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Healing VS. Life Leech For a Dexer....

poppspopps Posts: 4,039
edited November 2019 in Skills and Stats
I noticed that most templates tend to prefer Life Leeching as a source to stay alive for their Dexer Template...

Is it really THAT better as compared to using Healing and Parrying as a way to stay alive ?

I have been trying to find Guides and Templates Building example working around a Template using Healing, Anatomy and Parrying together with maximizing Hit Point Regeneration (Cap is 18), the First Aid Belt and Enhanced Bandages for the healing Bonus but, unless I was poor in my searching, I could not come up with anything.....

So, my Question to the Expert Dexers is, is it worth and Competitive to build a "Tanking" Melee Template revolving around Healing as a way to stay alive, also against multiple Attackers (PvM), or there is no Healing+Anatomy+Parrying set up which could be competitive versus the Life Leeching Templates ?

One thing that particularly bothers me about entertaining the idea of an Healing+Anatomy+Parrying Tanking Template, is where the UOGuide Healing page (Healing - UOGuide, the Ultima Online Encyclopedia) mentions :
Interruption will occur if the healer is hit for more than 26 damage by a monster or more than 19 damage by another player. The amount of damage healed will be reduced by 35% per interruption.
Considering that with Life Leeching ways such interruption or points healed reduction does not happen, does this mean that Healing+Anatomy+Parrying as a way to stay Alive, against High End creatures, is fundamentally "flawed" and can never ever be "as effective" as Life Leech as a method to stay alive ?

Has any UO Dexer found a Template and gear setup using Healing+Anatomy+Parrying and 18 Hit Point Regeneration that can be competitive versus the Life Leech Templates ?

Also, according to https://uo.stratics.com/content/skills/healing.php , the Healing Speed Formula is 

Healing Self: 11 - (Dexterity / 20).
Healing Others: 4 - (Dexterity / 60). 

Now, it mentions Dexterity, NOT Stamina.....

The CAP on Dexterity is 150 YET, the Table mentions as MAX Dexterity possible, the Range 140-159....

What gives ?

Yes, there do are Stamina Increase Items but they are for Stamina, NOT for Dexterity....

So, how is it possible to increase one's own Dexterity "beyond" the 150 Dexterity CAP in order to increase the speed at which heals can be done ?

And, if this is possible, what is the actually maximum speed that one can reach to heal oneself or others?

Thanks !

P.S. Often, for combat comparisons, there is a DPS (Damage per Second) Data thrown around.... is there a similar thing quantifiable in UO about health healed ?

That is, is there a way to see the HPS (Healed per Second) healed points that a character can heal using this or that other way of healing so to more easily figure out what would be the most effective healing Template to heal oneself ?

Comments

  • MariahMariah Posts: 3,302Moderator
    edited November 2019
    The Stratics page you reference is considerably out of date. It quotes a self healing time of 11 seconds. This was reduced to 6 seconds at 100 skill many years ago.

    The absolute best healing by bandages is achieved by two dexxers working together each healing the other instead himself. However this requires concentration and complete confidence in your partner.  In this situation bandage speed is 2 seconds.
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,039
    edited November 2019
    Mariah said:
    The Stratics page you reference is considerably out of date. It quotes a self healing time of 11 seconds. This was reduced to 6 seconds at 100 skill many years ago.

    The absolute best healing by bandages is achieved by two dexxers working together each healing the other instead himself. However this requires concentration and complete confidence in your partner.  In this situation bandage speed is 2 seconds.
    I was more trying to compare, as a way to stay alive, for a Dexer, what option is more viable, whether through Healing+Anatomy+Parrying or whether Life Leech whether from Weapons or Necro forms or else....

    I can find tons of write-ups about various forms of Sampires and variations, but very little about Dexers' Templates NOT using Life Leech as a way to stay alive but, rather, Healing with Anatomy and Parrying to reduce the damage sustained...

    Yes, cross-healing in between 2 Dexers is faster but I am more interested in finding out what is the highest speed/damage healed that a Dexer ONLY relying on Healing (with Anatomy and Parrying) and Hit Point Regeneration maxed out (CAP is 18, I understand) can achieve on a single, SOLO player.

    What I am trying to find out is, whether the 2 different methods to "heal up" are comparable to one another (I actually am of the opinion that, given the significant skill points investment, Healing+Anatomy+Parrying should provide better results as compared to Life Leeching....), or whether, as the game currently is, there is simply no way for Healing to be competitive with Life Leech.....

    If so, it would be quite upsetting though....

    Because, with Life Leeching a Template is not investing in skill points but, rather, in modifiers on items.

    With the use of the Healing skill, instead, one has to invest 120 points in Healing, 120 in Anatomy and likely 120 in Parrying for best results...

    That is a 360 skill points having to be invested, versus ZERO for those Dexers using Life Leeching ways UNLESS they use Necro which often is about 100 points spent, at most...

    So, I would find it very weird if Healing+Anatomy+Parrying in the end results an "inferior" way as compared to Life Leeches considering the substantial cost in skill points that it requires...

    @Bleak , @Kyronix , could you please look into this and, if necessary, bring some love to Dexers that used Healing+Anatomy+Parrying to justify the significant investment in skill points as compared to Life Leeching ?

    Thanks.
  • ShannowShannow Posts: 35
    edited November 2019
    I have 2 characters that are similar to what you are deciding between. You may find the builds of use:

    char 1-damage
    110 swords
    100 parry
    110 bushido
    100 lumberjack
    100 healing
    100 anatomy
    100 tacts
    suit gives me full resists + 45LMC + 150 stamina + 70 mana + >100hp
    + some mana regen, hp regen, stam regen
    + 30HCI + 45DCI + 100 DI
    + various slayer axes too
    + honor foe

    uses an axe with whirlwind + life leech, mana leech and stamina leech
    tactics - hits only every 2.5 seconds or so (cant remember exactly)
    but damage dealt is high enough (~100/hit/monster) to keep mana and health up assuming enough hostiles.
    Can't solo highend bosses though - one or two misses and i'm toast.
    bandage healing takes too long and the bushido moves of evade + confidence are not enough.
    if I took swords, parry, bush up to 120 and dropped healing and anat a little, might be enough.

    char 2 - defensive
    120 fencing
    100 parrying
    100 ninjitsu
    100 anat
    100 healing
    100 tactics
    100 focus

    uses leafblade + shield
    suit is full resists + 45LMC + 157stamina + ~60mana + ~110hp
    45 HCI, 45DCI, 100DI, 20SSI
    + life, stam, mana leech
    + 3FC and 6FCR (to keep mirrors up fast)
    everything else went in mana regen

    swings at fastest rate, keeps feint special move of leafblade permananently up. Also keeps up mirror images.
    couldnt keep mana up without focus. mana leech was not good enough. Didnt do enough damage.
    can solo kill higher end bosses than char 1. Just takes awhile due to lower damage output. But staying alive is easy. mirror images take most hits. Parry + 120 fencing + 45 DCI + feint = rarely hit. Would like to try a suit with 70DCI and lower resists next.
    Main issue is still mana though - 100 focus plus mana regen off items + mana leech against really tough monsters is just not enough and i run out after a few mins.

    conclusion
    anything less than 120 in weapon skill = missed hits = death.
    high damage output, fast enough, plus leech = alive
    120 weapon skill + 100 parry + 45DCI without doing enough damage or having extra defence is not enough to stay alive.
    keeping mana up without high damage output is difficult.

    hope that helps



  • poppspopps Posts: 4,039
    edited November 2019
    Shannow said:
    I have 2 characters that are similar to what you are deciding between. You may find the builds of use:

    char 1-damage
    110 swords
    100 parry
    110 bushido
    100 lumberjack
    100 healing
    100 anatomy
    100 tacts
    suit gives me full resists + 45LMC + 150 stamina + 70 mana + >100hp
    + some mana regen, hp regen, stam regen
    + 30HCI + 45DCI + 100 DI
    + various slayer axes too
    + honor foe

    uses an axe with whirlwind + life leech, mana leech and stamina leech
    tactics - hits only every 2.5 seconds or so (cant remember exactly)
    but damage dealt is high enough (~100/hit/monster) to keep mana and health up assuming enough hostiles.
    Can't solo highend bosses though - one or two misses and i'm toast.
    bandage healing takes too long and the bushido moves of evade + confidence are not enough.
    if I took swords, parry, bush up to 120 and dropped healing and anat a little, might be enough.

    char 2 - defensive
    120 fencing
    100 parrying
    100 ninjitsu
    100 anat
    100 healing
    100 tactics
    100 focus

    uses leafblade + shield
    suit is full resists + 45LMC + 157stamina + ~60mana + ~110hp
    45 HCI, 45DCI, 100DI, 20SSI
    + life, stam, mana leech
    + 3FC and 6FCR (to keep mirrors up fast)
    everything else went in mana regen

    swings at fastest rate, keeps feint special move of leafblade permananently up. Also keeps up mirror images.
    couldnt keep mana up without focus. mana leech was not good enough. Didnt do enough damage.
    can solo kill higher end bosses than char 1. Just takes awhile due to lower damage output. But staying alive is easy. mirror images take most hits. Parry + 120 fencing + 45 DCI + feint = rarely hit. Would like to try a suit with 70DCI and lower resists next.
    Main issue is still mana though - 100 focus plus mana regen off items + mana leech against really tough monsters is just not enough and i run out after a few mins.

    conclusion
    anything less than 120 in weapon skill = missed hits = death.
    high damage output, fast enough, plus leech = alive
    120 weapon skill + 100 parry + 45DCI without doing enough damage or having extra defence is not enough to stay alive.
    keeping mana up without high damage output is difficult.

    hope that helps



    Thanks for the good informations !

    If i understood it correctly, then, as it stands, with the current game mechanics, simply put, Healing is NOT a good way to stay alive...

    It takes too long to heal, it is too easy to get interrupted and thus have damage healed be substantially reduced and all that...

    As it stands, if I understand it correctly, with the current game mechanics, the only significant way to stay alive is through the Life Leeches and through maximizing Damage output which brings back more Healing, consequentially....

    Did I get it as right ?

    If I did, then I think that the Developers should look into giving to Healing as a way to stay alive as opposed to Life Leeching, some love.... increase the healing speed at 120, increase the health healed when in combination with Anatomy, whatever to make it so that Healing, considered the skill points investment, was no longer much inferiour to Life Leeching as a way to stay alive for a Dexer....
  • ShannowShannow Posts: 35
    I guess healing has its place.
    anat is there anyway for the damage bonus.
    100 more skill points or 120 or 80 depending and you can heal >50hp every 6 seconds.
    its not a complete waist of time, just a nerve racking 6 seconds.

  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,834
    Mariah said:
    The Stratics page you reference is considerably out of date. It quotes a self healing time of 11 seconds. This was reduced to 6 seconds at 100 skill many years ago.

    The absolute best healing by bandages is achieved by two dexxers working together each healing the other instead himself. However this requires concentration and complete confidence in your partner.  In this situation bandage speed is 2 seconds.
    Is 6 secound the fastest self heal?  Would 125 or even 150 dex change the time for self heal
  • MariahMariah Posts: 3,302Moderator
    Bilbo said:
    Mariah said:
    The Stratics page you reference is considerably out of date. It quotes a self healing time of 11 seconds. This was reduced to 6 seconds at 100 skill many years ago.

    The absolute best healing by bandages is achieved by two dexxers working together each healing the other instead himself. However this requires concentration and complete confidence in your partner.  In this situation bandage speed is 2 seconds.
    Is 6 secound the fastest self heal?  Would 125 or even 150 dex change the time for self heal

    I'm not sure. I can only find references to amount healed and the 6 seconds I listed. I will attempt to do some testing on the test center to clarify, unless someone has this information.

    My main reason for posting was that popps was drawing comparisons using a reference that was several years out of date, and therefore unlikely to give an accurate result.
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,039
    Shannow said:
    I guess healing has its place.
    anat is there anyway for the damage bonus.
    100 more skill points or 120 or 80 depending and you can heal >50hp every 6 seconds.
    its not a complete waist of time, just a nerve racking 6 seconds.

    Aside from the very long interval (6 or even 4 seconds in between each healing attempt can mean forever when under attack, especially from multiple attackers...), the big problem of healing, to my viewing, is that even with 120 Healing and 120 Anatomy, each interrupted attempt (which is quite an easy occurrance...) reduces the healed amount by 35% ....

    So, in between long healing intervals (yes, when under attack 6 or 4 seconds can well be a very LONG TIME....) and reduced healed points, the end result is that Healing does not help much, really, in staying alive when one compares it with Leeching Life methods....
  • BilboBilbo Posts: 2,834
    TY @Mariah
  • ShannowShannow Posts: 35
    bandage healing time can be quicker than 6 seconds but its based on dex not stamina.
    formula is:

    If my dex<80.1, then bandage heal time is 8 seconds,else it is (8-((my dex-80)/20)))

    thats what i found out anyway. Someone would have to test it to check.

    amount healed by a bandage is between:
    (Anat skill/6)+(Heal skill/6)+3
    and
    (anat skill/6)+(heal skill/3)+10

    As stated, interruptions affect those 2 numbers.
    PVM - each hit by a monster will drop the amount healed by 35% if damage received exeeds 26
    PVP - each player hit will interrupt a bandage if damage exceeds 19.


  • Petra_FydePetra_Fyde Posts: 1,468
    Why healing vs life leech?  You can have both. I do.

    My swordfighter has healing and anat for bandage healing, chiv for close wounds etc and some of her weapons have a little life leech too.

    The key thing in Shannow's info is 'if damage received exceeds 26'.  With a decent all 70s suit, that only happens with the very biggest mobs. 
  • ShannowShannow Posts: 35
    just to give a complete picture - some more information:

    if you are poisoned or bleeding then this is cured at 50% the time it would take to complete the bandage. However, when the bandage finally finishes it will only heal some of the damage it would normally heal.

    a bandage can only cure upto level 3 poison and bleed attacks.
    It can only cure anything if both anat and heal are each above 80 skill.

    if the level of poison or bleed attack is 3, then your chance of curing it is:
    ((anat+heal-120)*25)/60)
    the 60 refers to the strength of poison, so I guess / 20 for level 1.

    The amount that is healed when the bandage finally finishes is reduced by the level of poison/bleed attack. i.e. if it was level 3, then it is reduced by 60%.

    Again, all needs checking

  • poppspopps Posts: 4,039
    edited November 2019
    Why healing vs life leech?  You can have both. I do.

    My swordfighter has healing and anat for bandage healing, chiv for close wounds etc and some of her weapons have a little life leech too.

    The key thing in Shannow's info is 'if damage received exceeds 26'.  With a decent all 70s suit, that only happens with the very biggest mobs. 

    Why healing vs life leech?  You can have both. I do.

     "Jack of all trades, master of none" 

    Yes, one can have both but neither one to excel.....

    The problem with Leeching Life is, as other explained, that is needs damage to be maxed out as much as possible and, having to invest points in Healing, could affect this ability....

    Quite a good number of Templates do not even have Anatomy (which healing needs much in order to increase the amount of life healed...)...

    There is only "so many skill points" that one can fit in a Template....

    So, rather then considering a Template having both but doing neither one really well, I was more considering and comparing EITHER one as a way to stay alive, but brought up to their "best"....

    And see which one works as more effective in hekping a Dexer to stay alive whether when having to deal with high end Bosses or a multitude of Spawn....
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,039
    edited November 2019
    Shannow said:
    just to give a complete picture - some more information:

    if you are poisoned or bleeding then this is cured at 50% the time it would take to complete the bandage. However, when the bandage finally finishes it will only heal some of the damage it would normally heal.

    a bandage can only cure upto level 3 poison and bleed attacks.
    It can only cure anything if both anat and heal are each above 80 skill.

    if the level of poison or bleed attack is 3, then your chance of curing it is:
    ((anat+heal-120)*25)/60)
    the 60 refers to the strength of poison, so I guess / 20 for level 1.

    The amount that is healed when the bandage finally finishes is reduced by the level of poison/bleed attack. i.e. if it was level 3, then it is reduced by 60%.

    Again, all needs checking

    Thanks for the additional info which brings up yet more questions....

    Would a Template having 120 healing + 120 Anatomy be able to cure the max level 5 Poison then?

    With what chance and how many points would be healed back then ?

    Also, how does Life Leech deal with Poison at all ?

    If one gets poisoned, does Life Leech work just the same, fine, to Leech Life back, or would no life points be leeched back until the Template stays poisoned ?
  • ShannowShannow Posts: 35
    not 100% on this, but for a speedier response:

    bandages only heal up to and including level 3. They dont heal level 4.
    and you can leech mana, life and stamina regardless of being poisoned.
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,039
    edited November 2019
    Shannow said:
    not 100% on this, but for a speedier response:

    bandages only heal up to and including level 3. They dont heal level 4.
    and you can leech mana, life and stamina regardless of being poisoned.
    So, let me see if I got it right....

    Not only Life Leech, as compared to using Healing, permits to restore faster and more health points, but it ALSO permits  to heal oneself while being poisoned, contrary to Healing which does not work when poisoned and only heals up to max poison 3 ?

    @Kyronix , @Bleak , hallo ?

    And the 2 differying ways of healing oneself, that is, Leeching Life (at no skill points investment) OR Healing (with a significant investment of skill points) should then be considered as well balanced ?

    ????????????????????????????????????????

    Perhaps, JUST perhaps it is about time that Healing gets a BOOST to be brought on par or, considering the necessary investment of additional skill points to take up Healing AND Anatomy (which many Life Leeching Templates do not use...), that Healing is actually made BETTER as compared to Leeching Life with a Weapon in order to heal oneself ?
  • ShannowShannow Posts: 35
    you could argue that a lot more skill points are required to do enough damage to leech life.
    you also need a lot of imbuing slots to do enough damage to leech life.

    healing just needs bandages and dex and anatomy (anat you need anyway to do damage.)

    However, I do tend to agree that life leech forces folks down one road templates, to solo stuff.
    They should balance life leech, not healing.
    hits for 200 damage plus life leech every 1.25 seconds is just insane.
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,039
    Shannow said:
    you could argue that a lot more skill points are required to do enough damage to leech life.
    you also need a lot of imbuing slots to do enough damage to leech life.

    healing just needs bandages and dex and anatomy (anat you need anyway to do damage.)

    However, I do tend to agree that life leech forces folks down one road templates, to solo stuff.
    They should balance life leech, not healing.
    hits for 200 damage plus life leech every 1.25 seconds is just insane.
    Aside from the fact that I understand that many Samparies or variations do not use Anatomy but rely on other ways to maximize damage (which it means that for a Healing Dexer the skill points for Anatomy would need to be accomodated for as "extra"...), I do not think that addressing Life Leeching would be a wise thing to do, it would upset way too many players who enjoy these particular Templates....

    No, I'd rather see the Developers bring some true Love to Dexers who, instead, rather then using Life Leeching ways to stay alive, want to use Healing+Anatomy+Parrying to keep their Dexer alive when fighting Solo High End Bosses or a multitude of Enemies....

    Healing must be made more effective and usefull, to my opinion, make it so that to get the real added benefits a Healing Dexer needs 120 REAL Healing Skill and, perhaps, ALSO 120 REAL Anatomy Skill thus making it so that Templates using Life Leeching ways to stay alive would not be able to afford on a Template so many "real" skill points, create perhaps a Healing Mastery which needs 120 REAL skill for the top healing advantages but, definitively, to my viewing, it is necessary to BALANCE OUT Healing with Life Leeching and make it worth the heavy investment of skill points that the Healing way requires as compared to Life Leeching as a way to stay alive....

    Healing is WAY more ineffective and inefficient as compared to Life Leeching, it is not fair that when poisoned a character using Healing is rendered useless in healing health back while Life Leeching can heal through being poisoned....

    Also, maxing out the investment in Healing and Anatomy skill points, should definitively make it possible to also heal the highest types of poisons, me thinks....
  • ShannowShannow Posts: 35
    did some research - the curing timer at 50% will only cure upto level 3 poison and bleed attacks (classed as level 3).
    the full bandage timer will cure higher level poisons though, but will not obviously heal any hp.

    Also you need at least 60 anat and healing to cure.
    It's for ressurecting you need 80 skill in both.

    Popps - yes totally agree, the entire UO player base will moan like hell if they nerfed leeching.

    A possible boost to bandage healing:
    rather than have the health healed at the end of the timer, have it apply some healing every 1-2 or so seconds. The amount healed dependant on whether the player is interupted or not.
  • poppspopps Posts: 4,039
    Shannow said:
    did some research - the curing timer at 50% will only cure upto level 3 poison and bleed attacks (classed as level 3).
    the full bandage timer will cure higher level poisons though, but will not obviously heal any hp.

    Also you need at least 60 anat and healing to cure.
    It's for ressurecting you need 80 skill in both.

    Popps - yes totally agree, the entire UO player base will moan like hell if they nerfed leeching.

    A possible boost to bandage healing:
    rather than have the health healed at the end of the timer, have it apply some healing every 1-2 or so seconds. The amount healed dependant on whether the player is interupted or not.
    A possible boost to bandage healing:
    rather than have the health healed at the end of the timer, have it apply some healing every 1-2 or so seconds. The amount healed dependant on whether the player is interupted or not.
    Those are very good suggestions but I'd like to see more done to see Healing "catch up" Life Leech as a way to stay alive, considering the "extra" investment in skill points as compared to Templates who rely on Life Leech to stay alive and so without Healing and, often, also Anatomy as a way to stay alive for their Templates....

    For example, at the Highest skill investment in both, 120 Healing and 120 Anatomy, REAL skill points and not on items, this could permit heal speed to be further increased, possibly to cure level 5 poisons AND heal points back, stuff like this....

    Also, a Mastery for Healing could be introduced to add special, added healing benefits to the Template....

    There is only 1 Mastery that one can pick and, obviously, if the player was to choose a Healing Mastery, they would need to choose not to take advantage of a combat Mastery, for example...

    Obviously then, a Healing Mastery, if it was to be introduced, should provide significant advantages in order to compensate for the giving up of the advantages coming from a combat Mastery....

    What I am trying to say, is that, at least for characters investing the FULL 240 skill points in Healing + Anatomy and perhaps 120 REAL Parrying skill points on top of that, the advantages to stay alive should be so significant, one way or the other, that the Template should then, as a result, be able to become a real TANK template, also when facing toe to toe the Highest End foes in Ultima Online (stuff like the Roof Enchantress, Dark Fathers, Corgul, Charybdis, Exodus....).

    I mean, characters with Life Leech and no (or less points invested) points invested in Healing, Anatomy, Parrying can currently sustain, toe to toe, melee encounters with those High End Bosses and survive, why should then Templates chosing instead to invest 240 or even 360 REAL points (not from items) in Healing, Anatomy, Parrying should not be made able, likewise, to be able to succesfully TANK these High End bosses ?
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