suggestion: Remove DI from items cap, keep 300 DI total cap
There are so MANY moves and items, even the gargoyle racial ability, that have been rendered useless in most cases by the 100 DI from items cap. If it was removed, but keeping the 300 DI total, it would open up a world of possibility on template construction.
Comments
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Then add descriptions to special moves - are they affected by DI or damage bonus, or slayer.
Some are not . Also velocity removes slayer.
With regards specifically to a Bard's Inspire, the tooltip over the Mastery icon references "melee damage increase". Inspire provides increases in melee damage through two separate systems, so the tooltip references a generalized "melee damage" rather than specific damage systems. However, the tooltip for the Inspire buff icon does break down the "melee damage increase" into the two damage systems that the buff interacts with. So yes, this can be confusing. On the Inspire buff icon you'll see +% Damage Increase, which is identical to +% Damage Increase from items and is displayed on your character sheet. You'll also see "Bonus Damage Modifier: + 15%", which is damage is applied as a modifier.
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Agreed.
However, if you lay it out on a spread sheet, there are really only two damage systems you're affecting with items and buffs. Damage Increase and Damage Modifier. The tooltips should really be consistent with explaining that.
The information I have about Bard's Inspire, Grapes of Wrath, and Honor Self are from developer Logrus in a thread on Stratics in October of 2012. The thread can no longer be retrieved by the link I have, since there have been so many changes with Stratics. Logrus edited his post to make sure Grapes of Wrath 10% was added to Damage Modifier. (I copied his posts and kept .txt's of the conversation.)
Obviously it has been a long time since Logrus posts, so Grapes of Wrath and Honor may have changed. However, since the information came directly from a Dev, and I have not tested each buff myself to see how it works currently, I left it in my spreadsheet.
I'm figuring the lists I have for DI and DM are not complete (I was unaware Grapes of Wrath had +35% Damage Increase). I just use the layout to give myself a mental reminder of how all this stuff fits together.
Edit: I'm glad to see there is a bug report about the tooltips not being accurate.
Very valid points on the clarification of damage multiplier and increase! Yet, they do not address the main topic. @kyronix, the sheer amount of different sources of DI beg for more room. I am not a fan of increasing the 300 damage increase cap, but if a player can supplement DI on items for DI from skill, like anatomy or tactics, then why not? We still have plenty of reason to have points in those skills (90 tac for secondary special, 60 anat to cure, etc).
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ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
1) Bull fish pie increases melee damage by 5 per https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/cooking/ . Is this an increase to the base damage, a damage multiplier of 5%, or DI of 5%?
2) Melee mastery passive on https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/skill-masteries/ says that it gives a damage bonus, and does not differentiate between DI or DM. The in-game gump says it is a Damage increase. https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/melee-fighting/melee-damage-increase/ says it is a damage multiplier.
3) Bushido spell Momentum strike, and Whirlwind with bushido skill, both give damage multipliers.
4) Gargoyle racial bonus gives Damage Increase, not listed on https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/skills/melee-fighting/melee-damage-increase/
5) Armor Pierce - it APPEARS to act as a damage multiplier, but it does not state such in game, in the melee page, or the specials move page. https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/special-moves/
6) Force of nature - special move - gives damage increase of 50-100, affected by cap?
7) Infused throw. Description on https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/special-moves/ says it will do more damage. Is this a damage multiplier or damage increase?
8) Shadow strike - deals extra damage. Is this a damage multiplier or damage increase?
https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/special-moves/
9) Whirlwind https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/special-moves/ . Says it is a damage bonus. We have shown it is a damage multiplier.
I'm probably missing some, but I think this is what @gwen is referring to.
Specific slayers do 300% Damage, Super slayers do 200% They were changed at some point a long time ago.
Maybe they ate that 100% Global base modifier. I found this out when I was asking about damage clarification a few months ago.
The 2 Treasures of Dungeons have helped me figure out what to use and what I do not need.
I used a an ogre slayer with fire damage on the Arctic Ogre Lords and I was maxxed out. EoO and consecrate did no extra damage. Also Grapes and Fruit bowls, honor did no extra damage.
I used an Ele slayer on the Poison eles in Deceit. EoO and Consecrate did do extra damage. Also Grapes and Fruit bowls did extra damage.
For the Rams I used EoO, consecrate, perfection, edibles to get the most increase I could.
So, when I try to explain the two types of damage to someone.
For the First 300% have your DI at 100% and your Anat, Tactics, weapon skill, str as high as you can get it.
For the second 300% use a specific slayer when you can, if not, use a super slayer. For things with no specific slayer you get a boost from Chivalry, Chivalry spells, perfection, grapes.
Hopefully that breaks it down in an easy to digest manner, that is correct. hehe
I hope you are correct on inspire, I thought it went to the the 100%DI. Therefor being useless for me.
Excellent chart!
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I think you are misunderstanding how the Slayers work (or maybe I am.....!).
Don't confuse double/triple damage with %'s.
********
Example 1:
Weapon
10 Base damage
Super Slayer 100% Damage Modifier
10 Base Damage x 100% Damage Modifier = 10 Damage Modifier
Total Damage
10 Base Damage + 10 Damage Modifier = 20 Total Damage (Or double the base damage).
Another way to think about this is that the Global Base Modifier is always present, so in effect with a Super Slayer Equipped you have a Total Damage Modifier of 200%.
100% Global Base Modifier
100% Super Slayer Modifier
--------
200% Damage Modifier
Total Damage
10 Base Damage x 200% Damage Modifier = 20 Total Damage (or double the base damage).
Example 2:
Weapon
10 Base Damage
Slayer 200% Damage Modifier
10 Base Damage x 200% Damage Modifier = 20 Damage Modifier
Total Damage
10 Base Damage + 20 Damage Modifier = 30 Total Damage (Or triple the base damage).
Another way to think about this is that the Global Base Modifier is always present, so in effect with a Slayer Equipped you have a Total Damage Modifier of 300%.
100% Global Base Modifier
200% Slayer Modifier
--------
300% Damage Modifier
Total Damage
10 Base Damage x 300% Damage Modifier = 30 Total Damage (or triple the base damage).
********
Your Base Damage (whatever it is) is multiplied by the Total Damage Modifier. If the Global Base Modifier was 0, and you had no other modifiers, you would multiply your Base Damage by 0. You would do no damage.
Example: If you're character sheet said Damage 40-55, there was no Global Base Modifier, and you had no other modifiers, you would multiple 40 x 0 and 55 x 0 for a result of...0 - 0 Total Damage to Target.
The Global Base Modifier 100% remains in effect as you always do 100% of your base damage.
Ok so either way if you use a Single slayer you are at the 300% cap right?
Also, your explanation for discovering how to use what in the "Treasures of..." events is perfect and what I would suggest everyone does for actual gameplay.
I personally don't see anything on that page that differs from the way we (as a player base) have understood damage calculations for the past decade or so. It matches what Logrus explained in 2012 and if the current team says that's still correct, then there ya go.
A lot of the confusion probably stems from the tooltips using the wrong term, or using terms that have not been defined.
It's also possible that some of the special moves and other bonuses are applying damage in other ways: to weapon base damage, or are factored in where the skills are, or are not subject to the DI and DM caps, or are applying damage outside of the above set of calculations as resisted or un-resisted direct damage, etc.
One of the Dev's would have to go through every single thing that has the potential to change damage, define it all, and make sure all the tooltips correlate to those definitions.
It's complicated enough now that I think trying to understand the whole damage system can just be set aside and we should return to whacking on stuff with different setups and seeing if our damage numbers go up.
UO has come full circle.
In regards to broken stratics link, if you change “www” to “community” it should work.
Thanks!
https://community.stratics.com/threads/120-chiv.286917/
Come prepared if you open that thread.....
@Yoshi
Grapes of Wrath and Honor Self info. You think it's still valid?
https://community.stratics.com/threads/120-chiv.286917/post-2192380
For those following along:
100% Damage Modifier - Ice Slayer (Superslayer Talisman)
37% Damage Modifier - Frost Spider Killer 37% (Talisman)
I think. Again, it would need to be confirmed.
I thought I would have issues with that, it was easy
I love his explanations - where is he now!
We could use more of that sometimes.
The Honour Self thing - I use it to stop aggression from monsters on me, I would not think it would give me 25% extra DM. It's one of those hidden things, we could do with knowing - ahh it does say on UOGuide - I just never noticed somehow.
I see no reason it would not still be valid - easy enough to test I guess.
I can understand the chart better.
Someone also posted this part when I was asking:
If max Damage Increase for items = 100
If 120 Tactics then (120/1.6) + 6.25 = 81.25
If 120 Anatomy then (120/2) +5 = 65
If 150 Strength then (150*.3) +5 = 50
For a total of 296.25 which means its impossible to hit 300 here unless you have LJ.
Ill do an attempt with my melee guy:
DI = 100
Tactics = 110 Gives 75
Anatomy = 100 Gives 55
Strength = 140 Gives 47
100 + 75 + 55 + 47 = 277 Since I have no room for more skills That's all I can get from that 300%.
I can chug a Greater Strength potion to get 3% more damage. Or eat a Petal for 1.5% more.
If I managed to calc it correctly.
So this is what the OP is asking for, We get more from the capped DI. I doubt we will get it because it would make it too easy to reach that 300% cap.
When asked why they do not put better items in the game:
And thats the crux of the complaint isnt it.
A simple answer too. Between imbuing and the new loot system, players are able to obtain items which are as good as, sometimes better than, and almost always more suitable and useful than any artifact a dev can create. So a dev making an item either has to make it ridiculously powerful (ie a must have) or do something that other items can't. I find that the ridiculously powerful approach is a slippery slope, as it basically makes competition from player crafting, or other loot pretty useless and creates high priced items that players grind to farm, or only the rich can buy. So I'd rather take the second approach and make a novelty item, that doesn't add to that slippery slope, while at the same time providing some utility to players who want to exploit it.
When asked about the slots they choose to make items for:
The reason many of the properties are placed where they are is exactly that reason KLOMP cited. Though the perspective is different.
If you treat each of these bonuses as increases to a players effectiveness or capabilities, then sticking them on a relatively unused slot such as earrings, boots, or cloaks means that everyone will use them.
Well that seems fair. Fair yes, when it comes to balance, fair, and balance don't always play the same game.
If you gave a player a power rating, say 0 -200.
The best player with the best gear would rate 200
The best player with average gear would probably rate 120
So they have a difference in power of 80
Now give them both an item that makes them 10% more effective
The player with the best gear is now at 220, and the player with average gear is 132, so though they've both gotten the same % buff, the gap between them has gone from 80 to 88. The gap has now increased by 10%.
To help avoid the gap between players due to equipment rather than skill many of these properties are on slots where a player can sacrifice using items with great stats for an item which has ok stats and a unique effect.
Well thats the thinking behind the items anway.
Also with the new loot system many of these properties are available on more combinations of items, and have the potential to surpass pretty much every dev created artifact in game that occupies a craftable item slot.
Most of the items went in prior to the new loot system, and I'm sure the dev team will continue to add new and better stuff. Personally I'm hoping not to see alot of artifacts. I'd rather see updates to existing skills, mechanics, AI and maybe some expansion to the crafting systems.
Also he mentioned the focusing Bane crystal. I may want to try that again on TC on a non slayer weapon.