2 things that should be considered for balance updates in the near future

JollyJade

Arroth_Thaiel said:

JollyJade said:

Yea, but again, this is trying to teach people life lessons in morality on a video game. Let's punish players for actually playing what the the game offers *duh*

Also those ideas you cite are from 20 years ago. Keep sticking to it, but it's 2018 and video games have changed. Judging by how little adoption this ideas of Gariott have found in modern games, I guess they were not very popular or thought through.

Explorations of morality have taken place in oral histories, literature, plays, movies, music, television, and every other form of story telling humans have ever used. Why would video games be left out?

I would say some developers, especially those of large scale, complex games, have moved toward morality/social systems over the last 20 years, not away from them. Many more recent games have moral or social conditions as reactions to player behavior. NPC's in Fallout 3 can become hostile if you're caught stealing from their homes. Crackdown will send out squads of agents if you keep blowing up the city (for a limited time). Entire towns will turn against you in Red Dead Redemption (again for a limited time). Elite Dangerous has just introduced a massive overhaul of their crime and punishment system, including Notoriety (UO beat'em by about 20 years!). Star Citizen is spending literal millions to try and figure out how to make a game socially responsive to player behavior.

Garriott may have been the first to really try to implement morality, but once he opened that door, it opened a whole new world for storytelling in videogames. 'Might be a part of the reason why UO is still around and kicking in 2018 while so many of its competitors are gone.  

Uhm, i feel we are getting a bit off the track with talking about movies, literature and so on.

Let's recap what the initial situation was: UO offers PvP. You play PvP. You get punished for doing so.

Are PvPers by definiton morally ambigious? Just for playing what the game offers? Calling them murderers is just a narrative to discredit them.

But well, we all know in what healthy state UO PvP is... not exactly "kicking".

JollyJade

Rock said:

JollyJade said:

Kyronix said:

As far as the trade deals for reds, one of my favorite quotes from a former dev (Wilki) is, 

"Being red doesn’t mean you’re on the “red team”. It means that you’re a murderer, an outcast from society, someone whose past deeds are so horrible that the good, law-abiding citizens of Britannia feel obligated to oppose you at every step."

In other words:

Please spent your money on another game with PvP content. We don't want you here and have no interest in giving all playstyles equal opportunities.

Do you guys want to earn money or teach people life lessons? Thank god the UO NPCs don't know of my life in GTA 

Jade, you do understand that UO is an MMORPG, right? RPG standing for "role playing game". You have the opportunity to be a murderer. Hurray! However, expect consequences.

And if you are not a murderer but only like to play PvP with your best friends? 

I hope you also understand that UO is a video game. You have the opportunity to punish people for just playing your game. Hurray! But expect consequences.

Mervyn

I think a lot of people think reds are bad people. Guilds need reds as the bad people troll by playing on blue characters who are not in VvV, they will attack the champ bosses only and not other players so never turn orange. 

You have no choice but to go red, either that or spend your whole life getting forged pardons

SwordofExcalibur

PureLife said:

SwordofExcalibur said:

1. But you are promoting the concept, whether you want to see it that way or not.  Also, I've already addressed this.  Did you catch that part?  Go back to my original post.  If you have a problem with skill points, counter my point with a valid reason.

You did not address anything.

2. About new or returning players, plus-skill-points are not a disadvantage.  New players, given enough time, moxy, and ingenuity, can acquire these items.  They are not unobtainable.  Give a valid reason why you think those items are unobtainable, because saying that players have enought to worry about without having to farm or make their own gold is a flawed argument.  MMO's are designed to acquire currency.  Any RPG has this concept as a staple.

Currency has nothing to do with game balance.

3. About players wanting to remain at the current level of power, I touched on this in my original post.  Solo-players in PVM would be affected if you change the level of power.  You're saying they need a nerf too?  Give valid reasons.  New players being overcome with too many game-mechanics is not a valid reason.  Plenty of players have proven the game mechanics are able to be learned.  Unless, you're looking for players to have quite an awfully easy time getting into game-play without much challenge. 

I never once proposed a nerf now your just spinning things to try and make your argument have any merit. I'd like to see one of these solo PvM templates that cannot survive with 820 skill points.

3. "but I am still open to being enlightened on why the game should not have proper balance.." I talked about this previously about in my post.  You're not addressing it.  Are you sure your open-minded?

Once again you never addressed anything.

4. "It's been probably the biggest reason for the decline of PvP since Age of Shadows that items have trumped player skill in PvP and right now you cannot argue that statement as players have literally 100 skill points more to use then the average player."

Oh, you're going to need to provide proof and examples to back up this claim.  You've already been counter-argued on this by a Dev and several other posters.  Atm, this is a poor claim and you lack proof.

Look at every single shard no one PvP's anymore outside of 50 people on Atlantic.

 "It's no wonder PvP in this game is dead and will continue to be dead even after Endless Journey. Players cannot accept critical balance updates that are needed for the overall benefit of the game."

Define dead and elaborate this claim.  I see people PVPing on a regular basis and is an alluring reason, along with nostalgia, for people to return to the game and enjoy PVP.  I know this because I read Gen chat daily.  I hear statements about excitement for the game and the desire to return to PVP.  (I know, the trash-talk is endless.)  Forums have a history showing PVP is still very much alive in UO.

No need to elaborate lol obviously you don't PvP.

I have a speculation from the way you word your posts, you are probably looking to play UO in an era that has since passed.  This is actually a trend with some game players.  Many people seek out information from Dev's about a legacy option for UO.  Devs have said that is not feasible for many reasons.  You might do a search on it.

Thanks!

And on this I am done responding to you. You are simply a troll trying to spin something your way. Not once I have I mentioned or even hinted towards playing 'an era that has passed' but thanks for trying to derail my topic with something that had no place in the conversation to try and spin something into your favor because you have no reasonably argument to support your claims.

That's unfortunate.  Your deflections are not answers or supports of your positions.  And your use of name-calling only supports the idea your not capable of effective arguing.

Well, good luck anyway.  May the record show you cannot defend your positions.  I'd be happy to revisit should you change your mind.  Take care.

Thalon

Kyronix said:

As far as the trade deals for reds, one of my favorite quotes from a former dev (Wilki) is, 

"Being red doesn’t mean you’re on the “red team”. It means that you’re a murderer, an outcast from society, someone whose past deeds are so horrible that the good, law-abiding citizens of Britannia feel obligated to oppose you at every step."

That being said I do see where you are coming from, and this has come up at several meet & greets.  We've talked about how to provide trade-deal-esque type bonuses for those who prefer a PvP centric playstyle as a result.  If anything something like this would find itself in VvV as a means to encourage competition and participation, as well appeal to different styles of PvP.

I am really glad to see the conceptualization of Reds in Ultima Online has not soften over the years. Being "Red" does not mean as much as it did before the world was split between Trammel and Felluca.

All things considered, being "Blue" is not much of a statement either and never was. Many Blue characters have been equiped with equipment and Powerscrolls gained through the player's Red characters. The two share a house in Felluca where tbey trade equipment, resources and stories, the Blue laughs just as heartily as the Red when he tells the tale about how he got the last batch of powescrolls off some poor sap on his first Champion spawn.

From a true roleplaying standpoint I would have loved to see such item upon being looted in Fellucca gain the title "Stained by blood of an Innocent" and any character using them turned perma-Red (or at least perma-Grey). The tainted would not apply to items looted from Red and Grey characters. Final suggestion: Taint can be removed but ONLY by the character it was looted from. I.E.  if the player wants to use ill-gotten loot on any character except his Red, he needs to track down the player he killed and ask nicely to be forgiven. Sound like a good roleplay opportunity?

Rock

Jade, you do understand that UO is an MMORPG, right? RPG standing for "role playing game". You have the opportunity to be a murderer. Hurray! However, expect consequences.

And if you are not a murderer but only like to play PvP with your best friends? 

I hope you also understand that UO is a video game. You have the opportunity to punish people for just playing your game. Hurray! But expect consequences.
- - - The quote included too much.  Deleting the excess screwed up formatting. ---
You make a good point about friend PvP.  One way it might be easily implemented is have the two parties Honor each other prior to fighting. There should be public notice of each Honor act so both parties (and onlookers too) know that this will be a consensual fight.

Yes, I know UO is a video game. But like any game, there are rules.

JollyJade

Rock said:

Jade, you do understand that UO is an MMORPG, right? RPG standing for "role playing game". You have the opportunity to be a murderer. Hurray! However, expect consequences.

And if you are not a murderer but only like to play PvP with your best friends? 

I hope you also understand that UO is a video game. You have the opportunity to punish people for just playing your game. Hurray! But expect consequences.

- - - The quote included too much.  Deleting the excess screwed up formatting. ---
You make a good point about friend PvP.  One way it might be easily implemented is have the two parties Honor each other prior to fighting. There should be public notice of each Honor act so both parties (and onlookers too) know that this will be a consensual fight.

Yes, I know UO is a video game. But like any game, there are rules.

--------------------

Or simply, and that's what the OP asks for, give reds access to trade deals.

No one asked to remove all differences between reds and blues. It was just about a town buff you can't get when your are red.

Some people dragged it on this meta-level away from the initial suggestion, but everyone reading the OP again should realize it's two very simple concerns he raises, no meta discussion about morality in gaming in general.

E: Quotation for me bugged as well. Maybe a mod can fix..

Butcher

The quote from Kyronix sums it all up very well I think. No benefits for reds if you ask me.

The_Higgs_1

What the difference between someone who murders all day in VvV and the Reds of old? Nothing except since theyre orange and cant get counted.  Even if they flag people who are blue and happen to go red, there is unlimited pardons to get to go back blue and pretend your not a murderer.   When in fact nothing has changed, murders still happen non stop, just no counts are given.  Bring back reds and restore the real UO, stop with this fake PC UO that's fake.

Ivenor

The_Higgs_1 said:

(...)

Bring back reds and restore the real UO, stop with this fake PC UO that's fake.

Reds have all Fel to play in & with. Not all the Players are in UO for the sake of systematical PvP killing sprees (Deco buffs, e.g.). It is disg... cutible enough to see what happens at big IDOCs, even in Tram (mass killing form abused Pets released in the Wild, etc.).
I.