Exit Dungeon/Logging Off looses looting rights ?

popps

Petra_Fyde said:

What has paroxymus swamp dragon got to do with it? I don't have one either, but I've seen enough ghost ones in the dungeon to know they die too.

I never log off to save the pet, but I do have it linked to a pet ball so that I can get it out of the dungeon as soon as I'm rezed. I will admit that often I log in a tamer on another account to get it rezed, unless there's a kindly tamer at the entrance who'll do it for me. But if all else fails I also have elixir of rebirth that I can use to rez it, provided I take it home first.

The problem is not that you were outside getting rezed, but that you broke your connection to the action by logging out. As you can not get a drop if you're not in game, the easy answer is, don't leave the game.

I know that one player on Europa has 5 swampies, I see 'swampy1' or 'swampy3' ghosts often. Perhaps that would be an answer? when one dies, just get the next one out of the stable?

The problem is not that you were outside getting rezed, but that you broke your connection to the action by logging out. As you can not get a drop if you're not in game, the easy answer is, don't leave the game.

Well, the beauty of software, is that, since the client "knows" that Player X has done sufficient damage to be awarded a drop, or whatever credit towards a drop, this could be "saved" and be rightfully given to the player when the player comes back.... be it into the Dungeon, or into the game by logging back in...

Think about Doom for a second...

To my understanding, the way that it works is that by killing MoBs, one "builds up" one's own chances at a drop.

Do the character loose that "build up" when they leave Doom or log off the game ?

Not to my understanding.

That "build up" stays with their character and next time they go down Doom to kill some more, they increase that "building up of chances" thus increasing further more the probability at a drop.

If this is valid with Doom and its drops, why cannot it be likewise valid with the Treasures of Events "build up" of probabilities to get an artifact drop ?

popps

Pawain said:

I do this all the time and go back and get the items the balron stole from me.

@ popps must not have done enough damage. Or he tried to loot a different corpse.

.....must not have done enough damage. Or he tried to loot a different corpse.

Me and another player only hitting the Paragon Balron with me doing 150-170 damage per hit (Armor ignore with slayers) and hitting it at least 15-20 times before dyeing.

Only one corpse there. Not only one Paragon Balron corpse, only one corpse period. No chance to mistake a corpse....

popps

dvvid said:

If I went to work and died I wouldn’t expect a paycheck to be sent to me. If I was resurrected and returned to work, I think it would freak everyone out. 

Anyway, my thoughts are:
Don’t log out if you want looting rights. 

If resurrecting your swamp dragon is a hassle for the dungeon, don’t use one. I don’t and I get plenty of drops. 

If you have a second account then make a character with veterinary skill and park them outside for resurrecting.

The “points” or loot from a a single dead mob, regardless of difficulty, shouldn’t even matter this much if it doesn’t happen often. Ultimately, I think this “issue” is pretty insignificant. Just stay logged in. 

If resurrecting your swamp dragon is a hassle for the dungeon, don’t use one. I don’t and I get plenty of drops. 

Not all players can afford high end armor.... and neither they can afford a 140 millions paroxysmus Swamp Dragon...

So, an ordinary, regular Swamp Dragon is an important thing for a player with less means and, thus, a weaker suit.

Of course that a player with a suit costing hundreds of millions and with a whole lot of properties at CAP can have the luxury of running around with an ethereal mount... they have their suit to support them, they do not "need" a swampie....

Players who cannot afford those kind of suits, instead, "need" the swampies to help them out a bit and somewhat tone down the shortcomings of their cheaper and much less protective suits, at least.

Pawain

You act like it is a big deal to kill one.  I've killed hundreds by now.  Why are you concerned about one. And what are you expecting on the corpse?  If it stole an item you would get it back even if you did no damage.

You getting 60 drops an hour now like Sampires get? 

popps

Seth said:

You have to accept that when your character dies there will be penalties and if you managed to get rewards for what you did before dying so good for you.

So, why does Doom not work like that and whatever players "build up" down in Doom killing stuff "stays" with their character even if they die, exit Doom, log off from the game ?

Why shouldn't looting rights and "build up" for Treasures of Artifact drops "stay" with a character even if they exit the Dungeon, die or log off ?

They DID the work, they EARNED their "build up", I do not see why that "credit" should then be taken away from them in the first place.

popps

Seth said:

Btw, its just a Paragon Balron, not even a named boss or something that will drop a Insane tinker or cameo, many of us don't even bother to look at the corpses. 

In Shadowguard, we clear 5 rooms and fight 4 bosses. If it happens the whole team die in the final boss, we get nothing, zero, nada - for all the hard work. 

In Shadowguard, we clear 5 rooms and fight 4 bosses. If it happens the whole team die in the final boss, we get nothing, zero, nada - for all the hard work. 

Well, in my opinion, that is very wrong.

Work done should ALWAYS be rewarded, always.

I would like to know how many would see it as proper or just, that work was done without being properly rewarded.

Would anyone work in real life without a proper pay/reward for it ?

McDougle

And the worse is those red raiders after i worked the spawn they get my reward how unfair 

popps

Pawain said:

You act like it is a big deal to kill one.  I've killed hundreds by now.  Why are you concerned about one. And what are you expecting on the corpse?  If it stole an item you would get it back even if you did no damage.

You getting 60 drops an hour now like Sampires get? 

As I said, it is not about the loot on the corpse but, rather, about the "credit earned" from killing a Paragon Balron towards then getting a Treasures of Artifact drop.

I imagine that, if a character cannot open a corpse because lacking looting rights (even if they DID do extensive damage to it, but ended up dyeing/logged off/exited dungeon when it was killed by someone else ), that such a character is also NOT awarded any credit for killing that Paragon Balron towards "building up" higher chances at a Treasure of Artifact drop.

This, is the issue, not the items on the corpse.

A player did the work and spent the time to help kill a Paragon (sometimes Paragon Balrons can take quite some time to get killed if there is only a couple of players trying to....), and yet, he/she gets nothing out of it only because he/she exited the Dungeon/died/logged off when the Paragon happened to get killed?

Seriously ?

popps

McDougle said:

And the worse is those red raiders after i worked the spawn they get my reward how unfair 

How can it be fair when one does the actual work but then another takes away the payout ?

Work is sacred, and should always be recognized and valued IMHO.

Pawain

@popps how do you know you lost credit for the drop reward?  Can you see your points?  I can't see mine.  

As usual you are worried about speculations in your mind that are not real or even in the game.

ForeverFun

@popps,

To simplify, the issue is as such:

Looting rights are calculated at the time the monster dies.  If a player/pet did damage to the monster, they will not receive looting rights at the time of death, if player/pet are not on the same subserver as the monster when it dies.

(The discussion of re-logging, etc is not relevant).  It's a matter of whether you were "present" at the time and place of death.

You can easily test this against say an ogre lord in the new haven mines.  Do 50% damage, recall out, have somebody else finish it, then return - you won't have looting rights.

McDougle

Do i need to post Greta to get this train wreck closed??  Should have happened 10 reply ago...

popps

Pawain said:

@ popps how do you know you lost credit for the drop reward?  Can you see your points?  I can't see mine.  

As usual you are worried about speculations in your mind that are not real or even in the game.

I said, that I "assume" that I lost credit for the drop reward....

And, this, because I could not open the corpse at all, thus meaning, that I had no looting rights.

If I had not looting rights, or, better said, I was "taken them away from me" because I logged off/died/Exited dungeon, whatever, how could I then "keep" credit from that Paragon Balron kill towards getting a drop reward ?

I did the work, and was taken away from me what I should have been rightfully received (credit from that Paragon Balron kill towards my artifact drop) ?

popps

ForeverFun said:

@ popps,

To simplify, the issue is as such:

Looting rights are calculated at the time the monster dies.  If a player/pet did damage to the monster, they will not receive looting rights at the time of death, if player/pet are not on the same subserver as the monster when it dies.

(The discussion of re-logging, etc is not relevant).  It's a matter of whether you were "present" at the time and place of death.

You can easily test this against say an ogre lord in the new haven mines.  Do 50% damage, recall out, have somebody else finish it, then return - you won't have looting rights.

Looting rights are calculated at the time the monster dies.  If a player/pet did damage to the monster, they will not receive looting rights at the time of death, if player/pet are not on the same subserver as the monster when it dies.

I get that.

But I think, that if it is coded that way, it is wrong and deprives players of the work that they do towards the kill.

If the client can "see" whatever character has looting rights, this means that, throughout the entire fight, it memorizes what character does what damage.

Then, at the moment of the kill, it compares the various hitters and determines who has looting rights in order to award whatever is associated with having looting rights for that kill.

Now, that said, WHO CARES if the character is dead, logged off, exited the dungeon, whatever ?

To my viewing, what matters is that the player did the work throughout the fight and, therefore, should rightfully be awarded whatever is associated with having looting rights for that kill.

My equation is, player did the work = player should get the associated reward regardless their condition at the time of the kill (logged off, dead, on another sub-server, whatever).

Work should never ever go without a rightfull compensation for that work, to my opinion.

vortex

I could only imagine all the goodies that you missed out on....

Arnold7

The game dynamic is you don’t get credit for the kill if you are dead and I suppose based on this post also if you are not in the dungeon.  Don’t think that can be changed.  Happens to me a lot.  Just have to live with it.

Grace

About the not wanting to deal with a dead swampy part of this thread.  Would be great to give pure warriors a bonus by letting them resurrect their own pet, but not allow it to heal or cure a live pet.

Anatomy/Healing would work just like Animal Lore/Vet for resurrecting your own pet only.

Thoughts?

popps

Grace said:

About the not wanting to deal with a dead swampy part of this thread.  Would be great to give pure warriors a bonus by letting them resurrect their own pet, but not allow it to heal or cure a live pet.

Anatomy/Healing would work just like Animal Lore/Vet for resurrecting your own pet only.

Thoughts?

Considering how Tamers are less and less played (I would have wanted to play a Tamer, yet, because of how these Events have been Designed favouring Warriors, I had to go against my playing wishes, which is sad, and, reluctantly, had to have to make and play a Warrior if I wanted to have a decent chance at getting drops to get some of the nicer rewards), and how those few Tamers still resisting playing a Tamer, even though at a loss (because with a significant lower chance to get Artifact drops), may not have veterinary, the chances to consistently find a tamer to res one's own pet, particularly if not at prime playing time, can be quite slim...

Furthermore, it is very annoying to have to bug someone else to have to stop what they are doing and come res our pet, and this, not just once, but over and over each and every time that one dies...

Because, if the Warrior dies, and does not log off, it is 100% guaranteed that the Swampie dies too....

And, as many have mentioned already, in these Treasures of Dungeons, dyeing is quite a frequent event....

Therefore, one would need to always be bugging tamers to please come at dungeon Entrance to res pet rather then working their kills to get their drops ?

Sounds unrealistic and, honestly, too much to ask to fellow players.... they rightfully want to get going with their gameplay and not continuously have to res someone else's pet...

The Elixir of rebirth ? Unrealistic at 150,000 gp per potion.... at the rate that one dies in these Dungeons, it would be millions upon millions gone every day... if even those many potions where to be available.

And NPCs Veterinary, as we well know, have a high downtime which would basically make the Warrior have to sit and wait for a res way too long, way too often.... unrealistic just as well.

And I do not find it as proper that players should make an EJ Veterinary fnd make it sit outside the Dungeon's Entrance, for the sole purpose of ressing one's Warrior's Swampie.

So, I need to agree that it should be given to Warriors, somehow, the ability to res their Swampie.

Perhaps, it could be made as a 3rd additional Mastery that goes along with the Weapons' ones.

Pawain

You choose to use a Pet that can die.  You can ride an Ethereal pet.  My Archer bard puts his Crab in the stable and uses a Charger for these events. 

Quite a few others in this thread do not use Swampys so this does not affect them.

You make choices you deal with the consequence.  

Unfortunately UO was not designed to reward all work.  It had thieves from the beginning and players can steal your spawn in Fel.

popps said:

Work should never ever go without a right full compensation for that work, to my opinion.

 Try Reforging if you want to see hard work wasted.

But the system is 24 years old and counting. Apparently it works.

McDougle

You know who can never get the damage reduction of a swampy a gargoyle not ever because they are excluded due to race maybe stone boots of swampy riding i mean it worked to let whiny humans ride Cu's...

popps

Pawain said:

You choose to use a Pet that can die.  You can ride an Ethereal pet.  My Archer bard puts his Crab in the stable and uses a Charger for these events. 

Quite a few others in this thread do not use Swampys so this does not affect them.

You make choices you deal with the consequence.  

Unfortunately UO was not designed to reward all work.  It had thieves from the beginning and players can steal your spawn in Fel.

I said it already, that those who can sport a uber suit with lots of properties maxed out, can afford riding an ethy.

Players who, instead, cannot afford these "uber suits", and neither can afford a 140M Paroxysmus Swampie, need the generic, regular Swamp Dragon to, at least, "make it up" a little for their much weaker suits....

For these players, with more affordable much also much weaker suits, running an ethereal would mean dyeing a whole lot more and being able to kill a lot less and much more slowly.

In a numbers' game, properties are 90%, perhaps even more, of the work.

Not to mention that, Dragon's Barding lasts very, very little and, at 750 ingots per deed, it already makes the use of regular Swamp Dragons quite expensive that penalizing it even further, would look to me quite excessive.....

McDougle

@popps so you feel it's fair that gargoyles have no way of getting damage reduction? Don't they have to work twice as hard every 60 point attack hits you for only 48 while they receive full damage how can they be rewarded for this 

popps

McDougle said:

@ popps so you feel it's fair that gargoyles have no way of getting damage reduction? Don't they have to work twice as hard every 60 point attack hits you for only 48 while they receive full damage how can they be rewarded for this 

Not at all.

Gargoyles have already plenty disadvantages in their suits, the fact that they have to have a higher SSI that Human/Elves can go with, a very limited choice of weapons, and, at least to my opinion, their racial Berserk bonus is useless, pretty much....

So, I think that Gargoyles should get their damage reduction bonus.

McDougle

popps said:

McDougle said:

@ popps so you feel it's fair that gargoyles have no way of getting damage reduction? Don't they have to work twice as hard every 60 point attack hits you for only 48 while they receive full damage how can they be rewarded for this 

Not at all.

Gargoyles have already plenty disadvantages in their suits, the fact that they have to have a higher SSI that Human/Elves can go with, a very limited choice of weapons, and, at least to my opinion, their racial Berserk bonus is useless, pretty much....

So, I think that Gargoyles should get their damage reduction bonus.

If not to level the playing field make armored swampys move at walking speed...

popps

McDougle said:

popps said:

McDougle said:

@ popps so you feel it's fair that gargoyles have no way of getting damage reduction? Don't they have to work twice as hard every 60 point attack hits you for only 48 while they receive full damage how can they be rewarded for this 

Not at all.

Gargoyles have already plenty disadvantages in their suits, the fact that they have to have a higher SSI that Human/Elves can go with, a very limited choice of weapons, and, at least to my opinion, their racial Berserk bonus is useless, pretty much....

So, I think that Gargoyles should get their damage reduction bonus.

If not to level the playing field make armored swampys move at walking speed...

Personally, when it comes to working on balancing, rather then "lowering" other Templates capabilities, I would preger "enhancing" the capabilities of those Templates which are the underdogs....

So, instead of seeing swampies move at walking speed, I would prefer to see Gargoyles to be given "something" that would give them their likewise damage reduction....

McDougle

popps said:

McDougle said:

popps said:

McDougle said:

@ popps so you feel it's fair that gargoyles have no way of getting damage reduction? Don't they have to work twice as hard every 60 point attack hits you for only 48 while they receive full damage how can they be rewarded for this 

Not at all.

Gargoyles have already plenty disadvantages in their suits, the fact that they have to have a higher SSI that Human/Elves can go with, a very limited choice of weapons, and, at least to my opinion, their racial Berserk bonus is useless, pretty much....

So, I think that Gargoyles should get their damage reduction bonus.

If not to level the playing field make armored swampys move at walking speed...

Personally, when it comes to working on balancing, rather then "lowering" other Templates capabilities, I would preger "enhancing" the capabilities of those Templates which are the underdogs....

So, instead of seeing swampies move at walking speed, I would prefer to see Gargoyles to be given "something" that would give them their likewise damage reduction....

I agree wholeheartedly allow crafters to make wing barding deeds seems like a fair solution 

McDougle

There should also be a healer stationed in safe area on each floor a a no wait Veterinary at entrance..

Yui_Zii_Ariya

Logging out to save a pet is an exploit, you are cheating, plain and simple, this should never have been a thing and it's not just used to save pets.

Pets don't go wild now, pet 'temporary' auto-stable should be removed.  That said, the ridiculously long NPC vet rez timer needs to be removed or at the very least greatly reduced and vets placed nearby event locations much like healers are, not everyone plays on a busy shard or at prime time.

Larisa

Logging out to save a pet is NOT an exploit contrary to what you say...

Here is part of the transcript from a Meet and Greet that discusses it. The entire team says that is a FEATURE working as intended.

( I BOLDED the parts that are pertinent) 

[17/08/14][13:59:05] [Crystal] Maximus Minimus says: are you aware of 4 cheats that come from auto pet log out/stable?

[17/08/14][13:59:29] [Mesanna]: the auto pet rescuse?

[17/08/14][13:59:39] [Maximus Minimus]: yes when you log out, your pet is auto stabled

[17/08/14][13:59:42] [Maximus Minimus]: instantly

[17/08/14][13:59:45] [Mesanna]: right

[17/08/14][13:59:54] [Maximus Minimus]: are you aware there are 4 cheats that abuse this?

[17/08/14][14:00:05] [Mesanna]: thats not really a cheat

[17/08/14][14:00:17] [Maximus Minimus]: okay well what if i say to you

[17/08/14][14:00:26] [Maximus Minimus]: when you log out in a fight

[17/08/14][14:00:33] [Maximus Minimus]: your char remains for 5 mins in game?

[17/08/14][14:00:47] [Maximus Minimus]: or else people would log out when they are going to die no?

[17/08/14][14:01:06] [Kyronix ]: That is correct for player characters

[17/08/14][14:01:11] [Maximus Minimus]: but you can do this with a pet and it's okay? that is cheat number one

[17/08/14][14:01:21] [<26642941>NEBIROS]: wasnt the pet auto-stable put in to prevent people from losing pets during server crash/maintenance? id rather have pets safe that whatever "cheat" he is claiming...

[17/08/14][14:01:24] [Maximus Minimus]: so pets are invincible cos you just log out

[17/08/14][14:01:29] [<34226807>Mesanna]:  yes it was

[17/08/14][14:01:32] [Maximus Minimus]: cheat number 2

[17/08/14][14:01:36] [Kyronix ]: You can still target the owner can't you?

[17/08/14][14:01:42] [Kyronix ]: Because they are still in the world

[17/08/14][14:01:46] [Maximus Minimus]: yeah if they're not stealthed!

[17/08/14][14:01:51] [Maximus Minimus]: so cheat number 2

[17/08/14][14:01:54] [Kyronix ]: There are mechancis to reveal them

[17/08/14][14:02:14] [Maximus Minimus]: so part of the game is to log out?

[17/08/14][14:02:17] [Kyronix ]: And that functionality has been there since inception, to prevent the loss of pets

[17/08/14][14:02:21] [Maximus Minimus]: that is a good part of the game nce

[17/08/14][14:02:32] [Maximus Minimus]: yes but if yo added a 5 min delay

[17/08/14][14:02:37] [Maximus Minimus]: that would make it fairer

[17/08/14][14:02:42] [Maximus Minimus]: same as with players

[17/08/14][14:02:54] [Maximus Minimus]: the second cheat relating to auto stable

[17/08/14][14:03:06] [Maximus Minimus]: there are some areas such as champ spawns

[17/08/14][14:03:15] [Maximus Minimus]: that you cannot use a pet ball of summoning to summon a pet

[17/08/14][14:03:24] [Maximus Minimus]: as summoning is not allowed in these areas

[17/08/14][14:03:40] [Maximus Minimus]: but it's okay to just take your pet from the stable

[17/08/14][14:03:45] [Maximus Minimus]: goto the champ spawn

[17/08/14][14:03:52] [Maximus Minimus]: and relog to summon your pet?

[17/08/14][14:04:01] [Maximus Minimus]: in an area tha summoning is not allowed

[17/08/14][14:04:20] [Maximus Minimus]: the third cheat with auto pet log out is

[17/08/14][14:04:36] [Maximus Minimus]: if you are stealthed

[17/08/14][14:04:39] [Mesanna]: A Glorious Servant of the Crown

[17/08/14][14:04:43] [Maximus Minimus]: and use a crystal ball of summoning

[17/08/14][14:04:51] [Maximus Minimus]: it will reveal the player

[17/08/14][14:05:02] [Maximus Minimus]: but you can summon a pet when stealthed by logging in and out?

?

[17/08/14][14:05:10] [Maximus Minimus]: they make part of the game to log out?

[17/08/14][14:05:14] [Bleak]: The system is working as intended due to the fact it prevents pets from being lost.

Larisa

And again at another M&G:

[17/08/28][16:36:25] [Crystal] Pervyn says: i would like to disCuss again the auto pet stable log in/out

[17/08/28][16:36:46] [Mesanna]: same answer as last time it was asked

[17/08/28][16:36:53] [Pervyn]: i was not quite orret

[17/08/28][16:36:59] [Pervyn]: CorreCt with the 4th exploit

[17/08/28][16:37:06] [Mesanna]: ahh

[17/08/28][16:37:08] [Pervyn]: i misdesCribed it

[17/08/28][16:37:33] [Pervyn]: so the Question is, if you're going to tame a Najasaurus

[17/08/28][16:37:41] [Pervyn]: how would you tame it and get it to the stables?

[17/08/28][16:38:59] [Pervyn]: or let me rephrase maybe, how are you supposed to get a fresh tamed

[17/08/28][16:39:05] [Pervyn]: najasaurus to the stables?

[17/08/28][16:39:17] [Mesanna]: I would tame it and either take it to the stables or log out

[17/08/28][16:39:35] [Pervyn]: oh okay, so part of the game is to log out?

[17/08/28][16:39:43] [Pervyn]: i thought that was used to

[17/08/28][16:39:50] [Pervyn]: stop peoples pets from

[17/08/28][16:39:57] [Pervyn]: being lost at Con loss

[17/08/28][16:40:05] [Pervyn]: but even You would abuse it?

[17/08/28][16:40:16] [Mesanna]: it is to keep pets from being lost and how is that abuse

[17/08/28][16:40:25] [Mesanna]: ok not going to argue that

[17/08/28][16:40:36] [Mesanna]: anything else?

[17/08/28][16:40:49] [Mesanna]: oh and btw

[17/08/28][16:41:53] [Mesanna]: this is the only thing  we are going to say on this matter

[17/08/28][16:41:54] [Mesanna]: first off

[17/08/28][16:42:01] [Mesanna]: using kindling after you have tamed a pet

[17/08/28][16:42:15] [Mesanna]: when not trying to run away from something or exploit something toget a pet in the stables

[17/08/28][16:42:18] [Mesanna]: is not an exploit

[17/08/28][16:42:21] [Mesanna]: and last time I looked

[17/08/28][16:42:35] [Mesanna]: I think we *points to the team* deem what is an exploit and what is not

[17/08/28][16:42:43] [Mesanna]: have a good evening sir