2 things that should be considered for balance updates in the near future
These in my mind are 2 really important issue's that should be addressed in the near future to promote balanced / competitive gameplay in UO going forward.
1. The player skill cap should go up by 80 points to 800.And skill increase items should allow players to exceed the new skill cap by a maximum of 20 points for a total of 820 skill points. The way it is now gives the rich a huge advantage over any potentially new or returning player that cannot afford to optimize their suits the same way.
2. Trade Deals need to be made accessible to murderers. If you insist on 'punishing' them for being red then put a trade deal stone in the middle of each felucca dungeon and make it so if you use the felucca stones for a trade deal every time you die you get a 10 minute statloss while the trade deal is active.
This game really needs to start providing a competitive environment for it's players. There is no reason why being rich should get you close to 100 extra skill points to use over any other player simply because they can afford it and someone else cannot.
1. The player skill cap should go up by 80 points to 800.And skill increase items should allow players to exceed the new skill cap by a maximum of 20 points for a total of 820 skill points. The way it is now gives the rich a huge advantage over any potentially new or returning player that cannot afford to optimize their suits the same way.
2. Trade Deals need to be made accessible to murderers. If you insist on 'punishing' them for being red then put a trade deal stone in the middle of each felucca dungeon and make it so if you use the felucca stones for a trade deal every time you die you get a 10 minute statloss while the trade deal is active.
This game really needs to start providing a competitive environment for it's players. There is no reason why being rich should get you close to 100 extra skill points to use over any other player simply because they can afford it and someone else cannot.
Comments
As far as the trade deals for reds, one of my favorite quotes from a former dev (Wilki) is,
"Being red doesn’t mean you’re on the “red team”. It means that you’re a murderer, an outcast from society, someone whose past deeds are so horrible that the good, law-abiding citizens of Britannia feel obligated to oppose you at every step."
That being said I do see where you are coming from, and this has come up at several meet & greets. We've talked about how to provide trade-deal-esque type bonuses for those who prefer a PvP centric playstyle as a result. If anything something like this would find itself in VvV as a means to encourage competition and participation, as well appeal to different styles of PvP.
As far as raising the skill cap, we addressed this when talking about the justification for adding skill masteries over "just" raising the skill cap to 800 or introducing 120+ power scrolls. You can check out the dev diary from 2015 here.
Point 1.
It's not just the Rich who have this advantage - EC players do also - they carry 2-3 suits and different skillpoint suits, ie. different sets of jewels to switch instantly when required.
I still don't believe your suggestion would help so much though.
Putting a hard skill cap in at 820, would hurt my PvM Rogue - he has 926 skill-points, all in fun rogue abilities, no combat ability at all.
His whole build has been about skill-points, LRC, and nothing else.
Point 2.
Most reds who rely on town buffs have gimped their characters or their suits, maybe they should learn not to do this.
As far as raising the skill cap, we addressed this when talking about the justification for adding skill masteries over "just" raising the skill cap to 800 or introducing 120+ power scrolls. You can check out the dev diary from 2015 here.
Taking into account subjective wish lists, most of the vets feel that PVP is pretty balanced atm. Except for the difference in speed compared to CC vs EC.
But the more that is talked about, the more the conversation may get pushed to a one-world-client-system.
Arthur: "Be quiet!"
Dennis: "You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!”
Monty Python & the Holy Grail
Because players already are playing with 800+ skill points they would be upset to go back down. 800 real / 820 modified is fair for everyone.
Good list. I'd also add why are there no pure mages also, as well as pure melee. I'd also ask why is dismount so dominant.
All they did with the PvP Parry/Archer changes, were nerf the long range dexxers, improve the short range dexxers, and weaken mages ability to defend themselves even more against the short range dexxers by nerfing parry - and turn everything into a dexxer/mage hybrid, or deathstrike poison dexxer or parry mage to attempt to survive that onslaught.
The character has optimised one set of properties, and sacrificed others, that's how the system works. It has done this legitimately. Usually with adding in skillpoints - other characters also sacrifice stuff in order to gain skillpoints.
You talk about the uber rich being able to get huge suits, or those spending RL money - the issue may not be them, it may be that the items are available in the first place, or that EC allows instant switching of multiple skillsuits to allow a dexxer to become a mage instantly, then back again. So I don't think fixing the caps is the answer, I think there are issues behind that causing it, which won't go away.
Regarding my entirely useless character, it is one of my favourites. A list of content for my useless character includes;
- Dungeon chests including Kotl City and Sunken Ararat hidden chests
- Stealing from monsters for special items
- Stealing from players
- VvV Sigils
- City stealing of Refinement washes, cures, scours, varnishes
- Dungeon stealables including Bedlam, Doom, Stygian Abyss, Tokuno and Wrong
- General snooping, spying and scouting in Felucca
- Collecting gold drops from Champ Spawns
- Khaldun Puzzle Chests
- Etc.
Just because it's a different playstyle, it isn't useless by a long way. Remove Trap, is one of the most fun skills ingame. My personal wishlist for this character would include, buffing chest loot, and fixing Remove Trap skill so it doesn't unhide on successes - also when looting you should not unhide.Is it because of an inability with the game to attract new players into the PVP base? I can understand why that would be frustrating. Personally, I've tried to get into PVP since August last year and its pretty rough. Initially it turned me off, but then I realized, if I want to get into THIS game's PVP, I'm just going to have to dedicate the time to learn the ropes. And that, in itself, is pretty exciting and fun; having to learn the system and compete. So currently, I'm gathering info and learning the templates. -shrug- If I went to WOW, if I went to any other 10+ year old game, I would experience similar issues.
On the other hand, arguments ask: why can't the new players learn the ropes and learn to gather a suit and weapons and come up to par with seasoned players (vets) rather than just hand power creep to young rookies?
If a person feels they cannot compete in the current PVP climate, have they addressed other issues? Some use third party programs to gain an advantage regular players do not. Get into PVP as a new person and this will frustrate you to no end.
Next, some players are so adept at their hand-eye-coordination and muscle memory with PVP, they are just simply good; because they have played 10+ years. Some players are intimately aware of the nuances of all current templates. In this era, you're basically playing with people who have lots of years of experience. So, I don't see how giving new players a huge boost of power in the form of limiting vets powers is going to make things more effective anyway. Vets have experience. It's just a fact. -shrug- It sounds like a handicap wants to be imposed. That's a poor idea I think. But let's be realistic here: vets, who love CC (classic client) already have a handicap imposed. CC is slower than EC (enhanced client), so players in EC have an advantage of running away and cutting corners that CC players do not. That is a current gripe from CC players. So, take that into consideration.
I don't find an issue with skill points on items.
Besides, those same skill points help you in PVM to be able to accomplish goals outside of PVP. Your suggestion would affect another group of players and that's an imbalance itself. You can't try to balance PVP and then take away the effectiveness of skill points from PVM players to solve your supposed dilemma.
Power creep is a loose term anyway. In this MMO, a lot of players like to solo. Given that many bosses were built around team-play and the fact the player base is smaller now, team-play is not really viable for all players. I'm glad there was some significant change to power to allow people to enjoy boss hunting/farming now without recruiting a team. Even if 4 players gather for something like Melisande, they do tear her apart pretty quickly. Exodus, one of the harder ones, can be handled with about 3-4 players these days. I remember the days when it took an army to take some things down and it was an EVENT. Does that mean power creep is a problem for 2+ groups of players? Maybe. But who are the majority of players playing in this era? I'll wager its solo play. However, if the player base grows and is solid, I'll also wager adjustments will be made.
Further, every era of UO has had complaints about what template dominates another and the change of Devs has had to solve that issue back and forth. If players who are well seasoned and know the ins-and-outs of pvp say that, atm, the game is balanced, one ought to give that idea a fair shake. You can follow the history of arguments at similar forums dedicated to UO through the player base.
In the end, its all interesting questions and concerns brought forth to keep the conversation going. So that's good.
Arthur: "Be quiet!"
Dennis: "You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!”
Monty Python & the Holy Grail
new or returning players already have enough obstacles to overcome to get on par with vet's like (knowledge of game mechanics, player skill, powerscrolls, equipment, 3rd party programs) putting any player at a 100 skill point disadvantage is not needed. The only reason anyone can argue against changing the total skill cap is because they want to remain overpowered compared to the rest of the competition. That's flawed game design but I am still open to being enlightened on why the game should not have proper balance. It's been probably the biggest reason for the decline of PvP since Age of Shadows that items have trumped player skill in PvP and right now you cannot argue that statement as players have literally 100 skill points more to use then the average player. It's no wonder PvP in this game is dead and will continue to be dead even after Endless Journey. Players cannot accept critical balance updates that are needed for the overall benefit of the game.
But go ahead and keep whining about the enhanced client instead of addressing the real issue which is in fact skill point increase items in this case. You seem to have a personal agenda against the Enhanced Client and will try and maneuver any topic into an argument against it. But at least the enhanced client is readily accessible to any player which skill point items are not.
It's a rogue, he plays like a rogue. I have fun playing the content I listed, and he is designed for it.
Why are you trying to dictate what makes a good, purposeful character or not? Define a character that has purpose in your eyes?
Remember, I am both a pvper and pvmer, so I see issues from both points of view.
I will keep whining about EC as it is the root cause of half of UO's inbalances - and directly even affects the issue you chose to raise here - amounts of skillpoints a character can use. Many PvPers I know directly, who use EC, use 2-3 suits, and swap out parts to instantly give themselves additional skills for whichever occasion arises they need it for. Completely relevant to the topic you chose to raise?
The other half, is Trammel, and because of it, the inability to deal with scripting, and cheating, which destroys the entire economy. They get everything for nothing, and far more in fact, than the risk taking facet of the game.
So ultimately, I'm trying to improve the entire game, not just a little portion.
You can just keep on whining about something irrelevant - Deal.
Maybe my solution for you, and all your new pvpers, is to use EC, where they can instantly use as many skills as they want for free, then you and all of them can be happy, and I can continue whining about the imbalance this creates. But it would fix your issue with skill-points, and make adjusting skill-caps unnecessary.
Please make the Grizzled Mare a 5 slot mount, it's incredibly rare and deserves it. Some of us have been waiting a long time for this simple addition.
As a pure PvP mage on classic client vs an army of enhanced client dexxers right now, it is the root cause of 90% of my game imbalances - I'm prepared to reduce that to 50% for the rest of you. Compromise, concessions, that's what I'm all about.
Speed differential, additional functionality, instantaneous gear switch abilities - I play an EC dexxer, so I know what I'm talking about, I can still hate it though.
2. About new or returning players, plus-skill-points are not a disadvantage. New players, given enough time, moxy, and ingenuity, can acquire these items. They are not unobtainable. Give a valid reason why you think those items are unobtainable, because saying that players have enought to worry about without having to farm or make their own gold is a flawed argument. MMO's are designed to acquire currency. Any RPG has this concept as a staple.
3. About players wanting to remain at the current level of power, I touched on this in my original post. Solo-players in PVM would be affected if you change the level of power. You're saying they need a nerf too? Give valid reasons. New players being overcome with too many game-mechanics is not a valid reason. Plenty of players have proven the game mechanics are able to be learned. Unless, you're looking for players to have quite an awfully easy time getting into game-play without much challenge.
If you have data that supports the concept that players find Ultima Online too hard to learn and therefore cannot play it, please provide it. Statistics would be great.
3. "but I am still open to being enlightened on why the game should not have proper balance.." I talked about this previously about in my post. You're not addressing it. Are you sure your open-minded?
4. "It's been probably the biggest reason for the decline of PvP since Age of Shadows that items have trumped player skill in PvP and right now you cannot argue that statement as players have literally 100 skill points more to use then the average player."
Oh, you're going to need to provide proof and examples to back up this claim. You've already been counter-argued on this by a Dev and several other posters. Atm, this is a poor claim and you lack proof.
"It's no wonder PvP in this game is dead and will continue to be dead even after Endless Journey. Players cannot accept critical balance updates that are needed for the overall benefit of the game."
Define dead and elaborate this claim. I see people PVPing on a regular basis and is an alluring reason, along with nostalgia, for people to return to the game and enjoy PVP. I know this because I read Gen chat daily. I hear statements about excitement for the game and the desire to return to PVP. (I know, the trash-talk is endless.) Forums have a history showing PVP is still very much alive in UO.
I have a speculation from the way you word your posts, you are probably looking to play UO in an era that has since passed. This is actually a trend with some game players. Many people seek out information from Dev's about a legacy option for UO. Devs have said that is not feasible for many reasons. You might do a search on it.
Thanks!
Arthur: "Be quiet!"
Dennis: "You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!”
Monty Python & the Holy Grail
In other words:
Please spent your money on another game with PvP content. We don't want you here and have no interest in giving all playstyles equal opportunities.
Do you guys want to earn money or teach people life lessons? Thank god the UO NPCs don't know of my life in GTA
One of the unique things about the Ultima franchise as a whole is the attempt to bring some type of morality into the game world. Richard Garriott worked a long time to design and implement a system that had consequences for behavior. A system where player actions had in-game reactions. These consequences or reactions were purposefully designed to include social reactions by the game world, not just a combat debuff for 10 sec.
Richard Garriott has spoken at length over many years about how many other games have no social fabric or meaning. A player could break into a house, loot from a dresser, or murder someone, and the game would have no long term meaningful reaction. He wanted something different for Ultima, something to not just play a quest, but explore how a player played a quest.
I'm glad some of this has made it into UO. It makes UO unlike "any other game". It would be interesting to see how the development team could expand on this theme and make even stronger, longer term game world reactions to player behavior. That might set UO even more apart from other games on the market.
Also those ideas you cite are from 20 years ago. Keep sticking to it, but it's 2018 and video games have changed. Judging by how little adoption this ideas of Gariott have found in modern games, I guess they were not very popular or thought through.
They could maybe expand on this idea by putting murderers into jail for 10 years. That will teach them.
Explorations of morality have taken place in oral histories, literature, plays, movies, music, television, and every other form of story telling humans have ever used. Why would video games be left out?
I would say some developers, especially those of large scale, complex games, have moved toward morality/social systems over the last 20 years, not away from them. Many more recent games have moral or social conditions as reactions to player behavior. NPC's in Fallout 3 can become hostile if you're caught stealing from their homes. Crackdown will send out squads of agents if you keep blowing up the city (for a limited time). Entire towns will turn against you in Red Dead Redemption (again for a limited time). Elite Dangerous has just introduced a massive overhaul of their crime and punishment system, including Notoriety (UO beat'em by about 20 years!). Star Citizen is spending literal millions to try and figure out how to make a game socially responsive to player behavior.
Garriott may have been the first to really try to implement morality, but once he opened that door, it opened a whole new world for storytelling in videogames. 'Might be a part of the reason why UO is still around and kicking in 2018 while so many of its competitors are gone.