What Is The Real World Official Stance On Using Scripts?

Seth

ForeverFun said:

ForeverFun said:

I imagine it wouldn't be rocket science for the UO server to detect "unauthorized" clients interacting with it.  It's then a policy decision what to do about accounts where this is detected..

A google search might turn up scripts that sound like they fully automate the egg collecting process, turn in, reward collection, etc.

Of course, there's the likely EJ account mis-use angle to consider.

Put some systemic curbs on EJ accounts:

1. EJ accounts can no longer be in Felucca.
2. EJ accounts cannot pickup event items like eggs.  (good suggestion from somebody else).
3. EJ accounts cannot get drops during events.

Pawain said:

AmberWitch said:

This is getting off track. Simply looking for a truthful answer as to whether or not attended scripting in now legal and allowed.

You need to define scripting.  IMO these EC macros they are showing us how to make is scripting.

Most things are compared to me using CC only.

I really do not think anyone from UO is going to answer your question.

If you are attended and doing something you can do with just EC or CC then it must be ok.  If it is not, then you will just get a warning if using a paid account.

Re-read what I posted above. 

Do a google search.

Recalling around to every location in a runebook, walking to any eggs on screen, picking up eggs, insuring the eggs in the backpack, recalling to a crystal ball that then takes you outside destard (and cannot be blocked), turning in marked quest items, claiming rewards, using an EJ account with basically zero skills and zero risk, hours on end, triggered by a single click ...  This should sound pretty familiar to those on several shards.

That's a little different than holding down CTRL-SHIFT in EC, with an EC tweak posted in this forum, to pickup the egg that is nearby.

I imagine most of this (and related issues) can be mitigated by curbing EJ account usage.

One can study up on client/server models to understand how it may be possible to detect "unauthorized" clients.

Yep, they need to understand the power of the dark, dark side. EC scripts are just minor tweaks, and the difference is HuGE

Yoshi

Removed

Pawain

Yoshi said:

“A lot of misinformation in this thread,
when you log into UO, if you try to log in using a non - patched client, the login is rejected by the server. So UO must know what client and version you are using in order to accept the log in, they are actively allowing log ins from third party clients. 

A player can instantly tell if another player is using an official client or not, there is no auto run around objects on official classic client, so why would broadsword not be able to tell?”

You are contradicting yourself.  You said it rejects a non approved client then you said it lets them log on.

Clear it up with Q and A.

1.  Can someone log into UO without using EC or CC?  Meaning those are not running at all.

If yes, shouldn't they be able to not let that log in?  You are putting your account name and password in their client?

Or do those interfaces run on top of EC or CC?  Like Pincos  and UOA.

Yoshi

“I said it rejects non patched. Meaning old clients.

Please stop referencing the unofficial clients in your posts. Failure to do so will lead to a suspension of your posting ability."

Relvinian

Yoshi said:

“I said it rejects non patched. Meaning old clients.

Please stop referencing the unofficial clients in your posts. Failure to do so will lead to a suspension of your posting ability."

Hi Yoshi I don’t post here often but lurk and have wondered are you a moderator or employee here? 

Yoshi

“Absolutely not.

I am just assuming that rules do not apply to only me.”

keven2002

Seth said:

EC scripts is far less powerful but even if it's possible we need to know how to script. The CC 3rd party just let you "Record" actions. It's like the record macro function is Microsoft office so you don't even need to write the script.

For some advance CC scripts programs there is a wiki and ready made scripts which anyone can download and modify to suit one's need. EC doesn't have that, it's either Pinco or good luck asking someone to fix an UI issue here.

Interesting... tell me more 

I don't use third 3rd party programs so I can't speak to them or how they work. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to being able to record a macro based on clicks / etc and being able to put that on a single button (ie press a button and target all 10 eggs I need to turn in). I don't think anyone would really be opposed to that. I think the problem comes into play when people are basically taking that piece of harmless QoL macro and then adding it to a very complex scripted macro that essentially allows them to play the game without any interaction.

Seth

I won't promote using the scripts with CC, but stating that it's no secret and not surprising that a 1997 software cannot stop 3rd party.

I am collecting eggs in EC with just simple object filter plus pickup macro. I am happy if I can press a button to pick up what I need, and not having to drag into bag. 

All those Lua scripts we discussed? It's just to perform "basic" tasks to pick up eggs. I still run to the eggs and press button to pick up, then another macro to open spellbook and decide where to recall next. The EC scripts we discussed here are so basic that anyone will laugh when compared to what CC scripts can do.

My take is 3rd party scripts won't go away unless CC is decommissioned and blocked from login.

KHAN

Relvinian said:

Yoshi said:

“I said it rejects non patched. Meaning old clients.

Please stop referencing the unofficial clients in your posts. Failure to do so will lead to a suspension of your posting ability."

Hi Yoshi I don’t post here often but lurk and have wondered are you a moderator or employee here? 

He just likes to pretend he is.

Seth

Seth said:

I won't promote using the scripts with CC, but stating that it's no secret and not surprising that a 1997 software cannot stop 3rd party.

I am collecting eggs in EC with just simple object filter plus pickup macro. I am happy if I can press a button to pick up what I need, and not having to drag into bag. 

All those Lua scripts we discussed? It's just to perform "basic" tasks to pick up eggs. I still run to the eggs and press button to pick up, then another macro to open spellbook and decide where to recall next. The EC scripts we discussed here are so basic that anyone will laugh when compared to what CC scripts can do.

My take is 3rd party scripts won't go away unless CC is decommissioned and blocked from login.

Continue from above...

I read earlier the plan was to sunset CC after 80%(?) of users adopt the new EC.
Apparently, that did not happen and many players are still using CC - perhaps due to PVP, speed, and of course, 3rd party. Let's be honest and open. 

So that prompted the Dev not only to continue support for CC but also upgraded it (recently?).

There is no way to remove CC to stop scripters now as it would affect this "substantial" number of users. So this is perhaps the reason why Dev has silently allowed scripters as long as the player themselves are not AFK. 

In summary, 3rd party scripts are here to stay. Removing it requires removing CC which is like removing a vital organ. It will affect so many that might as well shut down the game. We have to understand why "they" did things in a certain way and perhaps see a clearer picture than all of us.

~~~ except SHARD BOUND! Imagine if they didn't introduce Character Transfer more than 10 years ago, UO Might already be DEAD. I am 100% sure because I and many of my friends I knew won't last as long in the game without cross shard buying. I am the living proof SHARD BOUND is a TOTAL crap. The transfer shield is the reason why I am paying for extra accounts and still in this game.

Seth

Seth said:

Seth said:

I won't promote using the scripts with CC, but stating that it's no secret and not surprising that a 1997 software cannot stop 3rd party.

I am collecting eggs in EC with just simple object filter plus pickup macro. I am happy if I can press a button to pick up what I need, and not having to drag into bag. 

All those Lua scripts we discussed? It's just to perform "basic" tasks to pick up eggs. I still run to the eggs and press button to pick up, then another macro to open spellbook and decide where to recall next. The EC scripts we discussed here are so basic that anyone will laugh when compared to what CC scripts can do.

My take is 3rd party scripts won't go away unless CC is decommissioned and blocked from login.

Continue from above...

I read earlier the plan was to sunset CC after 80%(?) of users adopt the new EC.
Apparently, that did not happen and many players are still using CC - perhaps due to PVP, speed, and of course, 3rd party. Let's be honest and open. 

So that prompted the Dev not only to continue support for CC but also upgraded it (recently?).

There is no way to remove CC to stop scripters now as it would affect this "substantial" number of users. So this is perhaps the reason why Dev has silently allowed scripters as long as the player themselves are not AFK. 

In summary, 3rd party scripts are here to stay. Removing it requires removing CC which is like removing a vital organ. It will affect so many that might as well shut down the game. We have to understand why "they" did things in a certain way and perhaps see a clearer picture than all of us.

~~~ except SHARD BOUND! Imagine if they didn't introduce Character Transfer more than 10 years ago, UO Might already be DEAD. I am 100% sure because I and many of my friends I knew won't last as long in the game without cross shard buying. I am the living proof SHARD BOUND is a TOTAL crap. The transfer shield is the reason why I am paying for extra accounts and still in this game.

Continuing from the above...

Why did they create the easy egg picking activity but stopped the "pile" in the dungeon, and raised the difficulty? But that does not matter as both activities are considered "proper" game design.

• You can go around to pick up items in exchange for rewards
• You need to go around killing monsters to get drop

But standing at one location 24/7 to milk the spawn is normally not intended for any game design. Its not a fun game to stand in one location to kill monsters in any rpg or action games, from beginning to the end.

Since the damage has already been done, so let the latecomers continue to get the rewards as easy as the pile, but using a proper gameplay method. Picking things from the floor is considered proper.

The dungeon is still available but only for those who prefer action. The drop could have been better to match picking the eggs.

Then we are back to the topic about egg scripters... sigh. Is it proper?

Goto top...

McDougle

Seth said:

Seth said:

Seth said:

I won't promote using the scripts with CC, but stating that it's no secret and not surprising that a 1997 software cannot stop 3rd party.

I am collecting eggs in EC with just simple object filter plus pickup macro. I am happy if I can press a button to pick up what I need, and not having to drag into bag. 

All those Lua scripts we discussed? It's just to perform "basic" tasks to pick up eggs. I still run to the eggs and press button to pick up, then another macro to open spellbook and decide where to recall next. The EC scripts we discussed here are so basic that anyone will laugh when compared to what CC scripts can do.

My take is 3rd party scripts won't go away unless CC is decommissioned and blocked from login.

Continue from above...

I read earlier the plan was to sunset CC after 80%(?) of users adopt the new EC.
Apparently, that did not happen and many players are still using CC - perhaps due to PVP, speed, and of course, 3rd party. Let's be honest and open. 

So that prompted the Dev not only to continue support for CC but also upgraded it (recently?).

There is no way to remove CC to stop scripters now as it would affect this "substantial" number of users. So this is perhaps the reason why Dev has silently allowed scripters as long as the player themselves are not AFK. 

In summary, 3rd party scripts are here to stay. Removing it requires removing CC which is like removing a vital organ. It will affect so many that might as well shut down the game. We have to understand why "they" did things in a certain way and perhaps see a clearer picture than all of us.

~~~ except SHARD BOUND! Imagine if they didn't introduce Character Transfer more than 10 years ago, UO Might already be DEAD. I am 100% sure because I and many of my friends I knew won't last as long in the game without cross shard buying. I am the living proof SHARD BOUND is a TOTAL crap. The transfer shield is the reason why I am paying for extra accounts and still in this game.

Continuing from the above...

Why they created the egg picking easy activity but stopped the "pile" in the dungeon and raise the difficulty. This is because both activities are somewhat part of the intended game design.

• You can go around to pick up items in exchange for rewards
• You need to go around killing monsters to get drop

But standing at one location 24/7 to milk the spawn is not the intended for any game design. We don't stand in one location to kill monsters in any rpg from beginning to the end.

But the damage has already been done! So let the latecomers continue to get the rewards as easy as the pile but using a proper gameplay method. Picking things from the floor is considered proper.

The dungeon is still available but only for those who prefer action but the drop could have been better to match picking the eggs.

I've said over and over it's not any of these bugs or brokenness it's the continued lack of communication from the developers.  acknowledgement and accountability...... @Mesanna

Seth

McDougle said:

Seth said:

Seth said:

Seth said:

I won't promote using the scripts with CC, but stating that it's no secret and not surprising that a 1997 software cannot stop 3rd party.

I am collecting eggs in EC with just simple object filter plus pickup macro. I am happy if I can press a button to pick up what I need, and not having to drag into bag. 

All those Lua scripts we discussed? It's just to perform "basic" tasks to pick up eggs. I still run to the eggs and press button to pick up, then another macro to open spellbook and decide where to recall next. The EC scripts we discussed here are so basic that anyone will laugh when compared to what CC scripts can do.

My take is 3rd party scripts won't go away unless CC is decommissioned and blocked from login.

Continue from above...

I read earlier the plan was to sunset CC after 80%(?) of users adopt the new EC.
Apparently, that did not happen and many players are still using CC - perhaps due to PVP, speed, and of course, 3rd party. Let's be honest and open. 

So that prompted the Dev not only to continue support for CC but also upgraded it (recently?).

There is no way to remove CC to stop scripters now as it would affect this "substantial" number of users. So this is perhaps the reason why Dev has silently allowed scripters as long as the player themselves are not AFK. 

In summary, 3rd party scripts are here to stay. Removing it requires removing CC which is like removing a vital organ. It will affect so many that might as well shut down the game. We have to understand why "they" did things in a certain way and perhaps see a clearer picture than all of us.

~~~ except SHARD BOUND! Imagine if they didn't introduce Character Transfer more than 10 years ago, UO Might already be DEAD. I am 100% sure because I and many of my friends I knew won't last as long in the game without cross shard buying. I am the living proof SHARD BOUND is a TOTAL crap. The transfer shield is the reason why I am paying for extra accounts and still in this game.

Continuing from the above...

Why they created the egg picking easy activity but stopped the "pile" in the dungeon and raise the difficulty. This is because both activities are somewhat part of the intended game design.

• You can go around to pick up items in exchange for rewards
• You need to go around killing monsters to get drop

But standing at one location 24/7 to milk the spawn is not the intended for any game design. We don't stand in one location to kill monsters in any rpg from beginning to the end.

But the damage has already been done! So let the latecomers continue to get the rewards as easy as the pile but using a proper gameplay method. Picking things from the floor is considered proper.

The dungeon is still available but only for those who prefer action but the drop could have been better to match picking the eggs.

I've said over and over it's not any of these bugs or brokenness it's the continued lack of communication from the developers.  acknowledgement and accountability...... @ Mesanna

Sadly that is how the world works in real life, either because they have no solution or have more urgent matters in their opinion.

Merus

A few thoughts on the topics in this thread:

1. It doesn’t really matter what the written rule is if it’s not enforced.  ToS says no (or only approved) 3rd party programs… but it seems enforcement says if you’re attended and can answer questions separately on separate clients you’re good to go.

2. How some of these unofficial clients look to the server is something only the Devs can answer.  It’s possible there is something there they can see different, or maybe they are designed to deliberately mimic how the official clients look server side.

3. Most of the 3rd party software (not clients) that interact with CC can not be detected via the data stream.  They interact client side on the local pc and look just like a user initiated event to the server.

4.  EC mods can do almost everything that the CC 3rd party programs can, and do it faster/better.  There are some obvious exceptions to this such as using rails for moving.

5. Without promoting any specific program or play style, I’m on the side of attended play, with or without elaborate macros/scripts, in either client should be legal.  I also think that any client capable of playing UO should also be legal.  And I think our Dev team should come out and make that the official policy.  This is my opinion not because I do/want to cheat, but because then the playing field is level.  If client X offers some advantages in PvP, then everyone who wants to PvP should be able to legally use that client if they choose.  If program A or UI B can automate harvesting seeds or looting gold or picking up eggs, etc, then anyone who wants those QoL enhancements should feel free to use them.  In my opinion that policy would also level the playing field a little between clients.  The legal EC can do so many things that the CC can’t I feel it creates issues. Like the change which allowed multi-clienting years ago, it should be at the users risk and not supported by UO.  

Let the GMs focus on true multi-boxing (which should remain illegal IMO) and unattended scripting… things neither client can legally do.

Yoshi

"they are not fixing bugs in CC or EC,

I think the majority of people have migrated to a supported client for that reason,

then they start using the bells and whistles it comes with which are i think a bad thing"

magrodnyc2

EM's use them
Dev's most like use them
Players use them...

Only reason will never make to the approval list, is bc liability and that someone will need to pay someone for the license and NONE of the parts involved want that. so the best solution is Not say a thing about!

BardrisCaller1

I think it's unfortunate that players who lack skills to modify the game files have to deal with the effects of players who do. A game people pay a monthly subscription for shouldn't force players to know how to modify the game files with code language to stay on a level playing field with everyone else. Just my opinion.

McDougle

This should have been the shortest thread ever the OPs question and a reply from a developer....

Pawain

BardrisCaller1 said:

I think it's unfortunate that players who lack skills to modify the game files have to deal with the effects of players who do. A game people pay a monthly subscription for shouldn't force players to know how to modify the game files with code language to stay on a level playing field with everyone else. Just my opinion.

Mariah and players here are sharing what they are coming up with here.

Since there are unlimited things you can do with EC, they can not put it all in.  These eggs and other names were not in the game when EC was made. 

BardrisCaller1

Pawain said:

BardrisCaller1 said:

I think it's unfortunate that players who lack skills to modify the game files have to deal with the effects of players who do. A game people pay a monthly subscription for shouldn't force players to know how to modify the game files with code language to stay on a level playing field with everyone else. Just my opinion.

Mariah and players here are sharing what they are coming up with here.

Since there are unlimited things you can do with EC, they can not put it all in.  These eggs and other names were not in the game when EC was made. 

I understand that but you can't expect some players to know how to access game files and not accidentally royally mess them up. But again, this is just my single opinion. It's not a stab at anybody in particular. I get that this is just how the game has evolved. I used to PVP and go on raids in fel and do all that fun stuff but I really don't have the energy to figure out how to do all that with the game files. I'll just stick to growing plants lol.

BardrisCaller1

Funny, I pay 14.99 a month to grow digital plants and my actual garden is a wasteland

Pawain

Same. They say we will have no rain this month. And it will be the worst drought since the year 400.

I also do not care to deal with modifying files.  Plain CC does what I need.  But it is good that those that want to do that, have the opportunity.

McDougle

Pawain said:

Same. They say we will have no rain this month. And it will be the worst drought since the year 400.

I also do not care to deal with modifying files.  Plain CC does what I need.  But it is good that those that want to do that, have the opportunity.

I can send some Oregon rain we have extra 

Seth

Merus said:

A few thoughts on the topics in this thread:

1. It doesn’t really matter what the written rule is if it’s not enforced.  ToS says no (or only approved) 3rd party programs… but it seems enforcement says if you’re attended and can answer questions separately on separate clients you’re good to go.

2. How some of these unofficial clients look to the server is something only the Devs can answer.  It’s possible there is something there they can see different, or maybe they are designed to deliberately mimic how the official clients look server side.

3. Most of the 3rd party software (not clients) that interact with CC can not be detected via the data stream.  They interact client side on the local pc and look just like a user initiated event to the server.

4.  EC mods can do almost everything that the CC 3rd party programs can, and do it faster/better.  There are some obvious exceptions to this such as using rails for moving.

5. Without promoting any specific program or play style, I’m on the side of attended play, with or without elaborate macros/scripts, in either client should be legal.  I also think that any client capable of playing UO should also be legal.  And I think our Dev team should come out and make that the official policy.  This is my opinion not because I do/want to cheat, but because then the playing field is level.  If client X offers some advantages in PvP, then everyone who wants to PvP should be able to legally use that client if they choose.  If program A or UI B can automate harvesting seeds or looting gold or picking up eggs, etc, then anyone who wants those QoL enhancements should feel free to use them.  In my opinion that policy would also level the playing field a little between clients.  The legal EC can do so many things that the CC can’t I feel it creates issues. Like the change which allowed multi-clienting years ago, it should be at the users risk and not supported by UO.  

Let the GMs focus on true multi-boxing (which should remain illegal IMO) and unattended scripting… things neither client can legally do.

Me thinks they will not make 3rd party client official as the 3rd party is not updated and fully supported like UOA in the past. 

The easy way will be determined by actions rather than what program, which may include 3rd party or other generic oe keyboard software such as Logitech macros.

I think it is clear now that we won't get banned by using 3rd party but what it actually does, and so far 3 are confirmed: multibox, blocking, AFK.

It seems we can macro repeatedly as long as it's in the house and not affecting others, e.g. macro skills are ok, but macro killing a daemon in a room 24/7 is banned.

Perhaps no one report if u macro in the house, but macro killing a spawn can be seen and reported.

username

The biggest issue are these 3rd party clients. I'll leave it at that. If you know, then you know. Why they allow them to connect to servers is beyond hilarious. 

BardrisCaller1

McDougle said:

Pawain said:

Same. They say we will have no rain this month. And it will be the worst drought since the year 400.

I also do not care to deal with modifying files.  Plain CC does what I need.  But it is good that those that want to do that, have the opportunity.

I can send some Oregon rain we have extra 

By all means, lets get a canal built asap. Need to water my lawn.

Yoshi

“Official classic client has:
no auto run around objects

no mobiles bar

Targets neutral animals, guilded greys/reds, and dead pets with select//attack nearest hostile..

Does not mount new vvv horse if in combat mode



I think these are the main disadvantages to playing official classic client. 

The targeting is the main problem especially in big group fights. Baring in mind it’s not possible to manually target an opponent by clicking on them unless they stop moving to cast a spell..

There are many reasons why your fellow guild members turn grey or red, often due to flagging bugs or having to take out hostile blue wall scripters etc so in any given fight, you’ll have to scroll through friendly grey guild members, dead hostile horses from previous battles that are lurking on the field, and neutral animals. On average will have to scroll through half a dozen bars before it brings up the valid target you want, by that time you’re normally dead. 

Who can play like this? 

There are very few people able to PvP on official classic client.

I am pretty sure it is mainly PvPers who do not use official client as they are affected the most severely by these bugs which are exclusive to official classic client.
”

Seth

username said:

The biggest issue are these 3rd party clients. I'll leave it at that. If you know, then you know. Why they allow them to connect to servers is beyond hilarious. 

The thing that connects is still the client, not the 3rd party. The 3rd party just hooks on and program to run client side automation. 3rd party has nothing to do with the server as far as I know or if it does then it's considered a serious security breach.

Example, a script that tells the client to move character between places to pick up things, attack, loot and recall etc... these are all client processes.

E.g. a 3rd party program that helps you submit a form to an online bank, is different from a program that actually connects and hacks into the online bank and control the account. The latter is a police case.

username

Seth said:

username said:

The biggest issue are these 3rd party clients. I'll leave it at that. If you know, then you know. Why they allow them to connect to servers is beyond hilarious. 

The thing that connects is still the client, not the 3rd party. The 3rd party just hooks on and program to run client side automation. 3rd party has nothing to do with the server as far as I know or if it does then it's considered a serious security breach.

Example, a script that tells the client to move character between places to pick up things, attack, loot and recall etc... these are all client processes.

E.g. a 3rd party program that helps you submit a form to an online bank, is different from a program that actually connects and hacks into the online bank and control the account. The latter is a police case.

I completely understand what you're saying and you may be correct. However, one describes itself as, "Alternative client for playing Ultima Online, maximally emulating all known versions of the 2D client." which sounds to me describes what I'm talking about, a completely from-scratch client, not something that just interacts with the client. I don't know. I have no idea which one it is as I've never used it and never will. Don't feel like getting my account stolen today (or any day) by some Russians.

Seth

username said:

Seth said:

username said:

The biggest issue are these 3rd party clients. I'll leave it at that. If you know, then you know. Why they allow them to connect to servers is beyond hilarious. 

The thing that connects is still the client, not the 3rd party. The 3rd party just hooks on and program to run client side automation. 3rd party has nothing to do with the server as far as I know or if it does then it's considered a serious security breach.

Example, a script that tells the client to move character between places to pick up things, attack, loot and recall etc... these are all client processes.

E.g. a 3rd party program that helps you submit a form to an online bank, is different from a program that actually connects and hacks into the online bank and control the account. The latter is a police case.

I completely understand what you're saying and you may be correct. However, one describes itself as, "Alternative client for playing Ultima Online, maximally emulating all known versions of the 2D client." which sounds to me describes what I'm talking about, a completely from-scratch client, not something that just interacts with the client. I don't know. I have no idea which one it is as I've never used it and never will. Don't feel like getting my account stolen today (or any day) by some Russians.

I think I heard something like an alternative client from pvp threads. If that exists then I agree it's risky.