ToT points: party penalty (!?)

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  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 796
    edited October 2023
    It sounds like the points available is multiplied for the number of players that ... qualify for the list.  And then the points are split based on weight / position in that list.  (?)

    Realize some people like game mechanics details, there's a history around that goes beyond Ultima.

    I've ruled out fame of the player character as influencing drops.  The party observation still holds though.

    Grimbeard, I'm not surprised re: afk.  On the other hand, the best you can hope for is possible investigation of whether something is amiss, and possibly a generic "adjusted afk detection" in the patch notes if a change was made.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,937
    edited November 2023
    Kyronix said:
    Pawain said:
    So basically if we kill stuff we get our earned points and other players do not affect our points. 2 players on one mob may yield less points per player but that time saved means more kills/time.

    That's all the math I need.
    2 players on one mob yields the same points per player as 1 player on one mob or 8 players on one mob.

    You are awarded a percentage of the total points available based on your position on the list.  The pool of points does not decrease once you are paid out your points.
    Could you please kindly be more specific with this point ?

    The 2 players on one mob, are we talking about partied or non partied players ?

    For example, let's take the example of 2 Warriors for the sake of the discussion, not partied, and hitting the same Paragon or a group of non-paragon mobs using whirlwind.

    Would the points from the mob(s) be "split" among the 2 warriors or would the 2 warriors earn the same drop points as they would if they were tackling those same mob(s) on their own ?

    What I am trying to understand, is whether the Design of the fighting against mobs incentivates players collaborating in the killing of mobs or whether, in order to maximize the earning of drop points, players had better do their killing of mobs all alone, on their own...

    Basically, if a player is hitting a paragon mob or a group of mobs with whirlwind, and another player comes along and starts hitting it/them as well, is the second player who arrived later taking any drop points away from the first player, or not ?

    Thank you for the helpful clarification.
  • SirBoloSirBolo Posts: 12
    edited November 2023
    @popps I'll make up an example based on my understanding of Kyronix's explanation.

    All numbers are invented for the sake of this example, we have no idea about actual numbers.

    Suppose that a Lady of the Snow is worth 1000 ToFL points.

    Also suppose that the points are split in this way between players based on position in the loot list: 100% for first place , 50% for second place, 25% for third place.

    In this case:

    1) Three players killing three different Ladies of the Snow will earn 1000 points each.

    2) Three players killing the same Lady of the Snow will earn 1000 points for the player in first place, 500 points for the player in second place, and 250 for the player in third place.


    Conclusions:

    1) The player doing most damage will earn the same number of points per mob. They will actually gain points faster in a group because they will get kills faster.

    2) The other players will get less points per mob, but they will probably end up with more points over time because they are getting kills faster in a group.

    Exactly how convenient grouping is depends on the actual in-game numbers which we don't know, but also on the relative strength of the players involved, which cannot be determined a priori, so it's impossible to give a general answer.

    Edit: in your specific example, where you do most of the damage and a second player arrives later and does a little damage, the answer is simple: you get the exact same number of points.

  • poppspopps Posts: 3,937
    edited November 2023
    SirBolo said:
    @ popps I'll make up an example based on my understanding of Kyronix's explanation.

    All numbers are invented for the sake of this example, we have no idea about actual numbers.

    Suppose that a Lady of the Snow is worth 1000 ToFL points.

    Also suppose that the points are split in this way between players based on position in the loot list: 100% for first place , 50% for second place, 25% for third place.

    In this case:

    1) Three players killing three different Ladies of the Snow will earn 1000 points each.

    2) Three players killing the same Lady of the Snow will earn 1000 points for the player in first place, 500 points for the player in second place, and 250 for the player in third place.


    Conclusions:

    1) The player doing most damage will earn the same number of points per mob. They will actually gain points faster in a group because they will get kills faster.

    2) The other players will get less points per mob, but they will probably end up with more points over time because they are getting kills faster in a group.

    Exactly how convenient grouping is depends on the actual in-game numbers which we don't know, but also on the relative strength of the players involved, which cannot be determined a priori, so it's impossible to give a general answer.

    Edit: in your specific example, where you do most of the damage and a second player arrives later and does a little damage, the answer is simple: you get the exact same number of points.

    Edit: in your specific example, where you do most of the damage and a second player arrives later and does a little damage, the answer is simple: you get the exact same number of points.

    I do not understand how the 2 players would do the same amount of points if, in your example, the 1st one gets 1,000 points for being top damager and the second 500 points for being 2nd best damager...

    While things do not change for the 1st player, for the 2nd player they do, since, if he/she was to tackle the Lady of the Snow on his/her own, rather then joining a player already hitting one, he/she would be getting 1,000 points, not 500....

    Also, while in the case of hitting a solo paragon mob for the player already hitting the Lady of the Snow things would not change, since being the highest damager he/she would still be getting his/her full 1,000 points, in the case of dragging several mobs to then stand in a place and hitting them with whirwind, things could change also for the 1st player since a second player arriving later on, could be doing more damage to the mobs still getting to the standing point for whirlwind and the player who did the dragging could see his/her points accumulation diminish since, for some mobs, they could see themselves not as the top damager for those later coming mobs, and thus getting less points as if they were hitting the cluster of mobs with whirlwind all alone...

    My concern is that, if this is how the points allocation was to work, this might promote individualism in players rather then collaboration whereas players might want to get their mobs all on their own and be them the top damagers in order to maximize points accumulation rather then share-kill with other players which could end them up not being the top damagers and, thus, get less points in the end...

    Yes, killing with others makes the kills rate faster.... the point is, which, by Design, which matters more, in terms of getting more drops faster.... the speed of the kill rate, or the amount of points earned per kill because being the top damager ?

    Of course, having both (kill fast as many mobs as possible and all solo) would be best, yet, clearly, for some mobs, particularly the paragons, the time to kill is high, regardless of how much damage a player could be able to do.... so, sharing with fellow players those harder to kill mobs, would get them to kill more of them, faster...

    If, which we do not know, the "quantity" of kills in a given time trumps the "quality" of kills (earned points) in that same time, then, sharing kills with fellow players would get promoted, since players would not be conservative with their mobs to kill, but would be willing to share them with fellow players since the more kills the better towards the speed of their points accumulation rate, even though, on some mobs one could end up being top damager and on others end up being 2nd, or 3rd etc and thus getting less points....

    Bottom line is, I am trying to understand whether the Design for points accumulation promotes in players the "sharing of kills" rather then a more individualistic approach to keep one's own kills for themselves... and what would determine this, I would imagine, is which way players were to get more points earned faster.... whether from "sharing" their kills with fellow players faster or whether killing them all on their own but with more time necssary.

    It would be helpfull if @Kyronix could better clarify this, I think.
  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 1,121Dev
    edited November 2023
    You only roll for a drop when you kill a mob.  If you are spending 10 minute soloing a mob vs 1 minute in a group you are getting more rolls over time with a group. More rolls, more drop attempts.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,052
    edited November 2023
    The drop systems have chances to win right away.

    If it takes 100 points to get a drop, at 50 points you have a % change to go right to a drop. The closer to 100 you get the higher the %.

    So as I have said at least 5 times. Faster killing yields more drops. Soloing a paragon for minutes just gets 1 chance, killing it in 10 seconds with a group yields more kills for the remaining time.

    A skilled player that can kill as fast as a group gets more drops.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 796
    edited November 2023
    Pawain said:

    So as I have said at least 5 times. Faster killing yields more drops. Soloing a paragon for minutes just gets 1 chance, killing it in 10 seconds with a group yields more kills for the remaining time.

    A skilled player that can kill as fast as a group gets more drops.
    Solo player capability isn't the topic; this topic is about whether there are penalties arising from being in a larger group, or being in a party.

    It could well be that having 10-20 players split into 2-4 separate groups [in separate hunting area] will yield those groups more drops over the same unit of time.  Particularly so if many things die in 1-2 hits.

    Independent from that, if there is effectively a party penalty, that does seem unwarranted.

  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,052
    Pawain said:

    So as I have said at least 5 times. Faster killing yields more drops. Soloing a paragon for minutes just gets 1 chance, killing it in 10 seconds with a group yields more kills for the remaining time.

    A skilled player that can kill as fast as a group gets more drops.
    Solo player capability isn't the topic; this topic is about whether there are penalties arising from being in a larger group, or being in a party.

    It could well be that having 10-20 players split into 2-4 separate groups [in separate hunting area] will yield those groups more drops over the same unit of time.  Particularly so if many things die in 1-2 hits.

    Independent from that, if there is effectively a party penalty, that does seem unwarranted.

    How many times does the guy who wrote it have to tell you there is no party penalty other than you do not get all the points for every kill.  Which is the same in a party or not.  The fame of a mob is constant, it does not change based on a player in a party.

    I have used a following bard in almost all of these events and I also go alone, I have not seen a difference.  My bard rarely shoots and may get 1 or 2 drops an hour. My leader stays alive easier with the Buffs I use so I am ressing less often,

    This event is more open, in Bettlescape I have gone alone and with a party and without a party in a group.

    More players means more mobs spawn, More players in the same area means paragons die faster, which means everyone is out killing the other mobs spread around at a faster rate.

    Is this your first Dynamic Dungeon event?

    Yes some solo players can kill as fast as a group and they do get a lot of drops compared to a player with slow reflexes and a no rush playstyle.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 796
    edited November 2023
    Pawain said:
    Pawain said:

    So as I have said at least 5 times. Faster killing yields more drops. Soloing a paragon for minutes just gets 1 chance, killing it in 10 seconds with a group yields more kills for the remaining time.

    A skilled player that can kill as fast as a group gets more drops.
    Solo player capability isn't the topic; this topic is about whether there are penalties arising from being in a larger group, or being in a party.

    It could well be that having 10-20 players split into 2-4 separate groups [in separate hunting area] will yield those groups more drops over the same unit of time.  Particularly so if many things die in 1-2 hits.

    Independent from that, if there is effectively a party penalty, that does seem unwarranted.

    How many times does the guy who wrote it have to tell you there is no party penalty other than you do not get all the points for every kill.  Which is the same in a party or not.

    Is this your first Dynamic Dungeon event?

    Stop trolling the thread please, you know this isn't my first event from prior event threads I've commented on.

    I haven't seen any definitive answer that takes the party factor out of the picture.  There isn't much specificity.  "Five on Friday" was good in that formulas and mechanics were covered, and that's obviously still popular given the number of comments/questions.

    You should also leave room for possibility of not having full knowledge of how something works (even a person that "owns" the code), as well as leaving room for people wanting to learn more details.  Again, devil is in the details.

    (take the detail example of perseverance - most players would be surprised to learn that can be a negative buff as it relates to drops.  That was not refuted.  But perhaps that observation may lead to a change?)
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,052
    So you will accept no answer from anyone.  Good to know.

    I tagged the testers I trust with this stuff in my first reply.  
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • KyronixKyronix Posts: 1,121Dev
    edited November 2023
    Party has no impact.  For the purposes of the calculations, every player is treated individually.  Again - other players and their position on the top contribution list have no bearing on your allotment of points.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,052
    edited November 2023
    Kyronix said:
    Party has no impact.  For the purposes of the calculations, every player is treated individually.  Again - other players and their position on the top contribution list have no bearing on your allotment of points.
    Thank you for repeating yourself again.(i also like redundancy) You have always tried to include players who like to play together in UO in the things you add to the game.

    Now what about that Bane potion that we can add to any weapon?
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,052
    edited November 2023
    @mariah question asked and answered more than 1 time.

    Wonderful info from the developers!  Lets not corrupt it with speculation so we can refer to this in the future.

    Some players hate to party even tho it benefits them in most encounters.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 2,002
    Pawain said:
    @ mariah question asked and answered more than 1 time.
    You understand and agree its still ok if others don't and need it explained 29 times 
  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 796
    edited November 2023
    To summarize a few things in the thread.  Some may be counter-intuitive.

    1. Do not use the perseverance bard buff, unless you need it for survival, as it may reduce your (or party) drop rate / points.
    2. Do not use an armored swamp mount, or the new hiryu mount, as it may reduce your drop rate / points.  (haven't tested this personally, but it follows the same logic as #1).
    3. Don't run at max resists.  You will take more damage, netting more points.  (both damage received points, and healing points).  Find your sweet spot for survival.
    4. The combination of dmg dealt, dmg healed, and dmg received (for points assignment) are why the sampire generally gets the most drops.  (sampire may get points in all 3 at once).
    5. If you are fighting in a group cooperatively, use weak weapons and spells (on weak monster), to avoid killing things too quickly.  Weak weapons/spells/not using slayers will increase the chance of others in the group getting points.  Find the sweet spot for players capabilities; this can be done without materially extending the timeframe of kills (and hence number of potential drop rolls).
    6. Split fighting teams into no more than say 1-4 players, as many mobs are weak, and die too quickly. (related to point  #5).
    7. If you are fighting solo, maximize the damage output.
    8. My observations re: party may deviate from what others have said.  That's ok, difference of opinion/diversity is good.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 9,052
    All 7 are good advice and you threw in the most important condition for using them.  Unless you need it for survival.

    Healing counts, Bandages or Spells.
    (I do not know if Life Leech counts, but I hope it does.)

    HP regeneration does not count.  So both peace buffs have negatives, if they are not keeping you alive to make up the points in other ways.  I take plenty of damage with resilience running and I use bandages, it allows me to not waste time ressing and sorting my backpack.

    Healing a player that was just ressed does not count.

    5.  If I am with another player Ill hit something once or twice and leave it for the next player to kill. I try to do 1/2 damage.

    6. Agree that is a perfect number for killing a high end paragon on the run for Archers and Melee.  Having to drag them to a spot uses time.

    9. Some players are better than others so don't fret over not getting as many drops as they say they are getting.

    Everything in UO is weighted, I think the killing stuff has the highest weight of all the contributors.
    But, get as many as you can.

    Kill stuff, have fun, get goodies.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • PlayerSkillFTWPlayerSkillFTW Posts: 524
    edited November 2023
    To summarize a few things in the thread.  Some may be counter-intuitive.

    1. Do not use the perseverance bard buff, unless you need it for survival, as it may reduce your (or party) drop rate / points.
    2. Do not use an armored swamp mount, or the new hiryu mount, as it may reduce your drop rate / points.  (haven't tested this personally, but it follows the same logic as #1).
    3. Don't run at max resists.  You will take more damage, netting more points.  (both damage received points, and healing points).  Find your sweet spot for survival
    You forget an old MMO saying. "Dead DPS do no DPS". Any time you spend dead, is time not spent getting drops. Dropping resists below max is not a good idea with how hard several of the Paragons can hit, especially considering Rune Beetles are occasionally part of the rotating spawn, and they can halve all of your resists via Rune Corruption, which is really bad when you're fighting a huge pack of mobs.
  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 796
    edited November 2023
    To summarize a few things in the thread.  Some may be counter-intuitive.

    1. Do not use the perseverance bard buff, unless you need it for survival, as it may reduce your (or party) drop rate / points.
    2. Do not use an armored swamp mount, or the new hiryu mount, as it may reduce your drop rate / points.  (haven't tested this personally, but it follows the same logic as #1).
    3. Don't run at max resists.  You will take more damage, netting more points.  (both damage received points, and healing points).  Find your sweet spot for survival
    You forget an old MMO saying. "Dead DPS do no DPS". Any time you spend dead, is time not spent getting drops. Dropping resists below max is not a good idea with how hard several of the Paragons can hit, especially considering Rune Beetles are occasionally part of the rotating spawn, and they can halve all of your resists via Rune Corruption, which is really bad when you're fighting a huge pack of mobs.

    My "unless you need it for survival" could be applied broadly to the text.

    If you're playing in a group, running a low resists luck suit (with luck jewel set) worked ok in my test.  The FCR6 is more useful than say FCR1 in a full resists luck suit.  52 in cold resist went OK, and did get more drops (tough to attribute to damage taken or fcr6 though).

    May not be recommended when running solo, or on a shard where there aren't many others around.

    I think highly mobile sampires should consider lower resists.  Also consider arachnid slayer cameo, with dragon slayer weapon while taking on skeletal dragons.

    p.s. to repeat something I said earlier, I think #1-#3 are an aberration/strange artifact, as currently implemented..
  • creampiecreampie Posts: 81
    edited November 2023
    @Kyronix lol reading this thread and keep anwsering them after all explanation and they still offtrack you have a jedi soul to persist
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,937
    edited November 2023
    To summarize a few things in the thread.  Some may be counter-intuitive.

    1. Do not use the perseverance bard buff, unless you need it for survival, as it may reduce your (or party) drop rate / points.
    2. Do not use an armored swamp mount, or the new hiryu mount, as it may reduce your drop rate / points.  (haven't tested this personally, but it follows the same logic as #1).
    3. Don't run at max resists.  You will take more damage, netting more points.  (both damage received points, and healing points).  Find your sweet spot for survival.
    4. The combination of dmg dealt, dmg healed, and dmg received (for points assignment) are why the sampire generally gets the most drops.  (sampire may get points in all 3 at once).
    5. If you are fighting in a group cooperatively, use weak weapons and spells (on weak monster), to avoid killing things too quickly.  Weak weapons/spells/not using slayers will increase the chance of others in the group getting points.  Find the sweet spot for players capabilities; this can be done without materially extending the timeframe of kills (and hence number of potential drop rolls).
    6. Split fighting teams into no more than say 1-4 players, as many mobs are weak, and die too quickly. (related to point  #5).
    7. If you are fighting solo, maximize the damage output.
    8. My observations re: party may deviate from what others have said.  That's ok, difference of opinion/diversity is good.
    I do not understand why # 1 and 2 would reduce the drop rate / points...

    And why the Perseverance bard buff only ? What about the other bard buff songs ?

    Why is that ?
  • creampiecreampie Posts: 81
    edited November 2023
    popps said:
    To summarize a few things in the thread.  Some may be counter-intuitive.

    1. Do not use the perseverance bard buff, unless you need it for survival, as it may reduce your (or party) drop rate / points.
    2. Do not use an armored swamp mount, or the new hiryu mount, as it may reduce your drop rate / points.  (haven't tested this personally, but it follows the same logic as #1).
    3. Don't run at max resists.  You will take more damage, netting more points.  (both damage received points, and healing points).  Find your sweet spot for survival.
    4. The combination of dmg dealt, dmg healed, and dmg received (for points assignment) are why the sampire generally gets the most drops.  (sampire may get points in all 3 at once).
    5. If you are fighting in a group cooperatively, use weak weapons and spells (on weak monster), to avoid killing things too quickly.  Weak weapons/spells/not using slayers will increase the chance of others in the group getting points.  Find the sweet spot for players capabilities; this can be done without materially extending the timeframe of kills (and hence number of potential drop rolls).
    6. Split fighting teams into no more than say 1-4 players, as many mobs are weak, and die too quickly. (related to point  #5).
    7. If you are fighting solo, maximize the damage output.
    8. My observations re: party may deviate from what others have said.  That's ok, difference of opinion/diversity is good.
    I do not understand why # 1 and 2 would reduce the drop rate / points...

    And why the Perseverance bard buff only ? What about the other bard buff songs ?

    Why is that ?

    because thats not true...dont beleive everything some specific people post. after all kyronix explanation he still dont understand it
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