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Chivalry should reduce special move mana cost just like Bushido does

JohnKnighthawkeJohnKnighthawke Posts: 432
in General Discussions
If memory serves: Bushido is on the list of skills that reduces special move cost, but Chivalry isn't.

Is this (still) true?  If so, it should not be. Chivalry should reduce it too. If for some reason you think that templates with both these support skills will become overpowered as a result, then you can code in an "if not" statement of some kind and have it not apply when Bushido is also present on the same template.

I think this would help out those who like to use the old-school Paladin/Knight Template. (The modern equivalent of the very old school method of duplicating D&D Paladins in UO by putting enough Magery on a template to cast heals, cures, and whatnot with some effectiveness.)

Comments

  • ElessarElessar Posts: 23
    edited February 2021
    I agree with this idea also.  If Bushido counts toward the special move cost reduction total of 300 skill points, Chivalry should as well.  It might open up more dexer build variety, which would be a good thing.  
  • looploop Posts: 382
    edited February 2021
    How exactly does it follow that if Bushido contributes to mana cost reduction that Chivalry should as well? They aren't related. Bushido is from Samurai Empire, and so it along with Ninjitsu reduce mana cost.

    Not saying it's a bad idea. I just don't see the logic behind it other than Chivalry is commonly used by dexxers, but there are other skills that also don't apply -- Anatomy and Tactics, for example.

    One question to ask is whether allowing other skills makes other dexxer templates more competitive with Sampires, or if it just makes Sampires all the more flexible. In the case of the latter, I think it'd be better not to give Sampires more dominance than they already have.
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,924
    edited February 2021
    As the OP says, he is suggesting this for old-school Paladin/Knight Template, which does not have bushido. So I think its fine.

    For sampire, this does nothing as we are already enjoying the reduction without this change.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
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  • JohnKnighthawkeJohnKnighthawke Posts: 432
    loop said:
    How exactly does it follow that if Bushido contributes to mana cost reduction that Chivalry should as well? They aren't related. Bushido is from Samurai Empire, and so it along with Ninjitsu reduce mana cost.

    Not saying it's a bad idea. I just don't see the logic behind it other than Chivalry is commonly used by dexxers, but there are other skills that also don't apply -- Anatomy and Tactics, for example.

    One question to ask is whether allowing other skills makes other dexxer templates more competitive with Sampires, or if it just makes Sampires all the more flexible. In the case of the latter, I think it'd be better not to give Sampires more dominance than they already have.
    How does it follow. Well you actually answered your own question. It's a dexxer support skill just like Bushido. Your attempt to link this system to a particular expansion has no basis in reality. Please note:

    [The Mana Cost of each special move can be reduced if the warrior’s skills are high enough. Add up the skill points for Swords, Mace Fighting, Fencing, Archery, Parrying, Lumberjacking, Stealth, Poisoning, Bushido and Ninjitsu. If the total lies between 200 and 299, subtract 5 from the Mana Cost. If the total is 300 or more, subtract 10 from the Mana Cost.]

    Of the skills on that list, only two are from the SE expansion, so your attempt to link this system to that expansion fails by definition.

    Chivalry ultimately is of a kin with the other skills on that list -- it's a dexxer support skill. A better question would be why it wasn't on the list to begin with. I could surmise that someone decided that Chivalry was a magic skill in an RP sense, whereas Bushido wasn't, but that's a little thin given that Ninjitsu is on that list and Ninjitsu allows you to turn into a rabbit (or disguise yourself as one but either way the point is it doesn't feel all that much less magic-y than Chivalry).

    I also am concerned about helping templates that do not need additional help, but what are the odds of doing that? The maximum lowering is already achieved at 300 points. If you have GM weapon skill, Bushido, and Parrying, then you have this.

    They could also probably code in something that prevents both Bushido and Chivalry from contributing to the lower cost at the same time. If they can't, if whatever systems they use are that ridiculously inflexible, then I'd wonder how they're making all these new systems for a shard that does not yet even exist.


  • looploop Posts: 382
    edited February 2021
    loop said:
    How exactly does it follow that if Bushido contributes to mana cost reduction that Chivalry should as well? They aren't related. Bushido is from Samurai Empire, and so it along with Ninjitsu reduce mana cost.

    Not saying it's a bad idea. I just don't see the logic behind it other than Chivalry is commonly used by dexxers, but there are other skills that also don't apply -- Anatomy and Tactics, for example.

    One question to ask is whether allowing other skills makes other dexxer templates more competitive with Sampires, or if it just makes Sampires all the more flexible. In the case of the latter, I think it'd be better not to give Sampires more dominance than they already have.
    How does it follow. Well you actually answered your own question. It's a dexxer support skill just like Bushido. Your attempt to link this system to a particular expansion has no basis in reality. Please note:

    [The Mana Cost of each special move can be reduced if the warrior’s skills are high enough. Add up the skill points for Swords, Mace Fighting, Fencing, Archery, Parrying, Lumberjacking, Stealth, Poisoning, Bushido and Ninjitsu. If the total lies between 200 and 299, subtract 5 from the Mana Cost. If the total is 300 or more, subtract 10 from the Mana Cost.]

    Of the skills on that list, only two are from the SE expansion, so your attempt to link this system to that expansion fails by definition.

    Chivalry ultimately is of a kin with the other skills on that list -- it's a dexxer support skill. A better question would be why it wasn't on the list to begin with. I could surmise that someone decided that Chivalry was a magic skill in an RP sense, whereas Bushido wasn't, but that's a little thin given that Ninjitsu is on that list and Ninjitsu allows you to turn into a rabbit (or disguise yourself as one but either way the point is it doesn't feel all that much less magic-y than Chivalry).

    I also am concerned about helping templates that do not need additional help, but what are the odds of doing that? The maximum lowering is already achieved at 300 points. If you have GM weapon skill, Bushido, and Parrying, then you have this.

    They could also probably code in something that prevents both Bushido and Chivalry from contributing to the lower cost at the same time. If they can't, if whatever systems they use are that ridiculously inflexible, then I'd wonder how they're making all these new systems for a shard that does not yet even exist.


    You're right that the expansion is irrelevant and that there isn't much distinction to be drawn from Bushido/Ninjitsu and Chivalry, other than that Chivalry is probably considered closer to a magic skill than the other two.

    In the end, it's arbitrary which skills contribute to mana cost reduction, and they could easily add Chivalry, Tactics, Anatomy, Healing... if they wanted to. Again, not a bad idea, but there balance concerns in that some Sampire builds only take Parrying to cap mana cost reduction, which could be counteracted by throwing some other skill into the equation. Would it be hugely impactful? Probably not - Sampires are overpowered in other ways.

    As I see it, the intention of the current list is to provide some incentive for specialized builds, while Chivalry provides benefit to dexxer builds of all types. Because most dexxers will take it, perhaps that's why it's not included.
  • JohnKnighthawkeJohnKnighthawke Posts: 432
    loop said:
    loop said:
    How exactly does it follow that if Bushido contributes to mana cost reduction that Chivalry should as well? They aren't related. Bushido is from Samurai Empire, and so it along with Ninjitsu reduce mana cost.

    Not saying it's a bad idea. I just don't see the logic behind it other than Chivalry is commonly used by dexxers, but there are other skills that also don't apply -- Anatomy and Tactics, for example.

    One question to ask is whether allowing other skills makes other dexxer templates more competitive with Sampires, or if it just makes Sampires all the more flexible. In the case of the latter, I think it'd be better not to give Sampires more dominance than they already have.
    How does it follow. Well you actually answered your own question. It's a dexxer support skill just like Bushido. Your attempt to link this system to a particular expansion has no basis in reality. Please note:

    [The Mana Cost of each special move can be reduced if the warrior’s skills are high enough. Add up the skill points for Swords, Mace Fighting, Fencing, Archery, Parrying, Lumberjacking, Stealth, Poisoning, Bushido and Ninjitsu. If the total lies between 200 and 299, subtract 5 from the Mana Cost. If the total is 300 or more, subtract 10 from the Mana Cost.]

    Of the skills on that list, only two are from the SE expansion, so your attempt to link this system to that expansion fails by definition.

    Chivalry ultimately is of a kin with the other skills on that list -- it's a dexxer support skill. A better question would be why it wasn't on the list to begin with. I could surmise that someone decided that Chivalry was a magic skill in an RP sense, whereas Bushido wasn't, but that's a little thin given that Ninjitsu is on that list and Ninjitsu allows you to turn into a rabbit (or disguise yourself as one but either way the point is it doesn't feel all that much less magic-y than Chivalry).

    I also am concerned about helping templates that do not need additional help, but what are the odds of doing that? The maximum lowering is already achieved at 300 points. If you have GM weapon skill, Bushido, and Parrying, then you have this.

    They could also probably code in something that prevents both Bushido and Chivalry from contributing to the lower cost at the same time. If they can't, if whatever systems they use are that ridiculously inflexible, then I'd wonder how they're making all these new systems for a shard that does not yet even exist.


    You're right that the expansion is irrelevant and that there isn't much distinction to be drawn from Bushido/Ninjitsu and Chivalry, other than that Chivalry is probably considered closer to a magic skill than the other two.

    In the end, it's arbitrary which skills contribute to mana cost reduction, and they could easily add Chivalry, Tactics, Anatomy, Healing... if they wanted to. Again, not a bad idea, but there balance concerns in that some Sampire builds only take Parrying to cap mana cost reduction, which could be counteracted by throwing some other skill into the equation. Would it be hugely impactful? Probably not - Sampires are overpowered in other ways.

    As I see it, the intention of the current list is to provide some incentive for specialized builds, while Chivalry provides benefit to dexxer builds of all types. Because most dexxers will take it, perhaps that's why it's not included.

    Based on what's on the list the idea was to include the main combat skills and then the support skills -- they obviously deliberately left off the main things that go along with weapon skills on almost every warrior template. I have no idea why. To even suggest excluding Chivalry because it "provides benefit to dexxer builds of all types" is a non-suggestion because, literally, any of those skills could provide a benefit to dexxer builds of all types, especially Bushido, which, as no one disputes, is on the list already. Indeed I've met far more templates with Bushido, and without Chivalry, than the reverse. I seem to be the exception.

    Any serious balancing concerns have other methods to deal with. OR aren't really serious concerns for the reason I've stated above. (Specifically, what are the odds that any given Sampire doesn't have 300 points in these skills with or without Chivalry? What are the odds that a Sampire relies on special moves as opposed to spamming Lightning Strike, which provides Armor Ignore damage at a lesser mana cost?)

    As to including yet more skills beyond Chivalry on the list, it's an intriguing notion, but not the notion to which this thread is dedicated.
  • looploop Posts: 382
    JohnKnighthawke said:
    loop said:
    loop said:
    How exactly does it follow that if Bushido contributes to mana cost reduction that Chivalry should as well? They aren't related. Bushido is from Samurai Empire, and so it along with Ninjitsu reduce mana cost.

    Not saying it's a bad idea. I just don't see the logic behind it other than Chivalry is commonly used by dexxers, but there are other skills that also don't apply -- Anatomy and Tactics, for example.

    One question to ask is whether allowing other skills makes other dexxer templates more competitive with Sampires, or if it just makes Sampires all the more flexible. In the case of the latter, I think it'd be better not to give Sampires more dominance than they already have.
    How does it follow. Well you actually answered your own question. It's a dexxer support skill just like Bushido. Your attempt to link this system to a particular expansion has no basis in reality. Please note:

    [The Mana Cost of each special move can be reduced if the warrior’s skills are high enough. Add up the skill points for Swords, Mace Fighting, Fencing, Archery, Parrying, Lumberjacking, Stealth, Poisoning, Bushido and Ninjitsu. If the total lies between 200 and 299, subtract 5 from the Mana Cost. If the total is 300 or more, subtract 10 from the Mana Cost.]

    Of the skills on that list, only two are from the SE expansion, so your attempt to link this system to that expansion fails by definition.

    Chivalry ultimately is of a kin with the other skills on that list -- it's a dexxer support skill. A better question would be why it wasn't on the list to begin with. I could surmise that someone decided that Chivalry was a magic skill in an RP sense, whereas Bushido wasn't, but that's a little thin given that Ninjitsu is on that list and Ninjitsu allows you to turn into a rabbit (or disguise yourself as one but either way the point is it doesn't feel all that much less magic-y than Chivalry).

    I also am concerned about helping templates that do not need additional help, but what are the odds of doing that? The maximum lowering is already achieved at 300 points. If you have GM weapon skill, Bushido, and Parrying, then you have this.

    They could also probably code in something that prevents both Bushido and Chivalry from contributing to the lower cost at the same time. If they can't, if whatever systems they use are that ridiculously inflexible, then I'd wonder how they're making all these new systems for a shard that does not yet even exist.


    You're right that the expansion is irrelevant and that there isn't much distinction to be drawn from Bushido/Ninjitsu and Chivalry, other than that Chivalry is probably considered closer to a magic skill than the other two.

    In the end, it's arbitrary which skills contribute to mana cost reduction, and they could easily add Chivalry, Tactics, Anatomy, Healing... if they wanted to. Again, not a bad idea, but there balance concerns in that some Sampire builds only take Parrying to cap mana cost reduction, which could be counteracted by throwing some other skill into the equation. Would it be hugely impactful? Probably not - Sampires are overpowered in other ways.

    As I see it, the intention of the current list is to provide some incentive for specialized builds, while Chivalry provides benefit to dexxer builds of all types. Because most dexxers will take it, perhaps that's why it's not included.

    Based on what's on the list the idea was to include the main combat skills and then the support skills -- they obviously deliberately left off the main things that go along with weapon skills on almost every warrior template. I have no idea why. To even suggest excluding Chivalry because it "provides benefit to dexxer builds of all types" is a non-suggestion because, literally, any of those skills could provide a benefit to dexxer builds of all types, especially Bushido, which, as no one disputes, is on the list already. Indeed I've met far more templates with Bushido, and without Chivalry, than the reverse. I seem to be the exception.

    Any serious balancing concerns have other methods to deal with. OR aren't really serious concerns for the reason I've stated above. (Specifically, what are the odds that any given Sampire doesn't have 300 points in these skills with or without Chivalry? What are the odds that a Sampire relies on special moves as opposed to spamming Lightning Strike, which provides Armor Ignore damage at a lesser mana cost?)

    As to including yet more skills beyond Chivalry on the list, it's an intriguing notion, but not the notion to which this thread is dedicated.
    Yeah, I think the intention with that list is to encourage specialization rather than just enumerate any number of dexxer support skills.

    It might be the case that Bushido is more widely used among dexxers, but I would say that mechanically Bushido is still a more specialized skill than Chivalry. When you take Bushido, you're at least weakening your ability to parry with a shield for example, whereas Chivalry is useful to dexxers regardless of equipment.

    Regarding Sampires, we're not in disagreement. Again, I'm just offering some design explanation as to why Chivalry and others are not included.
  • JohnKnighthawkeJohnKnighthawke Posts: 432
    loop said:
    JohnKnighthawke said:
    loop said:
    loop said:
    How exactly does it follow that if Bushido contributes to mana cost reduction that Chivalry should as well? They aren't related. Bushido is from Samurai Empire, and so it along with Ninjitsu reduce mana cost.

    Not saying it's a bad idea. I just don't see the logic behind it other than Chivalry is commonly used by dexxers, but there are other skills that also don't apply -- Anatomy and Tactics, for example.

    One question to ask is whether allowing other skills makes other dexxer templates more competitive with Sampires, or if it just makes Sampires all the more flexible. In the case of the latter, I think it'd be better not to give Sampires more dominance than they already have.
    How does it follow. Well you actually answered your own question. It's a dexxer support skill just like Bushido. Your attempt to link this system to a particular expansion has no basis in reality. Please note:

    [The Mana Cost of each special move can be reduced if the warrior’s skills are high enough. Add up the skill points for Swords, Mace Fighting, Fencing, Archery, Parrying, Lumberjacking, Stealth, Poisoning, Bushido and Ninjitsu. If the total lies between 200 and 299, subtract 5 from the Mana Cost. If the total is 300 or more, subtract 10 from the Mana Cost.]

    Of the skills on that list, only two are from the SE expansion, so your attempt to link this system to that expansion fails by definition.

    Chivalry ultimately is of a kin with the other skills on that list -- it's a dexxer support skill. A better question would be why it wasn't on the list to begin with. I could surmise that someone decided that Chivalry was a magic skill in an RP sense, whereas Bushido wasn't, but that's a little thin given that Ninjitsu is on that list and Ninjitsu allows you to turn into a rabbit (or disguise yourself as one but either way the point is it doesn't feel all that much less magic-y than Chivalry).

    I also am concerned about helping templates that do not need additional help, but what are the odds of doing that? The maximum lowering is already achieved at 300 points. If you have GM weapon skill, Bushido, and Parrying, then you have this.

    They could also probably code in something that prevents both Bushido and Chivalry from contributing to the lower cost at the same time. If they can't, if whatever systems they use are that ridiculously inflexible, then I'd wonder how they're making all these new systems for a shard that does not yet even exist.


    You're right that the expansion is irrelevant and that there isn't much distinction to be drawn from Bushido/Ninjitsu and Chivalry, other than that Chivalry is probably considered closer to a magic skill than the other two.

    In the end, it's arbitrary which skills contribute to mana cost reduction, and they could easily add Chivalry, Tactics, Anatomy, Healing... if they wanted to. Again, not a bad idea, but there balance concerns in that some Sampire builds only take Parrying to cap mana cost reduction, which could be counteracted by throwing some other skill into the equation. Would it be hugely impactful? Probably not - Sampires are overpowered in other ways.

    As I see it, the intention of the current list is to provide some incentive for specialized builds, while Chivalry provides benefit to dexxer builds of all types. Because most dexxers will take it, perhaps that's why it's not included.

    Based on what's on the list the idea was to include the main combat skills and then the support skills -- they obviously deliberately left off the main things that go along with weapon skills on almost every warrior template. I have no idea why. To even suggest excluding Chivalry because it "provides benefit to dexxer builds of all types" is a non-suggestion because, literally, any of those skills could provide a benefit to dexxer builds of all types, especially Bushido, which, as no one disputes, is on the list already. Indeed I've met far more templates with Bushido, and without Chivalry, than the reverse. I seem to be the exception.

    Any serious balancing concerns have other methods to deal with. OR aren't really serious concerns for the reason I've stated above. (Specifically, what are the odds that any given Sampire doesn't have 300 points in these skills with or without Chivalry? What are the odds that a Sampire relies on special moves as opposed to spamming Lightning Strike, which provides Armor Ignore damage at a lesser mana cost?)

    As to including yet more skills beyond Chivalry on the list, it's an intriguing notion, but not the notion to which this thread is dedicated.
    Yeah, I think the intention with that list is to encourage specialization rather than just enumerate any number of dexxer support skills.

    It might be the case that Bushido is more widely used among dexxers, but I would say that mechanically Bushido is still a more specialized skill than Chivalry. When you take Bushido, you're at least weakening your ability to parry with a shield for example, whereas Chivalry is useful to dexxers regardless of equipment.

    Regarding Sampires, we're not in disagreement. Again, I'm just offering some design explanation as to why Chivalry and others are not included.

    Describing a skill in terms of its disadvantages and advantages isn't really relevant to the topic of the thread. For example, you as easily could have described Bushido as actually increasing your ability to parry without a shield. Or, you could keep in mind that it affords benefits to dexxers who don't have Parry at all, or for whom Parry is not as relevant due to combat style (Archers, Throwers). Which basically defeats any kind of argument that Bushido is some kind of ultra-specialized skill whereas Chivalry has broader benefits.

    Because Bushido also has broader benefits.

    But I as-easily could describe Chivalry in a similar manner by counting up its disadvantages. For example I could say that Chivalry is actually more specialized than Bushido because one of its main damage increase abilities (Enemy of One) actually renders you more vulnerable to other targets. (It's worth noting that the equivalent of this ability in Bushido, known as Perfection, does not afford a similar disadvantage.) So does this mean that Chivalry solely assists players who build their template and combat style around the concept of not behind hit by more than one type of foe at once? No it doesn't. Because like Bushido there are other, broader benefits.

    And, furthermore, the question isn't relevant to the topic.
  • FortisFortis Posts: 411
    Chiv can be 4/6 strong enought
  • looploop Posts: 382
    JohnKnighthawke said:
    loop said:
    JohnKnighthawke said:
    loop said:
    loop said:
    How exactly does it follow that if Bushido contributes to mana cost reduction that Chivalry should as well? They aren't related. Bushido is from Samurai Empire, and so it along with Ninjitsu reduce mana cost.

    Not saying it's a bad idea. I just don't see the logic behind it other than Chivalry is commonly used by dexxers, but there are other skills that also don't apply -- Anatomy and Tactics, for example.

    One question to ask is whether allowing other skills makes other dexxer templates more competitive with Sampires, or if it just makes Sampires all the more flexible. In the case of the latter, I think it'd be better not to give Sampires more dominance than they already have.
    How does it follow. Well you actually answered your own question. It's a dexxer support skill just like Bushido. Your attempt to link this system to a particular expansion has no basis in reality. Please note:

    [The Mana Cost of each special move can be reduced if the warrior’s skills are high enough. Add up the skill points for Swords, Mace Fighting, Fencing, Archery, Parrying, Lumberjacking, Stealth, Poisoning, Bushido and Ninjitsu. If the total lies between 200 and 299, subtract 5 from the Mana Cost. If the total is 300 or more, subtract 10 from the Mana Cost.]

    Of the skills on that list, only two are from the SE expansion, so your attempt to link this system to that expansion fails by definition.

    Chivalry ultimately is of a kin with the other skills on that list -- it's a dexxer support skill. A better question would be why it wasn't on the list to begin with. I could surmise that someone decided that Chivalry was a magic skill in an RP sense, whereas Bushido wasn't, but that's a little thin given that Ninjitsu is on that list and Ninjitsu allows you to turn into a rabbit (or disguise yourself as one but either way the point is it doesn't feel all that much less magic-y than Chivalry).

    I also am concerned about helping templates that do not need additional help, but what are the odds of doing that? The maximum lowering is already achieved at 300 points. If you have GM weapon skill, Bushido, and Parrying, then you have this.

    They could also probably code in something that prevents both Bushido and Chivalry from contributing to the lower cost at the same time. If they can't, if whatever systems they use are that ridiculously inflexible, then I'd wonder how they're making all these new systems for a shard that does not yet even exist.


    You're right that the expansion is irrelevant and that there isn't much distinction to be drawn from Bushido/Ninjitsu and Chivalry, other than that Chivalry is probably considered closer to a magic skill than the other two.

    In the end, it's arbitrary which skills contribute to mana cost reduction, and they could easily add Chivalry, Tactics, Anatomy, Healing... if they wanted to. Again, not a bad idea, but there balance concerns in that some Sampire builds only take Parrying to cap mana cost reduction, which could be counteracted by throwing some other skill into the equation. Would it be hugely impactful? Probably not - Sampires are overpowered in other ways.

    As I see it, the intention of the current list is to provide some incentive for specialized builds, while Chivalry provides benefit to dexxer builds of all types. Because most dexxers will take it, perhaps that's why it's not included.

    Based on what's on the list the idea was to include the main combat skills and then the support skills -- they obviously deliberately left off the main things that go along with weapon skills on almost every warrior template. I have no idea why. To even suggest excluding Chivalry because it "provides benefit to dexxer builds of all types" is a non-suggestion because, literally, any of those skills could provide a benefit to dexxer builds of all types, especially Bushido, which, as no one disputes, is on the list already. Indeed I've met far more templates with Bushido, and without Chivalry, than the reverse. I seem to be the exception.

    Any serious balancing concerns have other methods to deal with. OR aren't really serious concerns for the reason I've stated above. (Specifically, what are the odds that any given Sampire doesn't have 300 points in these skills with or without Chivalry? What are the odds that a Sampire relies on special moves as opposed to spamming Lightning Strike, which provides Armor Ignore damage at a lesser mana cost?)

    As to including yet more skills beyond Chivalry on the list, it's an intriguing notion, but not the notion to which this thread is dedicated.
    Yeah, I think the intention with that list is to encourage specialization rather than just enumerate any number of dexxer support skills.

    It might be the case that Bushido is more widely used among dexxers, but I would say that mechanically Bushido is still a more specialized skill than Chivalry. When you take Bushido, you're at least weakening your ability to parry with a shield for example, whereas Chivalry is useful to dexxers regardless of equipment.

    Regarding Sampires, we're not in disagreement. Again, I'm just offering some design explanation as to why Chivalry and others are not included.

    Describing a skill in terms of its disadvantages and advantages isn't really relevant to the topic of the thread. For example, you as easily could have described Bushido as actually increasing your ability to parry without a shield. Or, you could keep in mind that it affords benefits to dexxers who don't have Parry at all, or for whom Parry is not as relevant due to combat style (Archers, Throwers). Which basically defeats any kind of argument that Bushido is some kind of ultra-specialized skill whereas Chivalry has broader benefits.

    Because Bushido also has broader benefits.

    But I as-easily could describe Chivalry in a similar manner by counting up its disadvantages. For example I could say that Chivalry is actually more specialized than Bushido because one of its main damage increase abilities (Enemy of One) actually renders you more vulnerable to other targets. (It's worth noting that the equivalent of this ability in Bushido, known as Perfection, does not afford a similar disadvantage.) So does this mean that Chivalry solely assists players who build their template and combat style around the concept of not behind hit by more than one type of foe at once? No it doesn't. Because like Bushido there are other, broader benefits.

    And, furthermore, the question isn't relevant to the topic.
    I didn't say Bushido was ultra-specialized. I drew the comparison between it and Chivalry because that's what your original post is doing.

    I wouldn't say Enemy of One is specialized. It can increase your damage against any type of monster at one time. Situational? Sure, but it's useful against anything, really. But yeah, it's dumb to get into semantics.
  • JohnKnighthawkeJohnKnighthawke Posts: 432
    loop said:
    JohnKnighthawke said:
    loop said:
    JohnKnighthawke said:
    loop said:
    loop said:
    How exactly does it follow that if Bushido contributes to mana cost reduction that Chivalry should as well? They aren't related. Bushido is from Samurai Empire, and so it along with Ninjitsu reduce mana cost.

    Not saying it's a bad idea. I just don't see the logic behind it other than Chivalry is commonly used by dexxers, but there are other skills that also don't apply -- Anatomy and Tactics, for example.

    One question to ask is whether allowing other skills makes other dexxer templates more competitive with Sampires, or if it just makes Sampires all the more flexible. In the case of the latter, I think it'd be better not to give Sampires more dominance than they already have.
    How does it follow. Well you actually answered your own question. It's a dexxer support skill just like Bushido. Your attempt to link this system to a particular expansion has no basis in reality. Please note:

    [The Mana Cost of each special move can be reduced if the warrior’s skills are high enough. Add up the skill points for Swords, Mace Fighting, Fencing, Archery, Parrying, Lumberjacking, Stealth, Poisoning, Bushido and Ninjitsu. If the total lies between 200 and 299, subtract 5 from the Mana Cost. If the total is 300 or more, subtract 10 from the Mana Cost.]

    Of the skills on that list, only two are from the SE expansion, so your attempt to link this system to that expansion fails by definition.

    Chivalry ultimately is of a kin with the other skills on that list -- it's a dexxer support skill. A better question would be why it wasn't on the list to begin with. I could surmise that someone decided that Chivalry was a magic skill in an RP sense, whereas Bushido wasn't, but that's a little thin given that Ninjitsu is on that list and Ninjitsu allows you to turn into a rabbit (or disguise yourself as one but either way the point is it doesn't feel all that much less magic-y than Chivalry).

    I also am concerned about helping templates that do not need additional help, but what are the odds of doing that? The maximum lowering is already achieved at 300 points. If you have GM weapon skill, Bushido, and Parrying, then you have this.

    They could also probably code in something that prevents both Bushido and Chivalry from contributing to the lower cost at the same time. If they can't, if whatever systems they use are that ridiculously inflexible, then I'd wonder how they're making all these new systems for a shard that does not yet even exist.


    You're right that the expansion is irrelevant and that there isn't much distinction to be drawn from Bushido/Ninjitsu and Chivalry, other than that Chivalry is probably considered closer to a magic skill than the other two.

    In the end, it's arbitrary which skills contribute to mana cost reduction, and they could easily add Chivalry, Tactics, Anatomy, Healing... if they wanted to. Again, not a bad idea, but there balance concerns in that some Sampire builds only take Parrying to cap mana cost reduction, which could be counteracted by throwing some other skill into the equation. Would it be hugely impactful? Probably not - Sampires are overpowered in other ways.

    As I see it, the intention of the current list is to provide some incentive for specialized builds, while Chivalry provides benefit to dexxer builds of all types. Because most dexxers will take it, perhaps that's why it's not included.

    Based on what's on the list the idea was to include the main combat skills and then the support skills -- they obviously deliberately left off the main things that go along with weapon skills on almost every warrior template. I have no idea why. To even suggest excluding Chivalry because it "provides benefit to dexxer builds of all types" is a non-suggestion because, literally, any of those skills could provide a benefit to dexxer builds of all types, especially Bushido, which, as no one disputes, is on the list already. Indeed I've met far more templates with Bushido, and without Chivalry, than the reverse. I seem to be the exception.

    Any serious balancing concerns have other methods to deal with. OR aren't really serious concerns for the reason I've stated above. (Specifically, what are the odds that any given Sampire doesn't have 300 points in these skills with or without Chivalry? What are the odds that a Sampire relies on special moves as opposed to spamming Lightning Strike, which provides Armor Ignore damage at a lesser mana cost?)

    As to including yet more skills beyond Chivalry on the list, it's an intriguing notion, but not the notion to which this thread is dedicated.
    Yeah, I think the intention with that list is to encourage specialization rather than just enumerate any number of dexxer support skills.

    It might be the case that Bushido is more widely used among dexxers, but I would say that mechanically Bushido is still a more specialized skill than Chivalry. When you take Bushido, you're at least weakening your ability to parry with a shield for example, whereas Chivalry is useful to dexxers regardless of equipment.

    Regarding Sampires, we're not in disagreement. Again, I'm just offering some design explanation as to why Chivalry and others are not included.

    Describing a skill in terms of its disadvantages and advantages isn't really relevant to the topic of the thread. For example, you as easily could have described Bushido as actually increasing your ability to parry without a shield. Or, you could keep in mind that it affords benefits to dexxers who don't have Parry at all, or for whom Parry is not as relevant due to combat style (Archers, Throwers). Which basically defeats any kind of argument that Bushido is some kind of ultra-specialized skill whereas Chivalry has broader benefits.

    Because Bushido also has broader benefits.

    But I as-easily could describe Chivalry in a similar manner by counting up its disadvantages. For example I could say that Chivalry is actually more specialized than Bushido because one of its main damage increase abilities (Enemy of One) actually renders you more vulnerable to other targets. (It's worth noting that the equivalent of this ability in Bushido, known as Perfection, does not afford a similar disadvantage.) So does this mean that Chivalry solely assists players who build their template and combat style around the concept of not behind hit by more than one type of foe at once? No it doesn't. Because like Bushido there are other, broader benefits.

    And, furthermore, the question isn't relevant to the topic.
    I didn't say Bushido was ultra-specialized. I drew the comparison between it and Chivalry because that's what your original post is doing.

    I wouldn't say Enemy of One is specialized. It can increase your damage against any type of monster at one time. Situational? Sure, but it's useful against anything, really. But yeah, it's dumb to get into semantics.

    If you're going to say it's dumb to get into semantics then stop doing it. If you are going to raise points that I think can be refuted then I am going to do my best to refute them. In this case, I believe that I have.
  • JohnKnighthawkeJohnKnighthawke Posts: 432
    Fortis said:
    Chiv can be 4/6 strong enought

    I have yet to hear of anyone not use Bushido because the spells aren't fast enough, even with FC0 and FCR0. So if anything your post bolsters the opposite argument you intend to make because you've accidentally highlighted just how much Chivalry needs FC and FCR to do all-that-much unless it's used in conjunction with something else, like Bushido.
  • PlayerSkillFTWPlayerSkillFTW Posts: 611
    Chivalry, Bushido, and Ninjitsu are all Martial Magic skills. They're designed to be used in tandem with a Weapon skill, for the most part. Unlike Arcane Magic skills (Magery/Necro/SW/Myst), which are not dependent upon weapons for the most part (only Curse Weapon, Immolating Weapon, and Enchant Weapon spells from them do).
    There isn't much of a reason why Chivalry shouldn't contribute to Weapon Special Discount. Especially since they made it more Skill dependent and less Karma dependent.

    JohnKnighthawke said:
     What are the odds that a Sampire relies on special moves as opposed to spamming Lightning Strike, which provides Armor Ignore damage at a lesser mana cost?)

    Lightning Strike has been inferior to Armor Ignore for quite awhile now, since they doubled it's base Mana Cost from 5 to 10. Even at 120 Bushido, LS only has a 20% chance to deliver a Critical (ignoring resists at full damage). On average, you'd have to do 5 Lightning Strikes to deal 1 Critical, that's 50 Base Mana Cost. An Armor Ignore with 300 skill points is 20 Base Mana Cost, and is guaranteed to ignore resists with 90% damage. Even a chained AI (doubling it's Mana Cost) is only 40 Base Mana Cost then.
    With weapon damage and Mana Leech being so high now, most Dexxers can easily spam AI non-stop for guaranteed resist ignore. The +50% HCI from Lightning Strike is moot now too, now that it's so easy to reach the cap of 45% HCI on your suit.
  • ezikelezikel Posts: 90
    i agree they should add them and healing on the list .its dont make sense that a bok mage have the bonus and not a archer with healing
    Special move mana cost can be decreased by having multiples of certain skills. With 200 to 299 combined skill points, the cost will decrease by 5 mana. Having 300 or more it will decrease by 10 mana. The included skills are:

    Swordsmanship
    Mace Fighting
    Fencing
    Archery
    Parrying
    Lumberjacking
    Stealth
    Poisoning
    Bushido
    Ninjitsu
    Throwing
    +skills on items count towards the 200 or 300 needed for this.
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