Doom and the Dark Father’s spawn

I already posted about this last year, there is WAY to much side spawn and the dang rubber band on the DFs, we had one DF down to 8% (we had three) when the hour for the scheduled event was over and most of the players needed to leave.   Ever time we go to Doom with a PAS Party (Guide event) of ten players, we are facing three or more DFs.  Now we like doing Doom, well we did before this spawning of named liches with god knows everything else.  Can we please dial back on the spawning.  There is far to much of it!!!
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  • Maybe the wrong forum for this post. But I agree with it.
  • DrakelordDrakelord Posts: 1,743
    Maybe the wrong forum for this post. But I agree with it.
    Ya, I had no idea where to post it here.
    Remove Trap = Bad News
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  • EM XanthusEM Xanthus Posts: 73Event Moderator
    Maybe try general Discussion or bug report section? Also, you could bring this up at the next Dev Meet and Greet.
  • MariahMariah Posts: 3,021Moderator
    since all shards are affected, I think general discussions for now.
  • PapaSmurfPapaSmurf Posts: 112
    You’re doing it wrong, I can solo a DF and even if there is 3 of us all the spawn makes it easier (being a sampire) 

    It doesn’t need changed. Just change your gameplay

  • SmootSmoot Posts: 393
    Sampire, use double axe with double strike.
    make sure to get honor in.  it can be soloed without honor, but takes longer.
    Onslaught mastery is a big help, as its a nice damage boost.
    Use Whirlwind, and evasion when the spawn pops.

    It can be done on other templates, but remember Dark father is immune to AI, so double - strike weapon is best, and whirlwind is best for managing spawn.  other methods will work, but will be slower and less effective.
  • DrowyDrowy Posts: 131
    I dont lke being forced to use a certain template to do an encounter. Sampire is fine for DF, but every other template may get into trouble. I did Doom events with larger groups and it was always pure chaos. I can handle the challenge, but when people die over and over they lose interest in doom. Not everyone has a sampire or wants to play one. And there are newer people that arent equipped that good or max skilled, but still would like to go there. Just disable the rubber banding and let groups fight a single DF with his spawn away from the other DFs, but dont let him pass the entrance to the hidden room.
    And please disable the invulnerability of the Flesh Render.
  • FaerylFaeryl Posts: 273
    Personally, I have absolutely no desire to ever use a sampire. People shouldn't need to "change their gameplay", the dark fathers should be able to be handled by a group, and currently the rubber banding and insane amount of spawn makes them a nightmare.
  • The_Higgs_1The_Higgs_1 Posts: 420

    I don't care much for the invulnerability of the fleshrender either, that needs to go, it just wastes time that people don't have to play with as is.

    The Darkfather also doesn't need the short leash either, there is no reason from someone to have to fight within range of multiple DF's.  The spawn rate I think is ok when your only fighting one DF at a time,  I say make the leash range bigger to allow people to drag one out and kill before fighting another.

  • DrakelordDrakelord Posts: 1,743
    Maybe try general Discussion or bug report section? Also, you could bring this up at the next Dev Meet and Greet.
    I did that once already, but I will do it again (Dev M&G)
    Remove Trap = Bad News
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  • DrakelordDrakelord Posts: 1,743
    PapaSmurf said:
    You’re doing it wrong, I can solo a DF and even if there is 3 of us all the spawn makes it easier (being a sampire) 

    It doesn’t need changed. Just change your gameplay
    Ok you do not get it, this is a GUILD event, 10 people, warriors/archers, tamers/mages/bards, and pets we there to fight the evil Dark Fathers, and win, not get our butts handed to us on silver platters, now when you are fighting Solo I can see it would be far easier than with umpteen people and pets there.  Also, I do not enjoy fighting with swords, I have played an Archer/mage/bard/tamer far to long to change my style so No sampire for me. 

    However, I do thank you for your input.

    As I was saying we had one DF down to 8% after an hour, then it all fell apart as most of us had to leave.   Now before this change in Doom [PAS] used to roll in across the beach charge the DFs and even with the spawn it had back then were able to beat them down run the rooms and attack the DFs once more.   Well within the hour that was scheduled.  Today that is impossible.  Since the Revamping of Doom [PAS] has yet to finish that event.  It is getting to the point now that when Doom is schedule newer members avoided logging in.

    Now I am not asking they change the rooms or the DFs, JUST Dial back on the Dang spawning of undead and others.  Give us back the NORMAL spawn from before.
    Remove Trap = Bad News
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  • DrakelordDrakelord Posts: 1,743
    You know we went to the lowest level of Shame last night, another Dungeon that was revamped.  At least there we able to fight and win.  15 people with pets and summons (two parties)  When asked why so many showed up, the answer was "It's not Doom".
    Remove Trap = Bad News
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  • Arroth_ThaielArroth_Thaiel Posts: 1,033
    Well, the dungeons name is "Doom".
    -Arroth
  • PapaSmurfPapaSmurf Posts: 112
    *Looks frantically for the easy switch*

    Please don’t be upset when you can’t kill a few dark fathers, if it was easy everyone would be doing it  :p

  • DrakelordDrakelord Posts: 1,743
    Remove Trap = Bad News
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  • DrakelordDrakelord Posts: 1,743
    PapaSmurf said:
    *Looks frantically for the easy switch*

    Please don’t be upset when you can’t kill a few dark fathers, if it was easy everyone would be doing it  :p
    I am not upset about the DFs, my main concerns are the spawn.  Far to much and they need to dial it back
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  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,228
    Looks like I am stuck in a box. 

    If no Sampires:
    Find the sweet spot where the DF will not rubberband back. Concentrate on 1 DF.  Tell the others to stop running to the beach everytime something chases them.  Put pets and archers on the DF as much as they can (pets doing area damage will change targets often, keep them on DF).  Everyone else kill spawn with spells. Invis and heal each other as needed.  Bards can help.

    It does take a while and there are many deaths.  It is not much fun without a sampire.


    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • FaerylFaeryl Posts: 273
    PapaSmurf said:
    *Looks frantically for the easy switch*

    Please don’t be upset when you can’t kill a few dark fathers, if it was easy everyone would be doing it  :p
    Asking for the spawn to be dialed back isn't pushing the easy button. It's asking the devs to consider making a reasonable change to the dark father spawn to make it more bearable for those of us who don't want to play with the sampire easy button.
  • SmootSmoot Posts: 393
    Drowy said:
    I dont lke being forced to use a certain template to do an encounter. Sampire is fine for DF, but every other template may get into trouble. I did Doom events with larger groups and it was always pure chaos. I can handle the challenge, but when people die over and over they lose interest in doom. Not everyone has a sampire or wants to play one. And there are newer people that arent equipped that good or max skilled, but still would like to go there. Just disable the rubber banding and let groups fight a single DF with his spawn away from the other DFs, but dont let him pass the entrance to the hidden room.
    And please disable the invulnerability of the Flesh Render.
    oldschool cross healing then.   2 or more dexters crosshealing has been how to beat doom since the day it came out.
  • SmootSmoot Posts: 393
    Faeryl said:
    PapaSmurf said:
    *Looks frantically for the easy switch*

    Please don’t be upset when you can’t kill a few dark fathers, if it was easy everyone would be doing it  :p
    Asking for the spawn to be dialed back isn't pushing the easy button. It's asking the devs to consider making a reasonable change to the dark father spawn to make it more bearable for those of us who don't want to play with the sampire easy button.
    The thing is gear and templates have come a long way.  If people were in just an imbued suit, with 720 skill points, i would agree with you.

    but we've had major power creep in the past 3 years, which was around the time doom was revamped.

    I think the difficulty is right around where it should be considering the massive power upgrades given in the forms of gear, and the pet upgrade.

    It should be difficult, it was nearly impossible before if you werent geared well or with a group.  Im talking like 10 years ago.  It was very common for spawn to over-run the area if it wasnt hanled properly.  same complaints then as now, but people managed.

    The thing i like about challenging encounters is that it does give a use to these legendaries.  It gives an incentive to make that 800 skill point character with, upgrade your gear, use the masteries, and adapt playstyle.


  • KhyroKhyro Posts: 230
    Pawain said:
    Looks like I am stuck in a box. 

    If no Sampires:
    Find the sweet spot where the DF will not rubberband back. Concentrate on 1 DF.  Tell the others to stop running to the beach everytime something chases them.  Put pets and archers on the DF as much as they can (pets doing area damage will change targets often, keep them on DF).  Everyone else kill spawn with spells. Invis and heal each other as needed.  Bards can help.

    It does take a while and there are many deaths.  It is not much fun without a sampire.


    This is the best answer. There is indeed a "Sweet spot" where you can fight a DF without him rubberbanding back to center. DF's also have paragon AI, so anyone that RUNS from a spawn will just create more chaos, as now the DF will be switching targets and throw everyone off kilter.

    People need to learn to invis aggro off themselves, and/or trust a guildmate to do it. If you are running as a Guild/Alliance event, you should coordinate roles and have someone sit in the back and spot heal and invis. A little coordination can go a long way.

    Pick a front-liner to tank the DF and make sure they keep it in place. They need to have trust in their group to keep them healed. A tank that gets scared and runs at low health is going to get everyone killed. A sampire is great for this, but a paladin or pet will work too.

    Everyone *EXCEPT* the tank needs to immediately pull off DF and kill the spawns whenever they are up. If the tank has WW, they should use that, but they should not chase after the spawns. Pets are good for this, or mages with undead/elemental slayers. I find most people just ignore the spawn and expect someone else to do it, then it just kills everyone.

    If the DF does rubberband back to center, just wait for it. Tamers need to be on the spot with pets to call them back so they don't aggro the other DF's. If the one you were fighting doesn't come back for some reason, have 1 person (preferably the tank), try to pull it again.

    Assign roles, have trust, understand the mechanics. 

    Oh also... just give every damn archer your bring a pair of stone boots so they can't move... so many deaths in doom runs caused by archers running at the first sight of something coming their way.
    https://www.uo-cah.com
    Home of the Pet Intensity Calculator, Pet Planner, Trainable Animal Bestiary, and other Tools, Guides, and Information. 

  • PinkertonPinkerton Posts: 105
    I just want to add support to the OP.  As a returning player Doom was one of the things I was excited to try again, and it is not fun.   Way back in the day, doing Doom in the months after it was introduced, the DF was not as hard as it is now.  The encounter is poorly designed, ESPECIALLY if it is easier for ONE person to do it than it is for ten people 5 w/ pets.  Incentivizing solo play in endgame MMO content is really, really dumb.
  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,834
    {SARCASM}Didn't you all know that UO is no longer a MMO but a SSO{end SARCASM}
  • Agree. My guild that isnt a drilled army but do well in all other places,  used to have alot of fun there and had no prob to let less experiened players come with us. Now we dont go for many months even if we wished to.
  • KhyroKhyro Posts: 230
    Honestly, Doom isn't as hard as you guys are making it out to be. Is it one of the more technical encounters in the game? Sure, but that's not saying much, as just about every other encounter has no real strategy to it.

    Doom is easier with 1 person vs 10 for several reason. First, Doom scales with the amount of people in the area. 10 people are more likely to get 2-3+ dark fathers, wheras a solo person should only get 1. Second, when you go to Doom solo, you have full control of the encounter and rely only on yourself. You know what you are doing and what to expect. If you go with 10 people (especially uncoordinated people), it can create chaos fast. People are unpredictable, or choose not to understand the encounter.

    You don't need to be a super coordinated "drilled army" that studies the encounter for hours, and watches videos on strategy, etc. All you need is a little knowledge of the encounter and to learn to play as a GROUP. You say the content in the game isn't an MMO anymore and people are better off playing solo; however, that's exactly how people end up playing in a group environment anyways. They don't heal/invis each other, they just care about themselves not dying and run away. Play as a group if you go as a group.

    Doom is straighforward:

    1. Do not run from aggro
    2. Do not run from aggro
    3. If you need to re-position, WALK, don't run.
    4. Mages need to invis anyone who gets spawn aggro, and the tanks need to target it (but not run to it) so they get aggro. Then everyone just needs to focus the spawn down and then go back to DF.
    5. Do not run from aggro!  If someone decides to run from aggro, DO NOT CHASE THEM. They are on their own now. Try to walk out of their way, but stay focused on the objective. Once everyone starts running around because 1 person ran, the run becomes chaos.

    Archer's are notorious for wiping doom runs (see my previous post), because archer's are conditioned to try and kite what they are fighting. Once an archer starts to run, you can guarantee someone will die, whether it's the archer, or someone else they ran past. Again, this is the solo-play mentality, which needs to go out the door at Doom. Play as a group and you will succeed.

    You can bring new and inexperienced players to Doom, just explain the encounter to them first. In fact, they would be the perfect people to stay in the back lines healing and invis people as they see how the encounter is done.
    https://www.uo-cah.com
    Home of the Pet Intensity Calculator, Pet Planner, Trainable Animal Bestiary, and other Tools, Guides, and Information. 

  • ThalonThalon Posts: 61
    edited March 2018
    sdfdsd
    Pinkerton said:
    I just want to add support to the OP.  As a returning player Doom was one of the things I was excited to try again, and it is not fun.   Way back in the day, doing Doom in the months after it was introduced, the DF was not as hard as it is now.  The encounter is poorly designed, ESPECIALLY if it is easier for ONE person to do it than it is for ten people 5 w/ pets.  Incentivizing solo play in endgame MMO content is really, really dumb.
    I am glad Doom is more difficult than it use to be. When Doom was originally designed there was no Samurai/Bushido Skill. Mysticism and Trained Pets are also options not available at the original debut. Playing in Doom in Ultima Online should be an accomplishment to perform well; please continue to update...Keep it challenging!  

    Smoot said:

    oldschool cross healing then.   2 or more dexters crosshealing has been how to beat doom since the day it came out.
    Bingo!  Teamwork is something the Sampire's emergence really took out of Ultima Online. No need for a healer if you can just spam whirlwind and heal yourself (Life Leech was a lot less reiiable due to mechanics too). Sometimes multiple Guilds would be running at the same time and we would still get pushed back to the Ferry by the DF spawn. That is the type of gameplay I really miss.

    On guild meeting nights before Bushido was in-game when we hit Doom I brought my Mage-Healer. Spam Great Heal and Arch Cure while applying band-aids to any unlucky ghosts was my job. Used any spare mana for summons and try to help with the lower spawn.  I suppose these days Mysticism would be the way to go with Cleansing Wind, but a dedicated healer in UO these days would probably be regarded as "dead-weight".

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  • Faeryl said:
    Personally, I have absolutely no desire to ever use a sampire. People shouldn't need to "change their gameplay", the dark fathers should be able to be handled by a group, and currently the rubber banding and insane amount of spawn makes them a nightmare.
    I've played a sampire for years and it's my top 2 favorite character to play. But I agree with this statement. Doom shouldn't be relegated to sampires with high end gear only.
  • ThalonThalon Posts: 61

    I've played a sampire for years and it's my top 2 favorite character to play. But I agree with this statement. Doom shouldn't be relegated to sampires with high end gear only.

    Sampires may work "best" but they are not the only option.
    Smoot said:
    oldschool cross healing then.   2 or more dexters crosshealing has been how to beat doom since the day it came out.
    So the question is, IF you get players to cooperate would this still work? Most players would rather go easy-street/do-it-all-by-yourself though which means Sampire. Would take a good guild to find out.
    Thalon, Merchant Sailor of Pacific for fine Tools, Clothing, and Potions!
    Blacksmithing, Carpentry and Inscription services offered through afilliated subcontractors.
    Exotic beasts available with proper authorization from the Crown.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,228
    Khyro said:
    Honestly, Doom isn't as hard as you guys are making it out to be. Is it one of the more technical encounters in the game? Sure, but that's not saying much, as just about every other encounter has no real strategy to it.

    Doom is easier with 1 person vs 10 for several reason. First, Doom scales with the amount of people in the area. 10 people are more likely to get 2-3+ dark fathers, wheras a solo person should only get 1. Second, when you go to Doom solo, you have full control of the encounter and rely only on yourself. You know what you are doing and what to expect. If you go with 10 people (especially uncoordinated people), it can create chaos fast. People are unpredictable, or choose not to understand the encounter.

    You don't need to be a super coordinated "drilled army" that studies the encounter for hours, and watches videos on strategy, etc. All you need is a little knowledge of the encounter and to learn to play as a GROUP. You say the content in the game isn't an MMO anymore and people are better off playing solo; however, that's exactly how people end up playing in a group environment anyways. They don't heal/invis each other, they just care about themselves not dying and run away. Play as a group if you go as a group.

    Doom is straighforward:

    1. Do not run from aggro
    2. Do not run from aggro
    3. If you need to re-position, WALK, don't run.
    4. Mages need to invis anyone who gets spawn aggro, and the tanks need to target it (but not run to it) so they get aggro. Then everyone just needs to focus the spawn down and then go back to DF.
    5. Do not run from aggro!  If someone decides to run from aggro, DO NOT CHASE THEM. They are on their own now. Try to walk out of their way, but stay focused on the objective. Once everyone starts running around because 1 person ran, the run becomes chaos.

    Archer's are notorious for wiping doom runs (see my previous post), because archer's are conditioned to try and kite what they are fighting. Once an archer starts to run, you can guarantee someone will die, whether it's the archer, or someone else they ran past. Again, this is the solo-play mentality, which needs to go out the door at Doom. Play as a group and you will succeed.

    You can bring new and inexperienced players to Doom, just explain the encounter to them first. In fact, they would be the perfect people to stay in the back lines healing and invis people as they see how the encounter is done.
    Nice post!  That's why I use my archer bard.  Peace instead of run.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • ZekeTerraZekeTerra Posts: 313
    edited March 2018
    Our guild did it a few weeks ago.  8 of us all on tamers and talking in Ventrillo.  We had 3 DF's at the same time and while it was hairy and several died we were able to finish it off, do a round of rooms and knock out 2 DFs.  The issue that can come up is  where there are others there that are not part of your group so it becomes chaotic.  It was difficult with 3 DF's up but we all agreed it was fun and we had a good time.  Before the change we used to go there monthly on several different templates and completely devastated it, doing 3 complete rounds in our hour hunt window, but it was boring and tedious after a few rounds.  The only real issue I have is Room 2 where they keep going yellow and you can't attack them.  Time consuming and boring, but doable, just poor design in my OP.  Communication and teamwork is key in there now.
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