

Drakelord

During the halloween event I took my Myst mage remove myst and med off and put on Remove Trap and Detecting Hidden along with lock picking that I stole off my thief, this is where those skills need to be in a dungeon not in the woods digging up chest.  Unless you going to bump the total skills points a character can have here there is no way a tamer can be a t hunter if you did this.

Bilbo

popps said:

Bilbo said:

popps said:

By the way, @ Kyronix , will it be possible to have more then 1 Ship in the Sea per account ?

I am asking, because I am currently heavily doing fishing trying to "catch up" after having been away for long.... and my ship's Hold is filled with fish and anything I need for fishing Quests, of course...

Which it means, that I could not use it for Ship combat as I do not want to risk losing all the work so far done fishing....

Sure, I could empty the Hold when I need to engage into Ship combat but it would be a pain having to switch back and forth with the Ship from fishing to going into Ship combat....

Therefore, my question about the need to be able to have more then 1 Ship at Sea per account.... so that I can have 1 for my Fishing quests and another to enjoy Ship combat content that will be provided by the High Seas Update.....

Thanks !

Deed the fish and take them to your bank or house.

As I said, I know it "can" be done but it still would be a pain if one needs to switch from fishing to Ship Combat all the time....

Fill up hold for fishing, empty hold when going Ship combat, rinse and repeat any time over and over one needs to change type of playing...

A pain....

Being able, instead, to have a second boat, would solve this with no pain....

And people have been doing just that for years without a problem.  Try using one of the larger ships as they hold more weight.  My fish/crab chest weighs 248,437 stones so even running any of the large ships wouldn't help one bit.  You really do need to put your fish/crab collection in your bank/house and stop trying to play your fisherman out of your ship.  And if you are switching from fishing to combat all the time may I suggest you fish in another spot not near the pirates.

popps

Kyronix said:

You wouldn't need Detecting Hidden.  I'm saying that outright - if we were to incorporate Remove Trap in any meaningful way, you wouldn't need Detecting Hidden.  DH has a well versed use in finding hidden things in quest chains, and in dungeon chests.  We don't need it here.  

@ popps - if you aren't running lockpicking on your TH, how are you opening chests?  Magic Unlock? Skeleton keys?  Please also remember we are talking about removing mining as a requirement, and moving the search radius bonus to cartography - which frees up a skill.

If I am understanding it right, basically the need to have Remove Trap might be connected with the fact that not having Remove Trap and using it on the Chest would have the Trap go off and, thus, destroy the additional secret compartment/pouch special bonus content ?

As in regards to Lockpicking needs, perhaps some additional items with high +Lockpicking skill such as Talismans, Cloaks, Hats, shoes, etc. could be released which, in addition with Skeleton Keys (regular, not necessarily the Master Skeleton keys which are too scarce), might free up "real" skill points on the Template by having Lockpicking skill points on items rather then real ?

This way, Treasure Hunter templates could still find ways to have their Treasure Hunter one way or the other be able to have Lockpicking skill albeit not hurting too much the necessity to also have other skills for combat and the likes...

Merus

Kyronix said:

You wouldn't need Detecting Hidden.  I'm saying that outright - if we were to incorporate Remove Trap in any meaningful way, you wouldn't need Detecting Hidden.  DH has a well versed use in finding hidden things in quest chains, and in dungeon chests.  We don't need it here.  

@ popps - if you aren't running lockpicking on your TH, how are you opening chests?  Magic Unlock? Skeleton keys?  Please also remember we are talking about removing mining as a requirement, and moving the search radius bonus to cartography - which frees up a skill.

Personally, and for what I would assume for most treasure hunters, we have already adapted to leaving mining off of our templates since we have the locker.  Adding in RT as the only means to get the new bonus will not be a trade between mining and RT, it will be a trade between another skill (most likely combat related) in order to fit it in.

I am personally not of fan of adding more skill requirements for the sake of mechanics (Cartography, mining, DH, RT, and lock picking) that serve only to find and open a chest.  I just don’t feel like those “mechanics” add to the fun of a map, they just add complexity and some tedium.

Drakelord

Kyronix said:

@ Drakelord check out how the conversation related to Mining, Remove Trap, and Detecting Hidden has evolved. I also updated the previous post to prevent further confusion. If you could remove the need for mining - how would you change your template, how you do T-maps?

Cartography should be enough to determined the location of the t map, just as Fishing is enough to determined the location of the SOS "Travelling to the location the message specifies gives you the chance to attempt to fish a chest up from the ocean floor, though at least 65.0 skill points in Fishing are required for a chance of succeeding."  When we open a SOS there is a full set of Coors there, why not have the same for the map with GM Cartography.  However still going to play tipps with skills for a tamer/mage that has to have taming/lore/vet/magery/med/lockpicking/Cartography by throwing Remove Trap, and Detecting Hidden on an already stress out t hunter.

Kyronix

@Petra_Fyde - if we were to make a meaningful change to Remove Trap in this regard, yes - the requirement for Detecting Hidden would be removed.  There really is no point to having the skills linked together anymore.

@Drakelord - you need to provide some context if you could to what you are trying to say with the skill screenshots you posted.  What level chests are you doing?  Are you doing them all by yourself with a single character?

The broader concern over Remove Trap is that it serves little, if any, purpose anywhere in game.  The same impact for investing in a skill can be obtained with a scroll purchasable from an NPC (save for Siege).  This results in an often asked for request - "Make the useless skills worthwhile again".  That's what we are talking about at this point in the thread.

Let me reiterate and summarize some of what is on the table for those joining the conversation later in the thread...

• Condensing the number of treasure map levels from 7 to 5, existing maps would convert to the new scheme.
• Rebalancing the levels so 1-3 could be done solo, and 4-5 would be more geared towards group efforts.
• Moving the mass quantities of resources out of higher level chests into lower level chests, so should you wish to acquire resources you could target lower level maps for that purpose.
• Reducing the quantity of equipment but increasing the quality.  This would be subject to very fine and hardline balancing.  Not every item you pull out of a 4 or 5 is going to be an uber-item despite the reduction in quantity, or the desire for the to be.
• Mining would no longer be required to gain a bonus to chest detection distance.  The effect would be migrated to Cartography.
• Magic Unlock would continue to work on lower level maps, lockpicking would be required for higher end.
• Remove Trap would become more useful in some context of Treasure Chests.  The exact nature is TBD, but some thoughts are to untrap chests in leiu of telekensis and/or accessing additional loot in the chest, removing traps that are protecting the treasure chest itself (Think of a blend between Champ Spawns, The Curse of Oak Island, and the final scene of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade).  This would mean you do not need Detecting Hidden in any context to train/use Remove Trap.
• Reducing SoS to "regular" and "ancient' and providing additional salvage items to be fished up before the chest is recovered and re-balancing the loot in those chests to distinguish them from Treasure Chests.

Thanks again for everyone's participation - look forward to the continued conversation!

Again let me reiterate - nothing is final, this is all subject to change.

Kyronix

Merus said:

Personally, and for what I would assume for most treasure hunters, we have already adapted to leaving mining off of our templates since we have the locker.  Adding in RT as the only means to get the new bonus will not be a trade between mining and RT, it will be a trade between another skill (most likely combat related) in order to fit it in.

I am personally not of fan of adding more skill requirements for the sake of mechanics (Cartography, mining, DH, RT, and lock picking) that serve only to find and open a chest.  I just don’t feel like those “mechanics” add to the fun of a map, they just add complexity and some tedium.

In reality what you are saying is that the entire T-Map process has been reduced to an exercise in killing the guardians and snagging the loot.  If we remove the "hunt" part of it, all that's left is the treasure.  Half the fun of opening a treasure is the hunt of finding it, somewhere along the way we lost that.  Getting some of that back shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing.

jaytin

Cartography should be required to find the spot, why would you need to have detect hidden to find the chest if you know where to dig? Is it invisible? I actually do have mining on my t-hunter, I just don't see the point of swapping mining for detect hidden, change for the sake of change is not always a good idea. We have quite a few viable t-hunter templates just now, why force people who are happy to all swap to something else? 

Mariah

I think you've missed some posts Jaytin. Detect hidden will not be needed. Read back a bit.

jaytin

I hate playing catch up! *goes off to read*

The_Higgs_1

Just don't make t-hunting more grindy.  The more grindy things get in this game the less likely people will do them.  We don't live in Britannia we just play here when we have time.

Faeryl

@Kyronix

I have a question regarding the potential change from 1-7 levels down to 1-5, and the 1-3 being solo and 4-5 requiring groups...

Currently SoTs can be recovered from level 4+ maps in Felucca. Would those be moved to the soloable 1-3 levels, or left in the 4-5 level group maps?

Merus

Kyronix said:

Merus said:

Personally, and for what I would assume for most treasure hunters, we have already adapted to leaving mining off of our templates since we have the locker.  Adding in RT as the only means to get the new bonus will not be a trade between mining and RT, it will be a trade between another skill (most likely combat related) in order to fit it in.

I am personally not of fan of adding more skill requirements for the sake of mechanics (Cartography, mining, DH, RT, and lock picking) that serve only to find and open a chest.  I just don’t feel like those “mechanics” add to the fun of a map, they just add complexity and some tedium.

In reality what you are saying is that the entire T-Map process has been reduced to an exercise in killing the guardians and snagging the loot.  If we remove the "hunt" part of it, all that's left is the treasure.  Half the fun of opening a treasure is the hunt of finding it, somewhere along the way we lost that.  Getting some of that back shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing.

I’m just not seeing how training up another skill whose only purpose in the entire process (or game) is to add another layer of complexity for a single character to open a chest adds to the “hunt”.

For solo maps all that you’ve added changed is using remove trap instead of telekinesis... at the cost of 100 skill points.  I don’t see any additional “fun” in that for the solo maps.

For the more difficult group maps, you’ve relegated what was already a tight template (to be both able to dig up the chest, open it, and participate in the fighting) into another mule character that will be brought in on an extra account and hidden off screen while the battle with the guardians takes place.

I do understand that you want treasure hunts to feel like a more immersive experience, I just don’t think adding another skill that will be trained up far from a treasure map and translates into a few more mouse clicks in a context menu accomplishs that.

Perhaps instead of requiring the RT skill, a trap removal kit could drop on one of the guardians corpses.  Like the feather in the belfry.  Just an idea that would mirror the effect you’re talking about to remove the trap without the skill investment?

Faeryl

100 remove trap
100 lockpicking
100 cartography
110 taming
110 lore
100 magery
100 vet or eval...

Honestly... even with remove trap a half decent tamer/mage/treasure hunter is still viable

Dramora

I hope you rethink the levels. I would be happier if levels one through four are more geared towards solo and only five is more geared towards group. If you choose to do your maps solo, like a lot of us, and the higher level gear, etc is more in the level four and five chests (that would require a group), that would mean us solo treasure hunters would not get a chance for the higher level stuff.

I know some treasure hunters will most likely figure out how to do all of the maps solo. But some of us don't have the time to perfect the craft to that degree.

Kyronix

@Faeryl and @Dramora - assume everything about where different loot spawns in the levels is going to be rebalanced to the new levels - so you won't ever be in a situation where you are "cut off" from higher level loot.

Drakelord

Kyronix said:

@ Drakelord - you need to provide some context if you could to what you are trying to say with the skill screenshots you posted.  What level chests are you doing?  Are you doing them all by yourself with a single character?

My t hunter can do level 1-5 by herself, levels 6-7 is a group effort.  She use a fully trained up myst/mare for 1-4 and a frost dragon for levels 5-7.  Level 5 is a hit and run hunt, where as 1-4 I stand my ground and fight.  6-7 is also a hit and run with friends

Faeryl

@Kyronix Hmm... Alright. I'm mostly just curious because that's one of my main targets when I treasure hunt. 

Parnoc

popps said:

By the way, @ Kyronix , will it be possible to have more then 1 Ship in the Sea per account ?

I am asking, because I am currently heavily doing fishing trying to "catch up" after having been away for long.... and my ship's Hold is filled with fish and anything I need for fishing Quests, of course...

Which it means, that I could not use it for Ship combat as I do not want to risk losing all the work so far done fishing....

Sure, I could empty the Hold when I need to engage into Ship combat but it would be a pain having to switch back and forth with the Ship from fishing to going into Ship combat....

Therefore, my question about the need to be able to have more then 1 Ship at Sea per account.... so that I can have 1 for my Fishing quests and another to enjoy Ship combat content that will be provided by the High Seas Update.....

Thanks !

Ships are one per character, not one per account and all characters on the same account are treated as highest level security without having to set it, you can even drydock a ship from another character on that same account.

Drakelord

Faeryl said:

100 remove trap
100 lockpicking
100 cartography
110 taming
110 lore
100 magery
100 vet or eval...

Honestly... even with remove trap a half decent tamer/mage/treasure hunter is still viable

you have no Med

Faeryl

Drakelord said:

Faeryl said:

100 remove trap
100 lockpicking
100 cartography
110 taming
110 lore
100 magery
100 vet or eval...

Honestly... even with remove trap a half decent tamer/mage/treasure hunter is still viable

you have no Med

I get by with no med fairly easily if I do it right. Focus on the mobs with area effects (liches, etc) first, then just vet as needed. It's generally not that difficult. I solo 1-6 mostly, and occasionally 7s

Kyronix

Merus said:

Kyronix said:

Merus said:

Personally, and for what I would assume for most treasure hunters, we have already adapted to leaving mining off of our templates since we have the locker.  Adding in RT as the only means to get the new bonus will not be a trade between mining and RT, it will be a trade between another skill (most likely combat related) in order to fit it in.

I am personally not of fan of adding more skill requirements for the sake of mechanics (Cartography, mining, DH, RT, and lock picking) that serve only to find and open a chest.  I just don’t feel like those “mechanics” add to the fun of a map, they just add complexity and some tedium.

In reality what you are saying is that the entire T-Map process has been reduced to an exercise in killing the guardians and snagging the loot.  If we remove the "hunt" part of it, all that's left is the treasure.  Half the fun of opening a treasure is the hunt of finding it, somewhere along the way we lost that.  Getting some of that back shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing.

I’m just not seeing how training up another skill whose only purpose in the entire process (or game) is to add another layer of complexity for a single character to open a chest adds to the “hunt”.

For solo maps all that you’ve added changed is using remove trap instead of telekinesis... at the cost of 100 skill points.  I don’t see any additional “fun” in that for the solo maps.

For the more difficult group maps, you’ve relegated what was already a tight template (to be both able to dig up the chest, open it, and participate in the fighting) into another mule character that will be brought in on an extra account and hidden off screen while the battle with the guardians takes place.

I do understand that you want treasure hunts to feel like a more immersive experience, I just don’t think adding another skill that will be trained up far from a treasure map and translates into a few more mouse clicks in a context menu accomplishs that.

Perhaps instead of requiring the RT skill, a trap removal kit could drop on one of the guardians corpses.  Like the feather in the belfry.  Just an idea that would mirror the effect you’re talking about to remove the trap without the skill investment?

Right now the skill has no purpose, which offers a unique opportunity to explore some novel applications for it to become useful in a system that makes thematic sense.  I'm not talking about adding a "few clicks to the context menu" I'm looking at something more immersive and robust than that.  Think along the lines of plague beasts and power generators.  That's where we can add to the hunt.  I'm not saying every chest has it - but think about it?  If I'm a Dread Pirate burying my very best loot, I'm going to make sure that the booty is protected and being a trap expert is going to give you the skills to overcome that protection. 

"Fun" is a subjective perspective.  If there's a trapped compartment inside the chest and I have to figure out a mechanic to gain access to a reward, and my Remove Trap skill is going to offer me a leg up on that mechanic - that's fun to me, may be fun for others, may not be fun for you.  So it's kind of a hard to use "make it fun" as a true barometer.  

I'm confused about your statement here, 

"For the more difficult group maps, you’ve relegated what was already a tight template (to be both able to dig up the chest, open it, and participate in the fighting) into another mule character that will be brought in on an extra account and hidden off screen while the battle with the guardians takes place."

By the very definition of a group map, you are doing the chest with multiple people.  At that point a utility template for participating in the hunt makes sense, but that's not what the encounter is.  Let's break it down...

-You need to decode the map with Cartography.
-You already know exactly where to go to get the chest via Davies locker, or just looking at the map depending on the client you are using.  No real need for mining to help find it.
-You need lockpicking to unlock the chest.
-You don't need anything except telekinesis and 4 tiles to avoid the traps - which means the traps are pointless at this point.
 
So really the only "treasure hunting" is decoding a map you'll know the exact location of, unlocking a locked chest and dry looting it in what is really not very treasure-hunty but rather a combat encounter.  You are 100% right - the T-Hunter is a mule character, moving the needle in the other way to make it a viable and engaging profession is a goal.

The goal should always be to reward skill investment - that's one of the core principles of the game world.  We've gotten too far away from that and moving the needle in the other direction should be welcome.

popps

Faeryl said:

100 remove trap
100 lockpicking
100 cartography
110 taming
110 lore
100 magery
100 vet or eval...

Honestly... even with remove trap a half decent tamer/mage/treasure hunter is still viable

The problem I see is the masteries needing to work off of real skill, not of items with +skill points...

Faeryl

popps said:

Faeryl said:

100 remove trap
100 lockpicking
100 cartography
110 taming
110 lore
100 magery
100 vet or eval...

Honestly... even with remove trap a half decent tamer/mage/treasure hunter is still viable

The problem I see is the masteries needing to work off of real skill, not of items with +skill points...

I'm not sure where you're getting that problem... do the math. What I have listed adds up to 720. Perfectly reasonable. You can add other things like med or some vet or eval with jewelry, or tweak the numbers a bit per what you need, but generally, this is a perfectly viable template, and is basically the one I currently already use, with the exception of remove trap, where I currently have mining. 

Urge

Kyronix not to jump off topic but while you're doing this, could you revamp dungeon chests. Maybe detect to find them and make it a little worthwhile to open. Thank you. 

KHAN

@Kyronix Whatever happens, I would LOVE to be able to see the location coordinates ON THE MAP, in CC. Instead of having to write them all down when I take them from the Davies Locker. It is a MESS if you die trying to remember which map belongs with which set of coordinates. But if I am wishing, how about a "grid view" for CC. I hate having to switch to EC just to sort the loot.

Yadd_of_Legends

popps said:

"Liked the idea of rebalancing map levels into a small set.  1-5 definitely sounds better than 1-8."

Did I miss anything ? Are there Treasure Maps of Level 8 currently available ?
I thought that Level 7 was currently the highest level T-Map...

Popps, I'll step in as interpreter here Kyronix was saying he didn't like the idea of adding another map level that would create a Level 8 map, and even the current seven levels is too much - so he would favor reducing the number of levels rather than adding another one