New Tmap proposals

Romano

I remember in the early years, when we did T-hunting, it was always a guild event.

There were only 2 T-hunters in guild and I think less then 5 on our server.

The t-hunter digged the chests up and at least 3 of the guild had precast invis and dropped it on the t-hunter, so he do not die.

Anyhow could tell you lots more, like how we "milked" chests over and over....

To make it short. - I GMed remove trap, while you not even could lock down a skill. - And believe me it was a pain, if a monster accidental hit you. And you need to fix all yer skills after the T-hunt.

Later we noticed that you can use telekinese to open it. - So 100 skill points waisted. - And as soon as over the years soulstones came out, the skill went to a stone.

I love the idea to make Remove Trap skill much more important.....!!!

But why are we need to solve puzzles? - It´s a waiste of time, while doing a T-hunt. - People, who want to go hunt there with me, will have to wait and see, when I do a mistake that an item goes "poof". How often you think they will come then to a guild / group hunt?

I did myself yesterday some "Trove" (which are considered as the hardest) maps in malas.

I had no issue to kill all monsters my own with 120 magery. Constant spamming EV made the jobs easy.  (this for one would need a big group to fight the monsters)

I do not know what I was doing wrong. - But I only got normal metal chests.

And I tell you what... I am used to do that puzzles... very often. - But every time I opened the chest ... it was empty. Not sure if the items in there went poof, or if I am just bugged.

I decided to no longer waiste time on monster killing and accepted maps from the blue stones there at the britain area. (on stone is written "no monster - just for testing remove trap)

I digged 2 of them up. - Gues what.... I got monster each time!

Anyhow... please REMOVE the PUZZLEs from Treasure Chest. - It´s a waiste of time and effort.

(and believe me... I waisted a lot of time on grinding things... but this is just hillarious!)

I love the suggestions to put the puzzles on that chests Miasma is dropping. - That would make sense. The farming would cool down. - And guys, who got some of that chests can have fun trying to solve the puzzles at home, using their character with Remove Trap skill.

You even could make events at home by having different chests to be opend, who opened the fastest and got the most loot..... etc from that Miasma chest.

But do not put Puzzels on Treasure chests, please. You will spoil all our fun.

TimSt

Romano said:

I did myself yesterday some "Trove" (which are considered as the hardest) maps in malas.

I had no issue to kill all monsters my own with 120 magery. Constant spamming EV made the jobs easy.  (this for one would need a big group to fight the monsters)

I do not know what I was doing wrong. - But I only got normal metal chests.

And I tell you what... I am used to do that puzzles... very often. - But every time I opened the chest ... it was empty. Not sure if the items in there went poof, or if I am just bugged.

What is your remove trap at and how long did it take you to defeat the guardians? The higher the RT skill the less damage done to the chest contents when you fail at the puzzle. And the longer it takes to defeat the guardians the more loot disappears from the chest. I soloed Malas Trove with 120 magery and 100 RT without using EVs and the chests had plenty of items in them after I defeated the guardians and solved the puzzles.

jaytin

I would like to just say that I do puzzles in other games and I'm not terrible, but I specifically play those other games because I WANT to do the puzzles. I am not playing UO to do puzzles, I just want to play my t-hunter and have a relaxing time, not stressing over a puzzle with people waiting around for me to get it done!

Parnoc

What am I missing here - why do we need puzzles on ANY level if we have 100 remove trap? Isn't that what Remove Trap 100 skill is for? I hate puzzles and suck at doing them, if they put these on chests, I am done, done doing chests and considering done with everything.

I hate the dust pile that replaces something in the chest when you fail to lock pick at GM, it makes me sick to think that pile of dust might have been the only Legendary in a chest I've got for digging a whole lot of high level chests. Now we're going to have to do puzzles which we will fail at several times and, very likely in my case, lose several items?

This is NOT a game positive, it makes players angry at the game or at least does me and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. If we have the highest level of any skill, we should NOT fail IMO.

This whole "upgrade" or whatever you call it is putting the game at risk for not only me but a lot of folks. I'm sure most of us read the posts, Stratics and also the official boards, so how many positive opinion posts are in those categories?

I remember asking for updated rewards for fishing for several years now and several people agreed and now I am told that fishing is not even in the plans to update because of the time it took to do all this other stuff.

Several folks did ask for better loot for TChests, but who decided it needed completely redone? I sure wish our overworked DEVs spent their valuable time on fixing bugs like why we hit our friends pets with our target macros, not unwanted crap like this TChest thing is turning out to be.

Petra_Fyde

I've been doing some thinking while I ironed hubby's shirts. Here are my thoughts:

1. IF puzzles stay I must either learn how to do them, restrict my hunting to stash - cache maps or find someone who enjoys them to go with me.

2. Currently treasure hunting is not seen as a group activity because it's darn boring standing around watching someone else standing by the chest and not visibly doing anything.

Now my ideas
Puzzle Traps.  What did our bored party members do to deserve getting zapped and losing a possible item out of the chest when the puzzler makes a mistake?  Instead, for the first 6 (?) failures a further guardian, or even guardians, might spawn; but not at the chest, at a random point within a 10 tile radius of the chest. (6 because you don't want people failing deliberately for ages just to cause more spawn). After 6 the chest contents become at risk as now.
Emptying the chest: Is it possible that when the person emptying the chest mouse overs an item, the mouseover tool tip might be displayed to anyone partied with them?  Enabling party members to say 'I'd like that one please'.  Mob spawn caused by items being removed,  make them, as above, not at the chest but at a random point around it, maybe even multiply the number spawned at each instance based on size of party. This would help to keep the party members engaged.

Arron

Petra_Fyde said:

I've been doing some thinking while I ironed hubby's shirts. Here are my thoughts:

1. IF puzzles stay I must either learn how to do them, restrict my hunting to stash - cache maps or find someone who enjoys them to go with me.

2. Currently treasure hunting is not seen as a group activity because it's darn boring standing around watching someone else standing by the chest and not visibly doing anything.

Now my ideas
Puzzle Traps.  What did our bored party members do to deserve getting zapped and losing a possible item out of the chest when the puzzler makes a mistake?  Instead, for the first 6 (?) failures a further guardian, or even guardians, might spawn; but not at the chest, at a random point within a 10 tile radius of the chest. (6 because you don't want people failing deliberately for ages just to cause more spawn). After 6 the chest contents become at risk as now.
Emptying the chest: Is it possible that when the person emptying the chest mouse overs an item, the mouseover tool tip might be displayed to anyone partied with them?  Enabling party members to say 'I'd like that one please'.  Mob spawn caused by items being removed,  make them, as above, not at the chest but at a random point around it, maybe even multiply the number spawned at each instance based on size of party. This would help to keep the party members engaged.

@Petra_Fyde Some very good ideas.

jaytin

Good ideas Petra but I doubt they could do that even if they wanted to bother. 

LilyGrace

Faeryl said:

@ Kyronix

I do actually have a question. It was stated that the higher your remove trap skill gets, the fewer hints you'll get towards completing the puzzle.

Shouldn't that honestly be the opposite? I would expect a person newer to trap removing fail more often. If someone is a Grandmaster at removing traps, wouldn't they have in theory picked up tips and tricks that would, in fact, help them to solve the puzzles easier? Shouldn't someone who has mastered the skill be getting hints to aid in completion, as opposed to someone, who in theory, has no idea what they're doing?

I agree. It doesn’t make sense to receive less clues with higher skill. 

Uriah_Heep

I thought Mervyn was banned...

*sigh*

Romano

TimSt said:

What is your remove trap at and how long did it take you to defeat the guardians? The higher the RT skill the less damage done to the chest contents when you fail at the puzzle. And the longer it takes to defeat the guardians the more loot disappears from the chest. I soloed Malas Trove with 120 magery and 100 RT without using EVs and the chests had plenty of items in them after I defeated the guardians and solved the puzzles.

I had 100 carthography, 100 locking and 100 remove trap skill. - I need not such long as I expected. Guess less then 10 minutes.

I really enjoyed T-hunts. - But I truely don´t understand, why we need to do a puzzle if we have remove trap skill at GM. - I would understand that a person without that skill might get access doing a puzzle. - But was is the bonus being GM in the skill?

Either one should remove the puzzle from T-chest, or the dependency when you are GM.

How about a 120 remove trap scroll? - Just so you get rid of that need to do a puzzle, when you hit the Legendary Remove Trap. - Then one can decide if he wants to go just for GM and do the puzzle or if he wants to invest 20 more skill points and never need to see a puzzle again.

(in case we really need to keep that puzzle thing... )

jaytin

Uriah_Heep said:

I thought Mervyn was banned...

*sigh*

You mean you wished he was...you are not alone 

Uriah_Heep

Powerscrolls were a mistake from the beginning.  No more powerscrolls, please.

They can code GM to do anything 120 would.

popps

Cinderella said:

I have to tell you I LOVE to do the puzzles on the tiger cage...
but I'm like NO to doing them on tmaps...
On the tiger cages, it usually takes me 2 or 3 tries to complete, but others in my guild can take 7 or 8 times and they get aggravated... 

(I haven't tested the tmaps yet, but will get around to it)

I understand about it being a group effort
but there is spawn to worry about, in the surrounding areas

if you have to have the puzzles...
how about adding the puzzles to the paragon chests that you get from Miasma?
cause then you could just take the chest back home to open without having to worry about other creatures while doing the puzzle. And someone who likes to do puzzles could do it for them.
make it so, that if you use a skeleton key, that you don't lose any objects if you get a wrong direction on the puzzle

================================

I have heard so many people say that, if the puzzles are left on the chests, that they will quit...
I'd hate to see so many quit cause they don't like puzzles

"I understand about it being a group effort
but there is spawn to worry about, in the surrounding areas..."

".....cause then you could just take the chest back home to open without having to worry about other creatures while doing the puzzle...."

That is why I suggested (https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/26955/#Comment_26955) that the Treasure Hunter, while working on Removing the Trap solving the Puzzle, should never get unhidden, no matter what, and be left in peace to solve the Puzzle while his/her Group fights the Guardians that spawned....

This means, fails at Removing the Trap while trying to solve the Puzzle, should not unhide the Treasure Hunter, Area spells falling around the Treasure Hunter working on Removing Trap should not unhide the Treasure Hunter, Reveals from Monsters should not unhide the Treasure Hunter.... nothing at all should unhide the Treasure Hunter working on solving the Puzzle.... period.

The Group could engage to their hearts' content to fighting the spawned Guardians while the Treasure Hunter is busy working on the Puzzle and removing the Trap and opening the Treasure Chest....

popps

Tim said:

On the topic of puzzles NO.
It makes no game sense to have to have the skill to disarm the trap then do a puzzle. Especially since some people, my self included are very bad a puzzles regardless what their characters skill is. With me it's the sliding pitchers I just never have been able to do them and couldn't if my toon had 200 remove trap skill.

If you must include puzzles make it a choice thing. A player could chose to invest the skill points and try with "remove trap" or they could try the puzzle. Same penalties for failure.

"If you must include puzzles make it a choice thing."

At some point, at the beginning of the Treasure Hunting revamp, it was suggested to add a SECRET COMPARTMENT to Treasure Chests with high end stuff in it like Artifacts, Legendary items or large stocks of ML/Imbuable Resources or of rare Recipes/Powerscrolls....

Such Secret Compartment would have required DETECT HIDDEN to be found as existing, and REMOVE TRAP to have access to it.

If THIS had been the path chosen, then the Puzzle could have easily been added to the Removing of the Trap to such a Compartment and, being ADDED content, complaints would have been far less since those who did not want to bother with Solving Puzzles (or adding Detect Hidden on top of Remove Trap to their Treasure Hunting Template) would have just left alone this added content and only interacted with the general Chest....

Was this idea considered, @Kyronix ?

Is it still possible to consider and implement it ?

popps

TimSt said:

Romano said:

I did myself yesterday some "Trove" (which are considered as the hardest) maps in malas.

I had no issue to kill all monsters my own with 120 magery. Constant spamming EV made the jobs easy.  (this for one would need a big group to fight the monsters)

I do not know what I was doing wrong. - But I only got normal metal chests.

And I tell you what... I am used to do that puzzles... very often. - But every time I opened the chest ... it was empty. Not sure if the items in there went poof, or if I am just bugged.

What is your remove trap at and how long did it take you to defeat the guardians? The higher the RT skill the less damage done to the chest contents when you fail at the puzzle. And the longer it takes to defeat the guardians the more loot disappears from the chest. I soloed Malas Trove with 120 magery and 100 RT without using EVs and the chests had plenty of items in them after I defeated the guardians and solved the puzzles.

@TimSt

"And the longer it takes to defeat the guardians the more loot disappears from the chest."

Is it known what are the times' requirements not to loose items ?

That is, in how much time one needs to kill the spawn or solve the puzzle not to loose items ?

And what are the various intervals of time that make an item from the Chest vanish ?

popps

LilyGrace said:

Faeryl said:

@ Kyronix

I do actually have a question. It was stated that the higher your remove trap skill gets, the fewer hints you'll get towards completing the puzzle.

Shouldn't that honestly be the opposite? I would expect a person newer to trap removing fail more often. If someone is a Grandmaster at removing traps, wouldn't they have in theory picked up tips and tricks that would, in fact, help them to solve the puzzles easier? Shouldn't someone who has mastered the skill be getting hints to aid in completion, as opposed to someone, who in theory, has no idea what they're doing?

I agree. It doesn’t make sense to receive less clues with higher skill. 

I totally second that... the higher the Remove Trap skill the MORE hints one should get, not less....

Merus

@Kyronix

I would say that remove traps has never been “broken”.  It has been an option, and working according to its design, since the inception of treasure maps.  Any player who enjoyed the “immersion” of treasure hunting has always had the option to train and use detect hidden and remove trap.  I will admit that the skills, as designed, were not great.

I do not see the fact that most players chose to use alternative ways to pop the trap as evidence that the design was broken.  I see it as a part of the treasure hunting experience that most did not want or enjoy.  That perception is reinforced by the comments I’m seeing related to this change.  In addition to adding a process that most aren’t interested in, requiring it as a skill present on the treasure hunter (or a member of the party) is going to mess with many existing treasure hunter templates.

I understand and respect the desire to revamp the remove trap skill so that it has relevance.  However, when I look and the balance between positive impact for players and negative impact for players, my view is that in its current iteration it is far more negative.

The idea of the kit seems like at least a step toward the positive.  I see it much like repair deeds... repair deeds didn’t suddenly make crafters who could repair items useless, it just meant that the crafter didn’t have to be physically present for other players to take advantage of their skill and contribution to the process.  Similarly, with the excitement of the treasure hunting revamp, the kits would be in high demand.  Those who can craft them can supply for their own maps, but could also participate in the economy for those who enjoy the maps but do not have the skill.

jaytin

Trap removal kits could be a nice little earner for Tinkers, but be careful what you ask for, it's more likely that they would implement it with the character requiring BOTH Tinker and Remove Trap skills so very few people would be able to fit it on their crafter.

foamy

Kyronix said:

@ Merus (without falling into quote-inception)

For a long time traps have been an irrelevant part of Treasure Hunting.  One of the most exciting activities in my early days was group treasure hunting.  There was fighting, a sense of discovery, the hillarity of the Treasure Hunter going boom, and ultimately the unknown of what was going to be inside.  Obviously times have changed, templates have evolved, and playstyles have adjusted.  I get that.  Part of this revamp is to deliver on the request of bumping loot.  Part of that is to fix the things that are/were broken with Treasure Hunting.  Traps were a major part of that.  UO character development has always been about give and take.  You can be a master of some, but not a master of all.  If I can take a full whammie character to a "treasure" map and bash on some mobs and then walk away with phat loot - where is the treasure hunting part of it?  That is no different than any other encounter involving combat at its core, and one that certainly doesn't warrant access to loot items reserved for other areas of the game world.  Introducing the trap is a way to bring balance to the entire encounter.

The idea of a trap removal kit was floated - but then we are back into the same situation we are at now - why have the trap in the first place?  

We are open to figuring out the best solution possible to check as many boxes on the revamp checklist as possible.  If that doesn't end up including puzzle traps, so be it.  We can always go back to the drawing board if players provide thoughtful, considerate, and useful feedback (like you have done).  That is why I made the stricter feedback thread.  Too often we see feedback that is based on inaccurate or incomplete information by people who are wholly uninterested in anything but pushing a point that falls somewhere between "nobody asked for this" and "you guys never listen and aren't willing to make changes" 

Thanks again for your thoughtful post.  See you on TC!

"This sucks don't do it."
"All we asked for was a loot upgrade"
"They don't want to hear it all they do is want free QA"
"Do they ever stop and reason this out?"

These posts are not helpful.  They do not illustrate constructive feedback, nor do they contribute to the iterative process of building the feature.  That is why we have a strict format in the main feedback thread.

Not true, these posts are helpful except to anyone whose definition of ' constructive ' is ' agree with me what a wonderful change this is. ' As a Charter Member from '97, I feel like weeping how day by day what made UO the most unique and greatest MMORPG ever, is being destroyed. Crafting has been killed. All but a few templates have been killed, all with the result/intent to turn UO into PO [ Pets Online ]. Those are just two examples. And now this, which will _kill_ t hunting. Perhaps that's the intent. The problem players had with t hunting was simple and required a simple fix. The chest was filled with what in todays game has been made useless, except for unravelling, but of course since crafting has been killed....Get rid of it, and leave the rest alone..simple fix.

KHAN

@Kyronix You said, The base loot tables are exactly the same for Lvl 3 as they are for Lvl 4 and Lvl 5. I am taking this to mean that the loot is exactly THE SAME in all 3 levels of chests. What am I missing, because that CAN'T be correct. otherwise, why even bother with the 4's and 5's????? 

Petra_Fyde

Quantity.  only 6 magic items in Cache maps, more in the other levels,  9 and 18 I think?  Not dug many of those up yet since the new update.

Kyronix

@KHAN what Petra said.

Violet

As for the puzzles: 

I did 9 solo trove thunt on TC.  First one took less than 5 minutes for me to dig up the chest, recall out and bring back my pet, kill the guardians and defeat the slider puzzle. Second one took the same time, and that time I got the circuit puzzle, had 5 fails, I lived because i healed. 

Time to complete the puzzles was between 1-3 minutes with 0-54 remove trap.  It used to take a lot more time to loot current treasure hunting chests than to do a puzzle on TC.  

The ONLY puzzle I can see being an issue is the cylinder one due to perhaps color blindness issues and it is the most complex one.  The slider puzzle is easy once you understand the strategy and the  circuit one you can guess your way to sucess in under 2 minutes.

Of the nine trove maps I soloed all but one were completed in under 8 minutes.  The longest one I had a cylinder trap, 0 detect hidden with guardians of 2 Ancient Wyrms, 2 frost dragons, 1 greater dragon, 1 titan, 1 poison elemental.

I remember helping Alliancemates with level 7s, sitting there for 10 minutes just while they went through the loot.  

I would like to know how many people complaining about the puzzles went out there and honestly tried them.

 This happens every patch.  Patch notes are released, there is abundant conjecture, which with simple testing or reading comprehension can often be disproved. Other people (who have done no testing or reading) latch on to this inaccurate information and spread as fact furthering the outrage.  

Norry

How about making the puzzles a toggle.

You can do the puzzle and no fail the remove trap, or take the skill based version AS IT IS NOW and have a chance at failing.

That would please both sides wouldnt it? Making it an option, and not a requirment?

LilyGrace

Off Topic: I have a girl crush on Violet. 

Kirthag

Been on the road without my netbook so didn't play yet (hope character xfer is fixed) will be doing that this weekend with at least one full davie's locker of maps of all sorts of levels.

I read the patch notes, thinking to myself this sounds interesting, but will tick off the daily T-hunters - as I read through here, seems I'm right. 

I have always believed t-hunting should work with skill, and on the surface the notes seem to go along those line, until the puzzle part.

snippit

• Must be untrapped using Remove Trap.
• Are trapped with 1 of 3 (circuit, cylinder, and slider) puzzle traps that must be disarmed before accessing the chest.

/snippit

So, as I read this, the puzzle is the trap - but yet, results in testing show that despite the untrap, there is still a puzzle to solve for lvl 4 & 5.

That is a bit.... contradictory - yes?

If a chest's trap is removed successfully, then shouldn't the puzzle be disarmed as well? otherwise, what is the sense in untrapping?

So this is the intent as I read it (for lvl 4 & 5 tmaps in test)

1. decode map (carto skill, already on template)
2. find location
3. guaranteed dig (no need mining, remove from template)
4. kill spawn (yay for fighters!)
5. pick lock (lockpicking skill)
6. remove trap (magery OR remove trap skill - adjust template)
7. solve puzzle (nothing to do with game skill, at all, whatsoever - rub)
8. loot-fest, if any is left (major rub for those who fail miserably with that puzzle)

steps 6 & 7 there are the rubs. If a person is GM+ on skill is checked for the untrapping, perhaps that puzzle shouldn't even be there anymore. Also, the chance of demolished loot with every fail of said puzzle should be a non-issue with those who are elderly on their skill path.

or

make the puzzle so darned easy that it won't matter for those with 120 in the checked skill

• skill check = 120 skill used =  99% success rate for full disarmament (I personally do not think anyone should ever have a 100% chance at anything - just me)
• RNG = 57 = full success on disarmament and puzzle removal
• 40 = difference = base loot + midrange specialty

that is, if the loot is figured with that math

conversely, a noob attempts a lvl 4 or 5 tmap...

• skill check - 35 skill used = 2% succcess rate for full disarmament
• RNG = 99 = complete failure = trap goes off and puzzle pops
• user must solve really hard puzzle
• fails 10 times, chest is destroyed with all contents

or perhaps

• skill check - 84.2 skill used = 60% success rate for full disarmament
• RNG = 61 = trap disarmed, but puzzle pops
• user must solve mid-level puzzle
• fails 3 times, 3 random items are destroyed, some light damage is dealt, and some monsters spawn with each fail 
• loot-fest whatever remains

So...

1. Check your terminology and explain what is really what
2. Confirm that the skill/spell "Remove Trap" is used for the trapped chest AND the puzzle, or not.
3. If #2 is "not", that there is part of the issue as it removes "character skill" and forces "player skill" which may not be desired

For myself, t-hunting is a pleasure past-time where I don't really need to "think" at what I do . Forcing "player skill" into play breaks that pleasure. "Garsh, you mean I need to think now?" is the underlying sentiment. I'm not saying this is a feature killer for me - it just means I will not be doing t-maps during my brain-dead days.

Will be testing this weekend - so long as character xfer is working. want to test existing template with the mining/remove trap skill swap.

Merus

jaytin said:

Trap removal kits could be a nice little earner for Tinkers, but be careful what you ask for, it's more likely that they would implement it with the character requiring BOTH Tinker and Remove Trap skills so very few people would be able to fit it on their crafter.

I’m actually on board with requiring both to craft. I’m happy to train remove trap skill and stone it for making kits as I need them.

LilyGrace

Honestly all the whining has taken the wind out of my sails for continuing on TC as far as going after chests. 

More and more I’m getting the feeling the puzzles won’t be added to the chests. And I’m not interested in spoiling my discovery (My favorite thing!)  of what’s new. Especially if it's unlikely what I’m testing will be implemented. 

I think if you’re a player that asked for better loot in chests but then whined about changing your template, or adding any new level of difficulty to the process, you're just that, a whiner.

What I find most frustrating are players who (those with bad connections excepted) won't get on test center to try a new feature out before deciding it's a bad idea. Or they won't come up with anything constructive that might help the seed of an idea grow into something we could all enjoy. Instead they just get loud about how this terrible idea, that they won't involve themselves with in any way, should be dismissed immediately.   

Obviously I like the puzzles idea.  I'd like to see content added that can only be reached by solving the puzzles on chests. If it were up to me puzzles would be added as a POSSIBLE find on all levels of treasure chests. I'd like the puzzles themselves to be a surprise, something extra that might pop up on any treasure chest if you're lucky.

But I'm not unreasonable. I can appreciate that some folks just don't like puzzles. So I'd also like to see a gump added that allows you to X out of a puzzle. If you X out of the puzzle, the special content is lost. You could X out if you hate puzzles. Or you could X out if you get stuck on one and get frustrated with the amount of time it's taking.

Anyway, I don't have much hope this new content will be added. I have some hope the puzzle boxes for training RT will still come along. I think they're a great add as well. But I'm afraid they'll be seen as unconnected to anything that makes sense or offers continuity if there won't be puzzles on treasure chests.

Please don't think I've called everyone here a whiner. I haven't. But if the shoe fits...

Faeryl

LilyGrace said:

Honestly all the whining has taken the wind out of my sails for continuing on TC as far as going after chests. 

More and more I’m getting the feeling the puzzles won’t be added to the chests. And I’m not interested in spoiling my discovery (My favorite thing!)  of what’s new. Especially if it's unlikely what I’m testing will be implemented. 

I think if you’re a player that asked for better loot in chests but then whined about changing your template, or adding any new level of difficulty to the process, you're just that, a whiner.

What I find most frustrating are players who (those with bad connections excepted) won't get on test center to try a new feature out before deciding it's a bad idea. Or they won't come up with anything constructive that might help the seed of an idea grow into something we could all enjoy. Instead they just get loud about how this terrible idea, that they won't involve themselves with in any way, should be dismissed immediately.   

Obviously I like the puzzles idea.  I'd like to see content added that can only be reached by solving the puzzles on chests. If it were up to me puzzles would be added as a POSSIBLE find on all levels of treasure chests. I'd like the puzzles themselves to be a surprise, something extra that might pop up on any treasure chest if you're lucky.

But I'm not unreasonable. I can appreciate that some folks just don't like puzzles. So I'd also like to see a gump added that allows you to X out of a puzzle. If you X out of the puzzle, the special content is lost. You could X out if you hate puzzles. Or you could X out if you get stuck on one and get frustrated with the amount of time it's taking.

Anyway, I don't have much hope this new content will be added. I have some hope the puzzle boxes for training RT will still come along. I think they're a great add as well. But I'm afraid they'll be seen as unconnected to anything that makes sense or offers continuity if there won't be puzzles on treasure chests.

Please don't think I've called everyone here a whiner. I haven't. But if the shoe fits...

I love you and @Violet right now. I haven't been able to test much yet due to my class and homework, but you've both really said much of how I feel. 

KHAN

@Faeryl "I think if you’re a player that asked for better loot in chests but then whined about changing your template, or adding any new level of difficulty to the process, you're just that, a whiner."

 My point is: The loot is actually WORSE than it was before, EVEN AFTER the "stealth T-chest loot nerf" that has been convienently forgotten. I have no problem making adjustments to my templates, I do it on a somewhat regular basis. BUT, to change my template, for WORSE loot, AND having to spend EVEN MORE TIME to get junk to unravel? Not something I'm interested in doing. AT ALL! If this monstrosity of a Treasure Chest revamp/upgrade is what ends up going "live", I suspect I will just put my T-Hunter to bed. If you feel that is whining, well you are entitled to your opinion. But one that is NOT shared, but by less than a handful of players. The fact remains, however, that the OVERWHELMING majority is NOT happy with this being passed off as an "upgrade".