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suggestion: Remove DI from items cap, keep 300 DI total cap

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  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 2,263
    Pawain said:
    The reason many of the properties are placed where they are is exactly that reason KLOMP cited. Though the perspective is different.
    If you treat each of these bonuses as increases to a players effectiveness or capabilities, then sticking them on a relatively unused slot such as earrings, boots, or cloaks means that everyone will use them.
    Well that seems fair. Fair yes, when it comes to balance, fair, and balance don't always play the same game.
    If you gave a player a power rating, say 0 -200.
    The best player with the best gear would rate 200
    The best player with average gear would probably rate 120
    So they have a difference in power of 80

    Now give them both an item that makes them 10% more effective
    The player with the best gear is now at 220, and the player with average gear is 132, so though they've both gotten the same % buff, the gap between them has gone from 80 to 88. The gap has now increased by 10%.
    To help avoid the gap between players due to equipment rather than skill many of these properties are on slots where a player can sacrifice using items with great stats for an item which has ok stats and a unique effect.
    Well thats the thinking behind the items anway.

    That's interesting. So basically when creating items (at least back then as per this post) they were looking for items to be used by lesser players to bridge the gap in power rating? ie sacrificing a slot with great stats for an item with unique effect.

    I never really thought of it this way but that kind of makes more sense as to why we have some items that are pretty good but would be so much better if they just had a few different properties.
  • GwenGwen Posts: 210
    Pawain said:
    Post 7 that is linked above, puts it all together.
    .........

    100 + 75 + 55 + 47 = 277  Since I have no room for more skills That's all I can get from that 300%. 
    I can chug a Greater Strength potion to get 3% more damage. Or eat a Petal for 1.5% more.
    If I managed to calc it correctly.

    So this is what the OP is asking for,  We get more from the capped DI.  I doubt we will get it because it would make it too easy to reach that 300% cap.

    You have room for skills. You just need to get powerscrolls and increase those skills with real or jewels skill points. 
    But in your current situation it seems you decided that other skills are more important and give you more benefits than tactics, anatomy or lumberjack 
    Removing cap will mean that Tactics , Anatomy and even Strength will become obsolete. Actually this is what @Zima is asking. So there will be no reason to farm or buy Tactics powerscroll , just stick more DI on yourself. Get weapon wth 98 DI, 2*jewels with 35 DI , tinker legs, feudal grips, cloak , talisman, brightsight lenses and 25 DI shield and with 10 STR your  miner-cook-herder  will hit same as one with 150 STR and 120 in tactics??  I dont agree with this idea. . 
    I think current situation balances everything quite good. 
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,926
    edited May 2021
    Hmm, something else will give way. My best sampire is already very tight and optimized.

    - 760 skills with jewels
    - Tactics is 120 to maximise mastery damage, but anatomy only 60, so it is far below the 300 cap.
    - Item DI is just 100... following OP's suggestion if I were to push this higher it means some other specs will be affected.

    So even if the item DI cap is raised it won't help in my case. 
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 4,080
    why in my day sonny all we needed was a silver sword of vanquishing...
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 10,025
    I think it is fun to mess around with items and try to upgrade.  I could get more DI on a jewel. My guy is a macer so I need more stamina and ssi than my swords guy. That is why he can not get more skills. My melee guys are old but neither has 120 tactics. My pets eat those.

    Neither of my archers have anatomy. Because they are full. The archer bard has over 800 skills but no room for anatomy.

    I am fine with DI as it is.  I want something to work towards.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • zimazima Posts: 55
    Mariah said:
    I am not a technical player, I did the best I could with the information I had, and asked for confirmation that it was correct, which I received. If someone would like to email me a re-write of that page I will be happy to update it, but when it comes to understanding it, on this topic I have to admit to being out of my depth.
    my email address is mariah4broadsword@ gmail.com
    Hard to do so, since MUCh of the information needs to be confirmed with a developer, since it is NOT in a game resource we can verify. 
  • DragoDrago Posts: 306
    edited June 2021
    Seth said:
    The different types of damage should be clearly differentiated. The game is complicated for new or returning players, there is no need to make it even more confusing. It would be good if the terms used are more consistent and accurate. I recall bringing up an old post recently where the description was wrong.
    i didnt notice this till recently.. but EC (idk about CC) has item properties on paperdoll that explains all the diff damage types , item properties, etc
    ..

  • SethSeth Posts: 2,926
    Drago said:
    Seth said:
    The different types of damage should be clearly differentiated. The game is complicated for new or returning players, there is no need to make it even more confusing. It would be good if the terms used are more consistent and accurate. I recall bringing up an old post recently where the description was wrong.
    i didnt notice this till recently.. but EC (idk about CC) has item properties on paperdoll that explains all the diff damage types , item properties, etc
    ..


    Yeah, but it is better if they keep all the labels on the actual items correct, e.g. DI on sword mastery is actually a DM and the DM on the quiver is actually a DI.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,926
    Sorry I got messed up again, the quiver is correct. The wrong ones are found in Yoshi’s post. It’s better to just stick with the correct terms in all aspects of the game and not rely on faq or wiki.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • zimazima Posts: 55
    so, to re-iterate since reading is a lost art. The idea is to remove the limit from of 100 Di from items, but keep the total DI cap at 300. So if you have 120 tactics and 60 anatomy, you could still reach 300 Di cap by having 130% DI on your suit. So no, you wouldnt have to change anything, but get the benefit of adding damage. You could easily exceed 100 with weapon Di, or jewels. Or tinker legs. Or.... Of course, the response will be "but I can't get that much Di on my suit!, so this is a stupid idea". But wouldn't even 10 percent closer to the cap (than you are now) be a net benefit?

  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 991
    items won't bring you to maximum damage possible if you're not 120 in all damage increase skills, tactics & anatomy.
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • PawainPawain Posts: 10,025
    CovenantX said:
    items won't bring you to maximum damage possible if you're not 120 in all damage increase skills, tactics & anatomy.
    He wants to have over 100 DI so it would go to 300 with lower skills.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 991
    Pawain said:
    CovenantX said:
    items won't bring you to maximum damage possible if you're not 120 in all damage increase skills, tactics & anatomy.
    He wants to have over 100 DI so it would go to 300 with lower skills.

     I know, and it wouldn't matter, he wouldn't do any more damage than he does now.  all that would do is allow items to be switched around.  because Tactics & Anatomy aren't part of the 300% cap, they are in addition to the cap.
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • GwenGwen Posts: 210
    zima said:
    so, to re-iterate since reading is a lost art. The idea is to remove the limit from of 100 Di from items, but keep the total DI cap at 300. So if you have 120 tactics and 60 anatomy, you could still reach 300 Di cap by having 130% DI on your suit. So no, you wouldnt have to change anything, but get the benefit of adding damage. You could easily exceed 100 with weapon Di, or jewels. Or tinker legs. Or.... Of course, the response will be "but I can't get that much Di on my suit!, so this is a stupid idea". But wouldn't even 10 percent closer to the cap (than you are now) be a net benefit?

    Whole idea of those caps and limitations is : if you want *this* you will not  be able to afford *that* . 
    So even if my characters  will benefit from this removing 100 DI cap from items I am against it. 
    Yes, if you want to reach 300 DI cap , you should have different skills and gear. Or skills. Or if you think those skillpoints will bring more benefit somewhere else- do it. 
    I dont want to have competition who packs more DI on his toon.  Want to do this - go magery. You can pack as much SDI as you can afford. But even mages dont put all SDI gear - suit will not be balanced. For spellweaving WOD - may be. 
  • zimazima Posts: 55
    @ConvenantX So, this thread on stratics,  https://community.stratics.com/threads/confirmation-on-max-damage-pvm.416950/ , this page on uo_guide https://www.uoguide.com/Damage_Increase and this page in the UO Wiki https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/melee-fighting/melee-damage-increase/ are incorrect? Should weigh in with your exalted knowledge to edify the community. 
    Look, there are so many DI buffs that are rendered useless because of the cap, that I am just searching for a way to make them useful. Battle lust, grapes of wrath, gargoyle racial bonus, Bard Buff inspire DI bonus, Divine Fury DI, etc, Player made weapons, the ring with 75 DI on it. SO MANY. And they keep pushing us more, like it will help. 
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 991
    zima said:
    @ ConvenantX So, this thread on stratics,  https://community.stratics.com/threads/confirmation-on-max-damage-pvm.416950/ , this page on uo_guide https://www.uoguide.com/Damage_Increase and this page in the UO Wiki https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/melee-fighting/melee-damage-increase/ are incorrect? Should weigh in with your exalted knowledge to edify the community. 
    Look, there are so many DI buffs that are rendered useless because of the cap, that I am just searching for a way to make them useful. Battle lust, grapes of wrath, gargoyle racial bonus, Bard Buff inspire DI bonus, Divine Fury DI, etc, Player made weapons, the ring with 75 DI on it. SO MANY. And they keep pushing us more, like it will help. 
      at first glance, the information looks correct.

    quick reference from the UOguide link.

    Damage Increase, or DI, increases the damage you will do on a successful melee, counter-attack melee or ranged hit. It is applied before the targets resist (100% poison damage will still do 0 to a 100% poison resist target).

    It can be found naturally on weapons and jewellery. It ranges in intensity from 1% - 50% on crafted/imbued weapons, -40% - 100% on reforged/artifact weapons, 1% - 25% on imbued jewellery and 5% - 75% on artifact jewellery. It is capped at 100%, both PvM and PvP. Total Damage Bonus is capped at 300% ( all the above + abilities, spells, buffs )
    to a target with 0% resistance to your weapon's damage type.
    using a weapon with 14-18 base damage,  
    0.0 tactics & anatomy =  hit 102-132 damage.

    using the same setup, but adding 120.0 in both tactics & anatomy, your damage jumps up to 165-210.  

    The 300% bonus is from items and buffs only. skills and stats aren't considered "Bonus" damage.

      if you have all the damage increase buffs active at the same time, yes, much of it would be rendered useless because of the cap..  But, if you would still gain damage increase from capping out Tactics, Anatomy & Lumberjacking (if you're using an axe weapon), assuming you're not 120/120/100 in those skills respectively.
    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 1,060
    CovenantX said:
    because Tactics & Anatomy aren't part of the 300% cap, they are in addition to the cap.
    CovenantX said:
    The 300% bonus is from items and buffs only.
    This is incorrect.

    As former developer Logrus explained in detail and as Mariah has had recently confirmed as still accurate, Strength, Tactics, Anatomy, and Lumberjacking, along with all Damage Increase components factor into the 300% base damage "cap", or as Logrus defines it, "attack damage". 

    As you can see from two of Logrus posts I've linked below, Strength, Tactics, and Anatomy most certainly factor into the damage calculation within the cap and are not "in addition" to the cap.


    https://community.stratics.com/threads/120-chiv.286917/post-2192380
    " Damage = (X + W(X) + T(X) + A(X) + S(X)) * M
     X is your base weapon damage
     W is your Damage Increase (Capped at 100)
     T is your Tactics Damage Increase Factor
     A is your Anatomy Damage Increase Factor
     S is your Strength Damage Increase Factor
     The Cap % for W,T,A,S is 300% (Your damage increase cap) "

    https://community.stratics.com/threads/120-chiv.286917/post-2215639
    "All damage increasing factors together can get you an additional 300% to the base damage of the equipped weapon.
    So if you used a weapon with base damage of 20, after taking into consideration strength, tactics skill, anatomy, damage increase on the weapon and items and any abilities that affect damage increase, you could get up to 300% more damage(60), for a total damage of 80." 
    -Arroth
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 991
    Arroth_Thaiel said:
    CovenantX said:
    because Tactics & Anatomy aren't part of the 300% cap, they are in addition to the cap.
    CovenantX said:
    The 300% bonus is from items and buffs only.
    This is incorrect.

    As former developer Logrus explained in detail and as Mariah has had recently confirmed as still accurate, Strength, Tactics, Anatomy, and Lumberjacking, along with all Damage Increase components factor into the 300% base damage "cap", or as Logrus defines it, "attack damage". 

    As you can see from two of Logrus posts I've linked below, Strength, Tactics, and Anatomy most certainly factor into the damage calculation within the cap and are not "in addition" to the cap.


    https://community.stratics.com/threads/120-chiv.286917/post-2192380
    " Damage = (X + W(X) + T(X) + A(X) + S(X)) * M
     X is your base weapon damage
     W is your Damage Increase (Capped at 100)
     T is your Tactics Damage Increase Factor
     A is your Anatomy Damage Increase Factor
     S is your Strength Damage Increase Factor
     The Cap % for W,T,A,S is 300% (Your damage increase cap) "

    https://community.stratics.com/threads/120-chiv.286917/post-2215639
    "All damage increasing factors together can get you an additional 300% to the base damage of the equipped weapon.
    So if you used a weapon with base damage of 20, after taking into consideration strength, tactics skill, anatomy, damage increase on the weapon and items and any abilities that affect damage increase, you could get up to 300% more damage(60), for a total damage of 80." 
       If it were incorrect, you wouldn't gain damage from tactics, anatomy and lumberjacking once you've reached the 300% cap.

    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • Maximus_NeximusMaximus_Neximus Posts: 380
    I'll just copy and paste my post from Stratics here. To my knowledge it is still accurate and not missing any damage modifiers/multipliers.

    For the damage increase cap (300 cap)
    Damage Increase for items = 100 *** Divine Fury spell will add up to 20% damage increase as part of this 100 cap
    120 Tactics then (120/1.6) + 6.25 = 81.25
    120 Anatomy then (120/2) +5 = 65
    150 Strength then (150*.3) +5 = 50
    For a total of 296.25 which means its impossible to hit 300 here unless you have LJ.

    20 LJ (Skill Level/5) *if below GM* will add 4.0, reaching the 300 cap.
    GM LJ (Skill level/5) + 10 = 30

    Note: The above is the old official formula. However, it appears that LJ will take you above the 300 cap. It needs further testing to see true numbers. But I did a very brief test and this 300 cap doesn't appear to exist any more.

    For the damage modifier cap (300 cap) *aka damage multiplier*
    You always have 100% damage Modifier. You will always swing for 100% of your base damage before resists are calculated. From there, you can add these on top of that.
    Specific Slayer (+200%)
    Super Slayer (+100%)
    Perfection (+100%) ***10% per level (hit), maxed at 100%
    Enemy of One ( up to 82%) ***based on chiv skill and (possibly) karma
    Honor Self (25%)
    Consecrate Weapon ( up to 16%) ***based on chiv skill and (possibly) karma
    Bard Song Inspire (up to 15%) ***based on bard skills
    Some Quivers (10%) *** I haven't tested. But it only works on archery weapons per Tabin
    Grapes of Wrath (10%)
    Level 3 Weapon Mastery (5%)

  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 991
    edited June 2021
    The confusion seems to be between damage modifier vs damage increase.

    I see the errors I've made here.  (including 100% damage increase, as part of the 'modifier' instead of where it belongs) *

    I'm talking about 'Damage Modifiers', which come from Item properties (Slayers) & Buffs, like Honor & Enemy of one, etc.  *these continue to benefit from skills, stats & DI.

     -The damage Increase is coming from skills, stats & 100% from the "Damage Increase" magic property.

    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
  • PawainPawain Posts: 10,025
    CovenantX said:

     -The damage Increase is coming from skills, stats & 100% from the "Damage Increase" magic property.

    Yes the OP wants to be able to go above 100 damage increase so he can have less skills.

    Many of us disagree that that would be a good change.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • zimazima Posts: 55
    No quite Pawain. As I said earlier, I want to make the useless crap useful. This was just a thought that occurred to me. If you have an idea on how to these properties could be rendered useful, post it. Naysayers without solutions are non-productive.
  • GwenGwen Posts: 210
    Maximus_Neximus said:

    For a total of 296.25 which means its impossible to hit 300 here unless you have LJ.

    You want 300 cap so much - be human. Or put 20 LJ on elf.  Or be gargish and stay at 60% HP . 

    Cap is just a cap. There is no obligation to reach it. And instead of 20 LJ elves decide to put those skill points somewhere else. 

  • PawainPawain Posts: 10,025
    zima said:
    No quite Pawain. As I said earlier, I want to make the useless crap useful. This was just a thought that occurred to me. If you have an idea on how to these properties could be rendered useful, post it. Naysayers without solutions are non-productive.
    Just because we have many ways to get to 100%, it does not mean we have to use them all at once. I use different items on my toons to get there. I'm glad we have lots of options.

    Most DI items are used by someone. There many weapons and armor drops that do not ever get used.  I would like to see those updated.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 4,080
    I tried talking about this or what I see as the issue here when the sdi earrings came out. if right now a GD takes three hits and you some how raise DI to kill it in two they will just give it more hp or better resistance this is a never ending vicious circle...
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • CovenantXCovenantX Posts: 991
    Pawain said:
    CovenantX said:

     -The damage Increase is coming from skills, stats & 100% from the "Damage Increase" magic property.

    Yes the OP wants to be able to go above 100 damage increase so he can have less skills.

       To a degree, you would be able to use less skill if you add enough 'DI' to your suit.

      However, some of the buffs that were brought up would still be in the same boat since they're Damage modifiers (mostly), They wouldn't really become any more useful,  your damage might would go up slightly if you weren't at the 300 cap prior, but most of the 'buffed' bonuses would still be redundant..

    The most obvious way to make those buffs more useful, (with no redundancy), would be increasing the damage modifier cap to a level that's impossible to reach without the use of every buff.    a cap would need to remain in place as it relates to pvp.

    The highest 'damage modifier you could possibly reach would be around ~538% (If I'm not missing anything) quite a significant difference without the 300% cap.

    The disparity between  Warriors & Spell-casters would grow. so it'd take more to address that too.   which is already an issue.

    Remove or change casting focus & poison immunity it reduces the need for "Player Skill" it's garbage. rant2 Bring timing back and eliminate chance in pvp!
    ICQ# 478 633 659
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