Why a Rogue needs to use the Invisibility spell/potion rather then a Smoke Bomb ?

Comments

• Grimbeard Posts: 3,295

  November 6

  Stop no literally you have to stop when using a smoke bomb now I know getting revealed surrounded by monsters is terrifying but stop when using the bomb then move slowly (this is where never run toggle most needed)
• popps Posts: 4,345

  November 6

  Grimbeard said:

  Stop no literally you have to stop when using a smoke bomb now I know getting revealed surrounded by monsters is terrifying but stop when using the bomb then move slowly (this is where never run toggle most needed)

  Not sure I understand what you say...

  
  

  I do not move when using a smoke bomb, I stay still and only after having gone invisible I start moving... the problem is not staing still, the problem is the timer of 10 seconds after using a skill (other then a combat skill,mind you...) like for example stealing or detect hidden...

  
  

  It is not possible to wait 10 seconds being targeted by the surrounding spawn before being able to use the smoke bomb... that's why the invisibility spell or an invisibility potion works better...

  
  

  But this should not be, to my opinion, a Rogue should be able to use a smoke bomb... yet, in order for this to be possible, the 10 seconds timer should go away like it is for any combat skill whereas they can use a smoke bomb even a split second after having used the combat skill...

  
  
• Grimbeard Posts: 3,295

  November 6

  You're a rogue not a racer? It's meant to be slow 
  
• popps Posts: 4,345

  November 6 edited November 6

  Grimbeard said:

  You're a rogue not a racer? It's meant to be slow 
  

  Well... if the surrounding spawn was also slow and took 10 seconds before targeting the visible Rogue then there would be no problem to be a slow Rogue and wait for the smoke bomb 10 seconds timer to lapse before being able to get invisible... unfortnately, the surrounding spawn does not care about the Rogue's "slowessness" and, as soon as the Rogue becomes visible, they start, all of them, mind you, to target the Rogue hitting him/her, casting spells on him/her, pounding the Rogue as if there was no tomorrow...

  
  

  I am afraid that, if there is too much surrounding spawn, the Rogue cannot afford before getting invisible... it is necessary to get invisible right away... hence, no smoke bombs but use the invisibility spell (with Protection, mind you) or using an invisibility potion...

  
  

  But this, especially for a Rogue, to my opinion is dead wrong and it should not be. It makes way more sense, at least to me, that a Rogue used a smoke bomb rather then the invisibility spell or an invisibility potion...

  
  

  Since combat skills are made an exception for the smoke bomb timer and, infact, the ninja can use a smoke bomb while in combat, why not make this exception also for the Rogue using the Stealing and the Detect Hidden skills or, better even, just get rid of the smoke bomb 10 seconds timer althougether ?

  
  
• Grimbeard Posts: 3,295

  November 6

  To clarify if you are stopping and using bomb there is zero need to cast a spell 
• popps Posts: 4,345

  November 6

  Grimbeard said:

  To clarify if you are stopping and using bomb there is zero need to cast a spell 

  Try performing a steal or use the Detect Hidden skill and then, use a smoke bomb right way.

  
  

  You will get the following message : "You must wait a few seconds before you can use that item".

  
  

  That item being, the smoke bomb... and guess why ? Because of the 10 seconds delay timer after having used the Stealing or Detect Hidden skill...

  
  

  As we know, using the Stealing skill makes the thief visible, right ? So, hiding back, right away, especially in a heavy spawm area, becomes fundamental... unfortunately, the 10 seconds smoke bomb timer makes it not possible before they lapse... hence, the Rogue resorts to using the Insibility spell/potion (which can be used right away, without having to wait 10 seconds...) rather then the smoke bomb... and I see this, expecially for a Rogue template, as dead wrong... to my opinion, it should be way more natural for a Rogue to use a smoke bomb rather then the invisibility spell or potion.

  
  
• Grimbeard Posts: 3,295

  November 6

  Unfortunately your inability to play correctly doesn't merit changes to something that's working 
• Petra_Fyde Posts: 1,545

  November 6

  The thing is, and many will disagree with me on this. But smoke bombs aren't a rogue's resource, they're a ninja resource. I find invis spell much more useful because you can keep casting it when revealed repeatedly and still manage to get away without dying. I've cast it as many as 3 times before I managed to stay hidden and stealth away.
• Rocko Posts: 254

  November 6

  Petra_Fyde said:

  The thing is, and many will disagree with me on this. But smoke bombs aren't a rogue's resource, they're a ninja resource. I find invis spell much more useful because you can keep casting it when revealed repeatedly and still manage to get away without dying. I've cast it as many as 3 times before I managed to stay hidden and stealth away.

  This.

  Former content creator for UO Stratics.
• popps Posts: 4,345

  November 6 edited November 6

  Petra_Fyde said:

  The thing is, and many will disagree with me on this. But smoke bombs aren't a rogue's resource, they're a ninja resource. I find invis spell much more useful because you can keep casting it when revealed repeatedly and still manage to get away without dying. I've cast it as many as 3 times before I managed to stay hidden and stealth away.

  That's what my point is...

  
  

  That the invisibility spell (or potion) wins hands down, for a Rogue character, versus the use of smoke bombs... hands down...

  
  

  As your gameplay experience shows, to me this shows it is a fact, and, to my opinion, an "unfortunate" fact because, for a Rogue, a smoke bomb should instead be a more natural resource to get invisible rather then using the invisibility spell or potion.

  
  

  Sure, the smoke bomb is a Ninja thing yet, Ninjas and Rogues have one thing in common, they live and thrive in the hiding... stealthing, being always in the dark, invisible...

  
  

  This is why I say that, game wise, Rogues should be more naturaly incline to use smoke bombs and not the invisibility spell or potion.

  
  

  Yet, because of the smoke bomb timer, this is not.

  
  

  I happen to think that this should be corrected so that Rogues could more naturally be incline to use smoke bombs rather then the invisibility spell or potion.

  
  
  
• Victim_Of_Siege Posts: 2,547

  November 6

  Here's what Google sez, and it aligns with what most are saying. we don't need a change for Ninjer smoke bombs, Thieves don't use em. 
  
  

  Google sez: Smoke bombs are far more strongly associated with ninjas than with thieves. Their use is deeply rooted in historical and pop culture depictions of ninjas as stealthy operatives who vanish in a puff of smoke.

  Why Ninjas and Smoke Bombs Go Hand-in-Hand

  • Historical usage: Real ninjas (shinobi) in feudal Japan used smoke bombs as diversionary tools to escape or confuse enemies. These were often crafted from hollowed-out eggshells filled with gunpowder and irritants.

  • Tactical advantage: Ninjas used them both defensively (to flee when discovered) and offensively (to blind or disorient targets before striking).

  • Psychological effect: The sudden disappearance in smoke contributed to the myth that ninjas had supernatural powers, reinforcing their mysterious image.

  • Pop culture reinforcement: From anime like Naruto to video games like Ninja Gaiden, smoke bombs are a staple of the ninja toolkit, often shown as tools of stealth and surprise.

  What About Thieves?

  While thieves in fiction might occasionally use smoke bombs, especially in modern heist or spy stories, this is more of a borrowed trope from ninja lore. Thieves are more commonly associated with lockpicks, disguises, or sleight-of-hand than with theatrical escapes.

  So if you're crafting a character or scene and want to lean into the classic imagery, smoke bombs scream "ninja"—not "thief."

  
  

  
  

  A Goblin, a Gargoyle, and a Drow walk into a bar . . .
  
  Never be afraid to challenge the status quo
  
  
• KroDuK Posts: 1,375

  November 7 edited November 7

  LOL,
  
  Grim had me foul, I really thought he was higher troll tier for a while. 
  His problem is not because he's running instead of walking!
  
  @popps Are you asking why you cannot use hiding skill after performing stuff like; stealing action/skill?
  If there is a delay between a stealing action and the moment a thief can perfrom hide action, there is a VERY good reason.
  
  Also, what Petra and i'm sure (maybe) the AI of Victim are saying make sense, but it's not the point he's making.. his problem is not with the maximize/enhance hiding; smoke bomb itself.. it's with hiding.
  
  He just did not know what Smoke Bomb was really doing.. using his HIDING skill.
  Personally, i'm a coward so indeed I have magery and smoke bomb is only for emergencies.
  
  Edit: if u read Petra.. DROP THE PROTECTION! It's a crutch, for that build. You keep proving me right.

  So rather than recognise the effort the botters went to, to set all that up - for the benefit of the players, to help get certain items, something you could never be bothered to do, you would rather drag people backwards to your neanderthal world?
  
  Leave attended paying accounts alone, these people go thru a lot of trouble to automate the game.
  
  It’s comical to me you are so frightened of somehow bod scripters get some sort of advantage.
  
  -UO official forums, brought to you by BoardSword studio
• Petra_Fyde Posts: 1,545

  November 7

  KroDuK said:

  
  Edit: if u read Petra.. DROP THE PROTECTION! It's a crutch, for that build. You keep proving me right.

  You play you, I'll play me. I don't like to fizzle when I want to cast invis. That way only leads to grey robes.
• KroDuK Posts: 1,375

  November 7

  Petra_Fyde said:

  I'll play me.

  Elf imbuer style.

  So rather than recognise the effort the botters went to, to set all that up - for the benefit of the players, to help get certain items, something you could never be bothered to do, you would rather drag people backwards to your neanderthal world?
  
  Leave attended paying accounts alone, these people go thru a lot of trouble to automate the game.
  
  It’s comical to me you are so frightened of somehow bod scripters get some sort of advantage.
  
  -UO official forums, brought to you by BoardSword studio
• Grimbeard Posts: 3,295

  November 7

  KroDuK said:

  Petra_Fyde said:

  I'll play me.

  Elf imbuer style.

  So now you have 2 active account to come tell us how terrible we and the game are ?
• popps Posts: 4,345

  November 7 edited November 7

  KroDuK said:

  LOL,
  
  Grim had me foul, I really thought he was higher troll tier for a while. 
  His problem is not because he's running instead of walking!
  
  @ popps Are you asking why you cannot use hiding skill after performing stuff like; stealing action/skill?
  If there is a delay between a stealing action and the moment a thief can perfrom hide action, there is a VERY good reason.
  
  Also, what Petra and i'm sure (maybe) the AI of Victim are saying make sense, but it's not the point he's making.. his problem is not with the maximize/enhance hiding; smoke bomb itself.. it's with hiding.
  
  He just did not know what Smoke Bomb was really doing.. using his HIDING skill.
  Personally, i'm a coward so indeed I have magery and smoke bomb is only for emergencies.
  
  Edit: if u read Petra.. DROP THE PROTECTION! It's a crutch, for that build. You keep proving me right.

  
  

  I am not talking about the hiding skill... I am talking about using a Smoke Bomb which is at a handicap (because of the 10 seconds timer) as opposed to using the invisibility spell or an invisibility potion which instead hide the user right away.

  
  

  I think this as wrong because, at least to my opinion, the smoke bomb use seems more natural for a Rogue rather then using the invisibility spell or an invisibility potion.

  
  

  Yet, because of the 10 seconds timer delay that smoke bombs have, this cannot happen and, obviously, players prefer to use the invisibility spell or potion.

  
  

  The weirdest thing, to my opinion, is that the 10 seconds delay while tied to all "non" combat skills, does not take place when combat skills checks are done infact, it is perfectly possible to use smoke bombs while in combat...

  
  

  Even if using a Detect Hidden skill, if the Rogue gets revealed right after using Detect Hidden and wants to use a smoke bomb to hide away, this is not possible before the 10 seconds from using detect hidden lapse... of course that players then use the invisibility spell or potion and who cares about smoke bombs... they are not reliable due to this 10 seconds timer which I happen to think it should go away.

  
  

  He just did not know what Smoke Bomb was really doing.. using his HIDING skill.

  
  

  Are you saying that smoke bombs do not hide like the invisibility spell or potion do but simply "re-use" the hiding skill ?

  
  

  How is that possible when using the hiding skill is not possible when aggroed by MoBs (or players attacking) while instead smoke bombs do work even when aggroed (if the 10 seconds timer has lapsed, of course...) ?

  
  

  They do not seem to be the same thing to me, do they ?
• Pawain Posts: 11,535

  November 7 edited November 7

  • Players can double-click a Smoke Bomb to make a normal Hiding skill check (treated as if they pressed the Hiding skill button), which if they succeed they will become Hidden, and then immediately make an additional free Stealth skill check to enter Stealth
  • Players cannot use a Smoke Bomb immediately after Stealing from another player, and must wait the normal 10 seconds skill cooldown after stealing from a player before they may use a Smoke Bomb

  Smoke bombs, allow players with at least 50 Ninjitsu skill to go into hiding instantly, even while in combat. Once the bomb has been activated, a Hiding skill check is performed as if the player were greater than 7 squares away from their opponent. Players with 100 skill in Hiding can detonate a bomb and go into hiding right next to an attacker.
  Using a bomb counts as activating the Hiding skill and is thus affected by skill delay (around 10 seconds). If revealed, a player cannot use a bomb to hide again until the skill delay has elapsed.
  
  They sound OP to me.  I guess you would have to understand game mechanics to get to the OP point.

  Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
• Grimbeard Posts: 3,295

  November 7

  Another case of being given the answer or answers and continues to argue can we please lock now ?
• Rocko Posts: 254

  November 7

  In before lock.

  Former content creator for UO Stratics.
• Victim_Of_Siege Posts: 2,547

  November 7

  

  A Goblin, a Gargoyle, and a Drow walk into a bar . . .
  
  Never be afraid to challenge the status quo
  
  
• Grimbeard Posts: 3,295

  November 7

  The irony of ninja being considered a magic Makes his point even more pointless 
• popps Posts: 4,345

  November 7 edited November 7

  Pawain said:

  • Players can double-click a Smoke Bomb to make a normal Hiding skill check (treated as if they pressed the Hiding skill button), which if they succeed they will become Hidden, and then immediately make an additional free Stealth skill check to enter Stealth
  • Players cannot use a Smoke Bomb immediately after Stealing from another player, and must wait the normal 10 seconds skill cooldown after stealing from a player before they may use a Smoke Bomb

  Smoke bombs, allow players with at least 50 Ninjitsu skill to go into hiding instantly, even while in combat. Once the bomb has been activated, a Hiding skill check is performed as if the player were greater than 7 squares away from their opponent. Players with 100 skill in Hiding can detonate a bomb and go into hiding right next to an attacker.
  Using a bomb counts as activating the Hiding skill and is thus affected by skill delay (around 10 seconds). If revealed, a player cannot use a bomb to hide again until the skill delay has elapsed.
  
  They sound OP to me.  I guess you would have to understand game mechanics to get to the OP point.

  
  

  That is all known things, nothing new.

  
  

  The issue here is not how smoke bombs work, the issue is the 10 seconds timer which makes them useless "unless" one is in combat for which, go figure, the 10 seconds timer after a skill check is void. That is, if one uses detect hidden or the steal skill they have to wait 10 seconds before the smoke bomb was to function while, instead, if they hit their opponent in combat the very split second before, they can hit a smoke bomb right away and hide immediately.

  
  

  It is not surprising that Rogues then use the invisibility spell or potion and leave their smoke bombs home...

  
  

  And that is wrong, to my opinion.

  
  

  As I see it, it makes way more sense for a Rogue to use a Smoke Bomb rather then an invisibility spell or potion yet, they cannot, because of the 10 seconds timer.

  
  

  An why does it make more sense for a Rogue t use a Smoke Bomb rather then an invisibility spell or potion ?

  
  

  Because smoke bombs come from ninjas... and ninjas live, thrive and prosper into hiding... guess what ? That is also what a Rogue does...lives, thrives and prosper at dark, in hiding and stealthing...

  
  

  So, as I see it, smoke bombs would be the natural resource for a Rogue, just like a Ninja, to get into hiding... yet, they cannot use it because of the damn 10 seconds timer... and have to use the invisibility spell or potion instead.

  
  

  This makes no sense whatsoever to me.

  
  
• Grimbeard Posts: 3,295

  November 7

  Again ninja is magic rogues should not use magic at all but have the ability to use every kind if you are struggling use both bombs and invis pots problem solved again @Mariah let's lock this 
• Pawain Posts: 11,535

  November 7 edited November 7

  The issue here is not how smoke bombs work, 
  
  They work like they have worked for years, you just want them to work a different way.
  
  How can you say the issue is not how they work?  Bard skills have delays, other skills have delays.
  
  That is inherently how they work.

  Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
• Grimbeard Posts: 3,295

  November 7

  Outside people wonder why popps is treated poorly this thread a perfect example a question asked answered and then the arguments begin but but but...
• Rorschach Posts: 564Moderator

  November 7

   You are entitled to your opinion.
• Grimbeard Posts: 3,295

  November 7

  Rorschach said:

   You are entitled to your opinion.

  Gotta love trash talking mods..
• KroDuK Posts: 1,375

  November 11 edited November 11

  Grimbeard said:

  So now you have 2 active account to come tell us how terrible we and the game are ?

  Wrong topic.. this should have been deleted by the moderation if they were not just doing moderation on people they dislike on their personal character/account.
  
  PS: the picture u refer on the house placement topic was taken in 2024. You fool.
  
  
  

  Grimbeard said:

  The irony of ninja being considered a magic Makes his point even more pointless 

  And your ROGUE/THIEF does not have Magery?
  Every single point u did in this post was planly wrong or totally dumb.
  You blaming him for your bad answersss??? shame on you McDougle.
  
  
  The difference with your knowledge and popps knowledge is very THIN!!
  Consider this knowing popps has trouble learning and the fact that he keeps trying to learn.. unlike you.. that knows VERY LITTLE and pretend you know more stuff than me for example.. wich is HILARIOUS.
  
  
  

  Grimbeard said:

  Rorschach said:

   You are entitled to your opinion.

  Gotta love trash talking mods..

  This is totally insane!! Start by deleting McDougle off topic and left field stuffssss.
  Wich totally does not help the OP andmake things worst.
  I would say his insult/bullying toward the OP.. but yeah, you are in on it, it seems... 
  
  All you had to say here to Popps is.. to consider the PvP.. if there is a 10 sec delay between hide and steal..
  Other than that POPPS demands make sense.. do u know why?? cuz of heresy like invisible potion (giving every template invisibility is sooooo bad on a MMO sandbox) same for stuff like apple to remove curse..
  Him asking for easy mode smoke bomb 100% invis with an OP next to an attacker with no delay, make sense here.. cuz of the other heresy on this sandbox.
  
  
  @popps Try this.. 4/6 casting ninja.. as soon u pop a smoke bomb u got a free stealth check u can legit teleport away from the heath zone, almost INSTANT.. drop the protection spell it's a crutch for elf imbuer.
  PS: same after stealing.. u'll be 2/6 mage invis then 4/6 shadow jump away.
  Easy to get 4/6 even on a thief ninja.. cuz of heresy BS added like recently free FasterCasting on a new item piece. (exclusive broken stuff)
  
  
  TL;DR for popps to demand to drop the 10 sec delay between hide and stealing make so much sense.. if u consider stuff like invisible potion.. you guys consider this stupid.. as I consider the invisible pot stupid (easy option for untalented players)
  I would say it's kinda dumb to have invisible potion and still having a 10 sec delay between hide and steal.. like the left hand did not know what the right hand was doing type of dumb.
  
  Edit2: just in case.. MY solution wouldn't to remove the 10 sec delay but delete heresy like invisible potion and tell him to get good with magery and/or ninja thief or play another class.. like a tamer on trammel.
  
  Back then u'd need to use magery SCROLLS if u wanted ninja on such build for a quick invisible, as a solo thief after stealing... till the moment u realised u'd be WAY better using poison and kill people instead stealing from them. 

  So rather than recognise the effort the botters went to, to set all that up - for the benefit of the players, to help get certain items, something you could never be bothered to do, you would rather drag people backwards to your neanderthal world?
  
  Leave attended paying accounts alone, these people go thru a lot of trouble to automate the game.
  
  It’s comical to me you are so frightened of somehow bod scripters get some sort of advantage.
  
  -UO official forums, brought to you by BoardSword studio
• Cookie Posts: 2,052

  November 11

  Going to agree with Popps on this one.
  
  People wanting to differentiate between rogues, and ninja's, mine/many have both sets of skills.
  
  If the smoke bombs were not there to be used - why are they in the chests as re-stockable resources - having clearly stealthed up to them, then used detect hidden, and remove trap - then steal to get the item potentially. The entire point of a smoke-bomb was to give you one chance to hide whilst in combat mode - to then be stopped by a timer is quite laughable...
  
  If the steal fails, you are on a timer, and cannot use the smoke-bomb - it actually does not make sense.
  
  I would certainly argue a smoke bomb is more rogue-like than an alchemist or mages invisibility potion, although of course my rogue has magery as well...
  
• Cookie Posts: 2,052

  November 11 edited November 11

  And no differentiation has ever been made between Paladins, and Necromancers...
  Or warriors, and spellcasters...
  {Sampires...}.
  
  Why go so hard on rogues/ninjas.