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New Tmap proposals

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  • FaerylFaeryl Posts: 273
    popps said:

    My apologies if I may have sounded rude, it was not my intention.

    In regards to the Publish notes, well, the line that reads : "If the player moves more than 16 tiles away from the chest or is killed during the disarming process, the process must be restarted." in what other possible way can it be read other then "the process MUST be restarted", which it means a second and a third and a fourth and a fifth etc. etc. etc. spawn of Ancient Chest Guardians (with no loot) on top of any and all of the previous ones will be "triggered" whenever the Treasure Hunter will either "die" or move farther then 16 tiles from the Chest ?
    A. Kill off the previous spawn before attempting again
    B. Bring friends to occupy and kill the spawn.
    C. Use a tamer, have the pet kill the spawn.

    It's not as impossible as you make it sound. 
  • Tarragon_SlayerTarragon_Slayer Posts: 38
    Whoohoo! These are changes I can very much live with. Many thanks!
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,041
    edited May 2019
    Faeryl said:
    popps said:

    My apologies if I may have sounded rude, it was not my intention.

    In regards to the Publish notes, well, the line that reads : "If the player moves more than 16 tiles away from the chest or is killed during the disarming process, the process must be restarted." in what other possible way can it be read other then "the process MUST be restarted", which it means a second and a third and a fourth and a fifth etc. etc. etc. spawn of Ancient Chest Guardians (with no loot) on top of any and all of the previous ones will be "triggered" whenever the Treasure Hunter will either "die" or move farther then 16 tiles from the Chest ?
    A. Kill off the previous spawn before attempting again
    B. Bring friends to occupy and kill the spawn.
    C. Use a tamer, have the pet kill the spawn.

    It's not as impossible as you make it sound. 
    # 1 - We are talking of "No-Loot" Creatures so, having to kill various "waves" of them would have no benefit whatsoever (no reward);

    # 2 - Aren't Treasure Chests on a timer ?

    Which it means, that the longer it takes, whatever the reasons, to get rid of the spawn, ALL of the spawn, be them Remove Trap Ancient Chest "waves" of Guardians and Chest's Guardians, the higher the chances to do all of that fighting work to then see the Chest go "poof" before the Treasure Hunter will be able to loot it because all of that fighting took too long....

    How would this be supposed to be fun when the work will end up with no reward ?

    And all this not to have Puzzles ?

    But I'd rather have Puzzles instead a million times....
  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 1,200Dev
    In case it’s not clear from the note...

    No items will be destroyed under any circumstances.  You cannot use telekinesis and you cannot set the trap off.  You use Remove Trap to diffuse the trap regardless of skill level.  If you have the skill you will have a shorter time to disarm the trap which will equate to less damage from the trap as you diffuse it and less spawn to deal with.  
  • FaerylFaeryl Posts: 273
    popps 

    # 1 - We are talking of "No-Loot" Creatures so, having to kill various "waves" of them would have no benefit whatsoever (no reward);

    # 2 - Aren't Treasure Chests on a timer ?

    Which it means, that the longer it takes, whatever the reasons, to get rid of the spawn, ALL of the spawn, be them Remove Trap Ancient Chest "waves" of Guardians and Chest's Guardians, the higher the chances to do all of that fighting work to then see the Chest go "poof" before the Treasure Hunter will be able to loot it because all of that fighting took too long....

    How would this be supposed to be fun when the work will end up with no reward ?

    And all this not to have Puzzles ?

    But I'd rather have Puzzles instead a million times....
    1. People didn't want the puzzles, so they came up with another means of making you work for it. They're not just going to hand you the reward without effort.

    2. Yes, they are in a sense. Over time, items will decay. However, it's really not much different than the fact that looting a chest currently runs the risk of a monster spawning.

    Yes, you can (and will probably try to) argue that it'll just take longer if you have to remove the trap while fighting those monsters, then kill as you loot, but... there are now fewer items in the chests. Fewer chances for monsters to spawn while looting. Ergo, I feel it balances out fairly well in the end.

    I would prefer puzzles as well, don't get me wrong. Myst is one of my favourite series of games for a reason. However, the overwhelming majority speaking out were against it, so that's the end of that story.
  • TimTim Posts: 826
    To paraphrase The great and wonderful K don't panic till they get it into TC1

    I'm not overly happy with some of what I read but am willing to wait and see rather then guess.
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,041
    Faeryl said:
    # 1 - We are talking of "No-Loot" Creatures so, having to kill various "waves" of them would have no benefit whatsoever (no reward);

    # 2 - Aren't Treasure Chests on a timer ?

    Which it means, that the longer it takes, whatever the reasons, to get rid of the spawn, ALL of the spawn, be them Remove Trap Ancient Chest "waves" of Guardians and Chest's Guardians, the higher the chances to do all of that fighting work to then see the Chest go "poof" before the Treasure Hunter will be able to loot it because all of that fighting took too long....

    How would this be supposed to be fun when the work will end up with no reward ?

    And all this not to have Puzzles ?

    But I'd rather have Puzzles instead a million times....
    1. People didn't want the puzzles, so they came up with another means of making you work for it. They're not just going to hand you the reward without effort.

    2. Yes, they are in a sense. Over time, items will decay. However, it's really not much different than the fact that looting a chest currently runs the risk of a monster spawning.

    Yes, you can (and will probably try to) argue that it'll just take longer if you have to remove the trap while fighting those monsters, then kill as you loot, but... there are now fewer items in the chests. Fewer chances for monsters to spawn while looting. Ergo, I feel it balances out fairly well in the end.

    I would prefer puzzles as well, don't get me wrong. Myst is one of my favourite series of games for a reason. However, the overwhelming majority speaking out were against it, so that's the end of that story.
    "I would prefer puzzles as well, don't get me wrong. Myst is one of my favourite series of games for a reason. However, the overwhelming majority speaking out were against it, so that's the end of that story."

    Yet, it is clear to me that, as with everything, there were players not wanting Puzzles and players wanting Puzzles.

    The solution which the Developers had come up with, was covering BOTH ends of the aisles since THREE Treasure Maps came with no Puzzles and only TWO Treasure Maps came with Puzzles.

    If implemented, it would have covered BOTH parties, those not wanting Puzzles and those wanting them instead.

    Instead, we will now have one side (the one that wanted Puzzles) have to be SUBJECT, totally, to the other that did not want Puzzles.

    Personally, I do not see this as fair.

    Furthermore, there COULD have been another way to implement Puzzles without upsetting those who did not want them as I mentioned in this Post here https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/27017/#Comment_27017

    That is, to add a SECRET COMPARTMENT to Treasure Chests with high end stuff in it like Artifacts, Legendary items or large stocks of ML/Imbuable Resources or of rare Recipes/Powerscrolls....

    Such Secret Compartment would have required DETECT HIDDEN to be found as existing, and REMOVE TRAP to have access to it.

    This way, the Puzzle could have easily been added to the Removing of the Trap to such a Secret, hidden Compartment and, being ADDED content, complaints would have been far less since those who did not want to bother with Solving Puzzles (or adding Detect Hidden on top of Remove Trap to their Treasure Hunting Template) would have just left alone this added content and only interacted with the general Chest....

    This way, those players NOT wanting to deal with Puzzles would have just done the general Chest while those players instead WANTING to deal with Puzzles (and also accepting to add Detect Hidden to their Treasure Hunting Template on top of Cartography, Lockpicking and Remove Trap...) would have enjoyed the Secret, hidden Compartment special contents.....

    Now, instead, the "Puzzle lovers" will have NOTHING.

    How is the "new" solution then a fair and acceptable one, if I may ask, towards all of these "other" players ?
  • KirthagKirthag Posts: 541
    Thank you @Kyronix
    Looking forward to playing around with this.

    when will this be on the TC? I get you guys are "off" now and enjoying your long weekend.
    can we plan for.... Wednesday?

    kirthag.blogspot.com
  • MargretteMargrette Posts: 549
    edited May 2019
    popps said:
    Faeryl said:
    popps said:

    My apologies if I may have sounded rude, it was not my intention.

    In regards to the Publish notes, well, the line that reads : "If the player moves more than 16 tiles away from the chest or is killed during the disarming process, the process must be restarted." in what other possible way can it be read other then "the process MUST be restarted", which it means a second and a third and a fourth and a fifth etc. etc. etc. spawn of Ancient Chest Guardians (with no loot) on top of any and all of the previous ones will be "triggered" whenever the Treasure Hunter will either "die" or move farther then 16 tiles from the Chest ?
    A. Kill off the previous spawn before attempting again
    B. Bring friends to occupy and kill the spawn.
    C. Use a tamer, have the pet kill the spawn.

    It's not as impossible as you make it sound. 
    # 1 - We are talking of "No-Loot" Creatures so, having to kill various "waves" of them would have no benefit whatsoever (no reward);

    # 2 - Aren't Treasure Chests on a timer ?

    Which it means, that the longer it takes, whatever the reasons, to get rid of the spawn, ALL of the spawn, be them Remove Trap Ancient Chest "waves" of Guardians and Chest's Guardians, the higher the chances to do all of that fighting work to then see the Chest go "poof" before the Treasure Hunter will be able to loot it because all of that fighting took too long....

    How would this be supposed to be fun when the work will end up with no reward ?

    And all this not to have Puzzles ?

    But I'd rather have Puzzles instead a million times....
    Popps, I'm just guessing here, but I imagine that if your remove trap skill is fairly high, using remove trap is going to be quick and easy.  I have been doing stash, supply and cache chests on TC all this time with just 50 remove trap and I don't think I had any failures with it.  (Lock picking failures on those same chests with GM lockpicking, however, did happen a few times.) One aspect of using remove trap that I've always loved is that it removes all the traps on a chest at once.  That may not be relevant for treasure chests, but it's pretty cool to remove 2 or 3 traps all at once from a dungeon or town chest.

    We will just have to wait until next week to find out a few things:
    • How much remove trap skill is required to disarm the traps on each level of chest with only one try most of the time;
    • Whether the skill use timer has been removed so you have an idea of how long you have to wait before being able to try again and thus what your chances are for having something spawn while you're trying to disarm a trap; 
    • Whether your character becomes visible when using the remove trap skill;
    • What the requirements are to buy the first amounts of the skill training from an NPC;
    • Whether the skill will be available in the future if you use an advanced character or mythic token for skill gain;
    • What is the best/fastest/cheapest process for training the skill at various levels of the skill, i.e., use the puzzle trainers or remove traps on trapped chests.  I think  there's no delay now between each puzzle attempt on TC and you sometimes get more than a .1 gain when you successfully complete a puzzle (e.g., you might get a .4 or .6 gain).  But if you're not very good at puzzles, it can take a few minutes to successfully finish one and in the meantime you're not gaining any skill.  On the other hand, if you train by removing traps from chests, there's a delay between each time you try to use the skill, plus the chests have to be trapped again before you can use them again.  And if you're using your own character to trap the chests, you'll have to train tinkering on that character as you train remove trap skill so the traps aren't too difficult or too easy to get gains, plus you'll use up bolts and ingots in the process and put some significant wear on your armor too. (Hint: Don't wear gloves when disarming traps.)
  • MargretteMargrette Posts: 549
    @Kyronix, the news from today says, "If the player moves more than 16 tiles away from the chest or is killed during the disarming process, the process must be restarted."

    Does this mean the chest vanishes and you have to dig it up again?  I'm having trouble envisioning disarming a trap as a "process."  Either an attempt works or it doesn't and then you have to wait out the skill use timer and try again.  But with the addition of the ancient chest guardians, I guess getting them killed off without getting your t-hunter killed at the same time or run off too far is going to be a process.  

    I sure wish remove trap didn't have a timer that interferes with using it again or using another skill.  No peace bombs for my t-hunter when the ancient chest guardian spawns and she has to plant her feet!  

    I guess I'll have to wait until next week to see how this works out.  I'm just curious if we have to dig up the chest again if removing the trap turns into a deadly situation.
  • FaerylFaeryl Posts: 273
    edited May 2019
    Margrette said:
    @ Kyronix, the news from today says, "If the player moves more than 16 tiles away from the chest or is killed during the disarming process, the process must be restarted."

    Does this mean the chest vanishes and you have to dig it up again?  I'm having trouble envisioning disarming a trap as a "process."  Either an attempt works or it doesn't and then you have to wait out the skill use timer and try again.  But with the addition of the ancient chest guardians, I guess getting them killed off without getting your t-hunter killed at the same time or run off too far is going to be a process.  

    I sure wish remove trap didn't have a timer that interferes with using it again or using another skill.  No peace bombs for my t-hunter when the ancient chest guardian spawns and she has to plant her feet!  

    I guess I'll have to wait until next week to see how this works out.  I'm just curious if we have to dig up the chest again if removing the trap turns into a deadly situation.
    To me it comes across as just that if you fail,  you'll have to restart the timer on removing the trap again
  • TimStTimSt Posts: 1,875
    If the grubber spawns on every failed lock pick why would you need the lock picking and rt skills?  Just purposely fail to pick the lock with 0 skill and let the grubbers remove everything for you?
  • PawainPawain Posts: 10,289
    edited May 2019
    Wow that was a lot of Drama.

    They cant let those Mobs drop stuff because we would spawn them over and over.  More stuff to kill.  Thanks for Listening @Kyronix ; I can kill beacons for whips while you make the T Hunting spectacular.

    Happy Holiday


    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,834
    Those are some nice changes, congrats to all that got them done.
  • Yadd_of_LegendsYadd_of_Legends Posts: 35
    "I do not understand the logic of it."
    I imagine the logic of the 16-tile rule is to pressure solo thunters into bringing others with them to defend against the spawn while they're working to remove the trap. Otherwise the player could just run away a couple screens, lure the spawn away and get back to work. I guess a key question is whether the thunter will be able to work on removing trap while remaining invisible or hidden. If so, they could still open the chest and then start on the additional spawn, just a little extra work.
  • TimStTimSt Posts: 1,875
    Per the following bullet point luring the monster away while another player opens the chest will not work.

    • These monsters must be defeated before the chest can be opened.
  • MissEMissE Posts: 782
    edited May 2019
    My only comment is leave it alone completely unless the loot is fixed. 

    You just added another whole skill to the process, (I have already trained it so don't really care about it other than it is a waste of 100 points which has to now be stoned on and off the character each time I play it as it is used for nothing else). So I can live with it, just wonder what the purpose is? IF it is to justify better loot all good. I don't mind a trade off for extra skill even the extra guardian remove trap process if the loot is better.

     As for the proposed 16 tile 'guardian trap' spawn. If you have an ancient frost dragon/cold drake spawn tied 16 tiles to the chest you often need to move more than 16 tiles in the battle especially due to the cold dmg they give off and with the ai those things have they chase you so to heal you may need to get off screen. You are not luring it away just keeping it off you to heal yourself or pet.  Also what happens when the ancient wyrm, frost dragon, balron, greater dragon decides to take off especially when it gets super low on hit points, all those mobs fly away to escape?  We could have an endless loop of the remove trap resetting each time they take off.  This will need to be addressed, so unless you tie the spawn to stay within 16 tiles you have another issue. Why should this mob NOT have loot? What is the purpose of that, it seems to be mean for being mean sake? 

    As said above, if the loot is better people don't mind a trade off but unless the loot is worth it you may as well just leave it alone.

    I don't think ANYONE expected this rework of t-mapping to end up with LESS loot in the chest. (I do not mean loot as in the armor/weaps) but all the other stuff that was pretty much expected and made the t'hunting WORTH doing. Right now the thing that made Thunting a stand alone activity was the stuff you can't get anywhere else, mana orbs, forged pardons (already partly nerfed by vvv), creeping vines, tasty treats, the pet spawns, then those nice to get items (that may be got elsewhere but were originally added to tmaps to boost the flagging loot way back when and did that to make them worth doing) essences, recipes, sots, alacrity scrolls,  tmaps, mibs, runed sashes, mini artis, hence the name 'treasure'.  All that stuff was added to IMPROVE t-mapping way back and now it is being taken away or dropped to such a level it is 'rare' as opposed to 1 in 3 or better odds.

    Current Ingenious level tmaps gurantee between 10-20 artifact level items (lesser/greater/major/legend)  and around 48-60 magic level items (lesser/greater/major).  I doubt anyone would have complained if the magic items had been reduced to say 20 rather than 48-60.  That would of just allowed quicker sorting for those in the cc.  

    Now you say the drop for alacrity and pinks will be boosted from whatever it was you guys turned it down to, in the 15 odd chests I tested there were NONE so any boost is better than that.  But what happens to the other stuff...   forged pardons? Mana orbs? regs? essences? recipes? mibs? creeping vines, tasty treats etc

    In existing ingenious chests you are guaranteed at least 30k gold, around 50 of each reg pile spawned, 18 gems,  a mini arti and 6 essences. Then on nearly every other you get at least 1 to 4 of the 'other' things.  (recipe, mana orb, pardon, sash, sots, alacrity scrolls, tasty treat, mib etc), that is the reason it is called  treasure chest.  Not counting the artifact and magic 'items' of which there are currently about 80.

    If I just wanted  gold, gems with the odd item tossed in may as well just go kill mobs.  Even if you up it from the 6-10 items you currently seem to be putting in to double that.  It is still more than 80% LESS than what is currently there.. Treasure hunting has always been a whole process, specific templates put together JUST to do t-mapping, so yes there is an expectation that you get better loot for the skill and effort required to do them.

    I guess I shall wait to see the loot on the 'new' go at it, before worrying about it more, but unless it is MORE than what we currently get in an indigenous chest then it means the whole thing has been bashed over the head with a nerf bat and worse as you have now added a whole new skill and more mucking about with remove trap and trap guardians for less payoff so in effect have destroyed most of the motivation to tmap in the first place, especially for those who did do it as a group activity. 

    I am not sure why you just don't leave existing arti level items as is 10-20, drop the 48-60 magic items to around 20, leave all the OTHER loot that is already existing alone at the same spawn rate as is, and just add the new bags, and other 'new' stuff hourglass etc as the trade off for adding that extra skill. 

    One good thing is the puzzles are gone, they were just seriously hopeless grind and took no skill other than good guesses and just added a whole other level of time to the process.

    Sorry to be so negative but right now I am still concerned that we end up with less than what we currently get now for an added skill and more mucking about.  Gold and gems can be got off nearly EVERY mob in the game. That seems to be the ONLY increase to tmap chests which is disappointing.


    Cheers MissE

    For more info about Angelwood Warehouse Events go to the A.W.E Forum
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,041
    edited May 2019
    Faeryl said:
    Margrette said:
    @ Kyronix, the news from today says, "If the player moves more than 16 tiles away from the chest or is killed during the disarming process, the process must be restarted."

    Does this mean the chest vanishes and you have to dig it up again?  I'm having trouble envisioning disarming a trap as a "process."  Either an attempt works or it doesn't and then you have to wait out the skill use timer and try again.  But with the addition of the ancient chest guardians, I guess getting them killed off without getting your t-hunter killed at the same time or run off too far is going to be a process.  

    I sure wish remove trap didn't have a timer that interferes with using it again or using another skill.  No peace bombs for my t-hunter when the ancient chest guardian spawns and she has to plant her feet!  

    I guess I'll have to wait until next week to see how this works out.  I'm just curious if we have to dig up the chest again if removing the trap turns into a deadly situation.
    To me it comes across as just that if you fail,  you'll have to restart the timer on removing the trap again
    " To me it comes across as just that if you fail,  you'll have to restart the timer on removing the trap again "

    Which I understand it as a "restarting of the entire process" which will trigger, consequentially, a new "Wave" from a "new" Remove Trap use (process restart), of Ancient Chest Guardians and this, over and over and over, every single time that the Treasure Hunter might die or run farther then 16 tiles from the Chest....

    Subsequent Waves of Ancient Chest Guardians which will "stack" with the precedent ones, thus further extending the time to have to take care of them, and this, ON TOP of the "other" Guardians, the regular ones which spawn with the Chest and all this, having to pay attention that, in the meantime of having to deal with such extended and "build-up" spawns (Ancient Chest Guardians will ONLY be a time waster since they will carry no loot...), the Chest won't decay and go "poof" leaving the Treasure Hunter empty handed for all the work and time spent....

    Frankly, I preferred WAY more the Puzzles then this.....
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,041
    TimSt said:
    If the grubber spawns on every failed lock pick why would you need the lock picking and rt skills?  Just purposely fail to pick the lock with 0 skill and let the grubbers remove everything for you?
    Treasure Hunting with NO Lockpicking and NO Remove Trap ?

    Would that EVEN BE Treasure Hunting at all ?

    Why don't we then also do without Cartography then ?

    /sarcasm
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,041
    Pawain said:
    Wow that was a lot of Drama.

    They cant let those Mobs drop stuff because we would spawn them over and over.  More stuff to kill.  Thanks for Listening @ Kyronix  I can kill beacons for whips while you make the T Hunting spectacular.

    Happy Holiday


    Shuffling items inside a Treasure Chest has ALWAYS spawned extra Guardians.... how would it be any different to that ?

    YES to shuffling items inside of a Chest to spawn extra Guardians carrying loot but NO to Ancient Chest Guardians carrying loot because then players would spawn them over and over for extra loot ?

    Uhu ?

    Where is the difference if I may ask because I see none....
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,041
    edited May 2019
    "I do not understand the logic of it."
    I imagine the logic of the 16-tile rule is to pressure solo thunters into bringing others with them to defend against the spawn while they're working to remove the trap. Otherwise the player could just run away a couple screens, lure the spawn away and get back to work. I guess a key question is whether the thunter will be able to work on removing trap while remaining invisible or hidden. If so, they could still open the chest and then start on the additional spawn, just a little extra work.
    "If so, they could still open the chest and then start on the additional spawn, just a little extra work. "

    Not really.

    The 16 tiles requirement (otherwise the ENTIRE process has to start ALL over again...), means that the Treasure Hunter will have NO ROOM to fight the Spawned Ancient Chest Guardians one at a time. The T-Hunter will be within visual contact from any and ALL that have spawned and, therefore, will be attacked by them ALL without being able to single them out.

    Not all Templates are powerfull enough to be able to deal with multiple "strong" Creatures attacking them all at once.... these Ancient Chest Guardians will be the SAME type of the regular Chest Guardians....

    And not all Treasure Hunters want to use the same one template to do Treasure Hunting.

    Not to mention, if one gets to have spawned, as Ancient Chest Guardians, Creatures like the FROST Drakes or similar..... how many times players have HAD TO run fast away, farther then 16 tiles, to avoid getting killed by them ?

    And now, it is going to be MULTIPLE of them spawning as Ancient Chest Guardians (I understand depending on the Chest level and Remove Trap skill) and one should be forced to stay WITHIN 16 Tiles ?

    So, this particular mechanics now may have KILLED those Templates which were counting on tackling the Spawned Creatures ONE at a time since the 16 tiles rule will FORCE them to have to stay within sight and reach from ALL of the spawned Guardians at once.

    That is, having to fight them all at the same right time....

    This simple rule, the 16 tiles, is going, to my opinion, to kill "off the bat" a number of Treasure Hunters used and wanting to "pick" the spawned Guardians one at a time and not all of them together at once.

    Frankly, to my opinion at least, Puzzles were MUCH better, WAY much better then this....
  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,834
    OMG stop whinning until this goes to TC so we can see what this is all about.  I find it totally remarkable for some one to whine so damn much and IMHO doesn't even do the damn shit.  The puzzles did absolutely nothing but waste time and even destroyed items and they were ok but Guardians that protect the chest waste time and do not destroy loot are not ok.

  • poppspopps Posts: 4,041
    MissE said:
    My only comment is leave it alone completely unless the loot is fixed. 

    You just added another whole skill to the process, (I have already trained it so don't really care about it other than it is a waste of 100 points which has to now be stoned on and off the character each time I play it as it is used for nothing else). So I can live with it, just wonder what the purpose is? IF it is to justify better loot all good. I don't mind a trade off for extra skill even the extra guardian remove trap process if the loot is better.

     As for the proposed 16 tile 'guardian trap' spawn. If you have an ancient frost dragon/cold drake spawn tied 16 tiles to the chest you often need to move more than 16 tiles in the battle especially due to the cold dmg they give off and with the ai those things have they chase you so to heal you may need to get off screen. You are not luring it away just keeping it off you to heal yourself or pet.  Also what happens when the ancient wyrm, frost dragon, balron, greater dragon decides to take off especially when it gets super low on hit points, all those mobs fly away to escape?  We could have an endless loop of the remove trap resetting each time they take off.  This will need to be addressed, so unless you tie the spawn to stay within 16 tiles you have another issue. Why should this mob NOT have loot? What is the purpose of that, it seems to be mean for being mean sake? 

    As said above, if the loot is better people don't mind a trade off but unless the loot is worth it you may as well just leave it alone.

    I don't think ANYONE expected this rework of t-mapping to end up with LESS loot in the chest. (I do not mean loot as in the armor/weaps) but all the other stuff that was pretty much expected and made the t'hunting WORTH doing. Right now the thing that made Thunting a stand alone activity was the stuff you can't get anywhere else, mana orbs, forged pardons (already partly nerfed by vvv), creeping vines, tasty treats, the pet spawns, then those nice to get items (that may be got elsewhere but were originally added to tmaps to boost the flagging loot way back when and did that to make them worth doing) essences, recipes, sots, alacrity scrolls,  tmaps, mibs, runed sashes, mini artis, hence the name 'treasure'.  All that stuff was added to IMPROVE t-mapping way back and now it is being taken away or dropped to such a level it is 'rare' as opposed to 1 in 3 or better odds.

    Current Ingenious level tmaps gurantee between 10-20 artifact level items (lesser/greater/major/legend)  and around 48-60 magic level items (lesser/greater/major).  I doubt anyone would have complained if the magic items had been reduced to say 20 rather than 48-60.  That would of just allowed quicker sorting for those in the cc.  

    Now you say the drop for alacrity and pinks will be boosted from whatever it was you guys turned it down to, in the 15 odd chests I tested there were NONE so any boost is better than that.  But what happens to the other stuff...   forged pardons? Mana orbs? regs? essences? recipes? mibs? creeping vines, tasty treats etc

    In existing ingenious chests you are guaranteed at least 30k gold, around 50 of each reg pile spawned, 18 gems,  a mini arti and 6 essences. Then on nearly every other you get at least 1 to 4 of the 'other' things.  (recipe, mana orb, pardon, sash, sots, alacrity scrolls, tasty treat, mib etc), that is the reason it is called  treasure chest.  Not counting the artifact and magic 'items' of which there are currently about 80.

    If I just wanted  gold, gems with the odd item tossed in may as well just go kill mobs.  Even if you up it from the 6-10 items you currently seem to be putting in to double that.  It is still more than 80% LESS than what is currently there.. Treasure hunting has always been a whole process, specific templates put together JUST to do t-mapping, so yes there is an expectation that you get better loot for the skill and effort required to do them.

    I guess I shall wait to see the loot on the 'new' go at it, before worrying about it more, but unless it is MORE than what we currently get in an indigenous chest then it means the whole thing has been bashed over the head with a nerf bat and worse as you have now added a whole new skill and more mucking about with remove trap and trap guardians for less payoff so in effect have destroyed most of the motivation to tmap in the first place, especially for those who did do it as a group activity. 

    I am not sure why you just don't leave existing arti level items as is 10-20, drop the 48-60 magic items to around 20, leave all the OTHER loot that is already existing alone at the same spawn rate as is, and just add the new bags, and other 'new' stuff hourglass etc as the trade off for adding that extra skill. 

    One good thing is the puzzles are gone, they were just seriously hopeless grind and took no skill other than good guesses and just added a whole other level of time to the process.

    Sorry to be so negative but right now I am still concerned that we end up with less than what we currently get now for an added skill and more mucking about.  Gold and gems can be got off nearly EVERY mob in the game. That seems to be the ONLY increase to tmap chests which is disappointing.


    "As said above, if the loot is better people don't mind a trade off but unless the loot is worth it you may as well just leave it alone. "

    That is why I suggested that there COULD have been another way to implement Puzzles without upsetting those who did not want them as I mentioned in this Post here https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/27017/#Comment_27017

    That is, to add a SECRET COMPARTMENT to Treasure Chests with high end stuff in it like Artifacts, Legendary items or large stocks of ML/Imbuable Resources or of rare Recipes/Powerscrolls....

    Such Secret Compartment would have required DETECT HIDDEN to be found as existing, and REMOVE TRAP to have access to it.

    This way, the Puzzle could have easily been added to the Removing of the Trap to such a Secret, hidden Compartment and, being ADDED content, complaints would have been far less since those who did not want to bother with Solving Puzzles (or adding Detect Hidden on top of Remove Trap to their Treasure Hunting Template) would have just left alone this added content and only interacted with the general Chest....

    This way, those players NOT wanting to deal with Puzzles would have just done the general Chest while those players instead WANTING to deal with Puzzles (and also accepting to add Detect Hidden to their Treasure Hunting Template on top of Cartography, Lockpicking and Remove Trap...) would have enjoyed the Secret, hidden Compartment special contents.....

    As you said, players do not mind a "trade off" and in this example, the secret compartment loot would have been the trade off for having to deal with Puzzles, Detect Hidden and Remote Trap.

    The regular Chest itself would have been as before, what we have now on Production Shards.

    Players could have not complained, with such a change.
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,041
    Bilbo said:
    OMG stop whinning until this goes to TC so we can see what this is all about.  I find it totally remarkable for some one to whine so damn much and IMHO doesn't even do the damn shit.  The puzzles did absolutely nothing but waste time and even destroyed items and they were ok but Guardians that protect the chest waste time and do not destroy loot are not ok.

    When doing Puzzles, the Treasure Hunter could have stayed HIDDEN working on solving the Puzzle without being bothered by anything.

    With the Ancient Chest Guardians, instead, the Treasure Hunter not only WILL BE bothered while trying to remove the trap, but will ALSO have to stay alive AND pay attention NOT TO run farther as 16 tiles from the Chest because, otherwise, the ENTIRE process would have to start ALL OVER again with MORE (on top of those that had previously spawned...) Ancient Chest Guardians...

    As other have already pointed out, Creatures like the FROST Drake often FORCE the Treasure Hunter to have to run away, farther then the 16 Tiles... and now MULTIPLE of these might spawn as Ancient Chest Guardians....

    All of this will cause loss of time to many Treasure Hunters and their Chest will go "poof" eventually... time wasted and work done all for nothing... not even from the Ancient Chest Guardians who will yield NO LOOT.....

    As I said, Puzzles were WAY better then this, to my opinion....
  • FaerylFaeryl Posts: 273
    Good grief, Popps. These new guardians likely won't be much, if any different to the monsters that currently spawn as guardians. Up to level 3 they should be fairly easy for a solo treasure hunter to dispatch. And I think you're forgetting that the devs are trying to spin levels 4-5 as group maps. Hence, you know... there would logically be other people there to help kill the ancient guardian spawns and protect the treasure hunter. If a player wants to solo those maps, they'll have to work on a template that'll allow them to stand up to the higher end monsters.

    And honestly...? Can we please stop beating a horse that hasn't even made it out of the gate yet? You're arguing based on speculation and your interpretation of how things will work. Wait until it's actually on test and, you know, go test it for yourself.
  • MargretteMargrette Posts: 549
    @Popps, have you decided yet whether or not you will be training Remove Trap skill on your treasure hunter and how high you plan to take it?
  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,834
    edited May 2019
    @Faeryl IMHO he doesn't even do any of this stuff and has never posted even one result of one chest that he has done but knows all about these puzzles or has even once offered his help to anyone who has done any of these puzzles that has a problem doing them.  No I have not done one puzzle because I hate them and also I am very slow on a keyboard do to physical disability and it hurts to try to do them fast.
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,041
    edited May 2019
    Margrette said:
    @ Popps, have you decided yet whether or not you will be training Remove Trap skill on your treasure hunter and how high you plan to take it?

    And I did it quite some time ago (I am a returning players since about a month...).

    On the Shard I mostly played, I was the first player, back then, to GM Cartography back in those days....

    People hired me for my 100.0 Cartography skills that noone had then, yet, to do the Maps requiring those skills which they found as loot back then....
  • Petra_FydePetra_Fyde Posts: 1,470
    @popps at this point we can only speculate, but here are my thoughts.
    When I dig a chest I cast a summoned reaper and invis before the chest comes up.  Many people do something similar, using a summoned earth elemental, or two, or a pet.
    Remove trap, at GM, does not reveal your character under the new format, so I intend to simply replace the summoned reaper and follow a similar sequence to remove the trap as I currently use to dig the chest. 

    The time required to remove a trap is shorter at GM, so it is entirely possible very few additional spawn will be created, or even none. While my summon engages the mob I will have time to remove myself a few tiles and invis. 

    At this stage, as everyone else, I'm only guessing. Let's just wait and see how it works before we panic please?
  • Minerva_FoxgloveMinerva_Foxglove Posts: 244
    I like this way to T-hunt. But it will be no more running from that bally that hates me. I am very sure I needed way more than 16 tiles... :#
This discussion has been closed.