Rogues Skills, why there are no masteries for them ?
I was not around when Masteries were implemented so, I know nothing about any players' feedback or discussions that might have arosen at that time about Masteries and skills....
Nonetheless, I can't help but noticing that Rogue skills like hiding, stealthing, stealing etc. etc. have no masteries for them....
Is there a reason for that ?
I mean, the Rogue Template is already quite limited in its playability and reason to exist so, perhaps, having Masteries that had broadened its range of playability and usefullness might have helped this particular profession....
Does anyone who was around at the time of Designing and implementing Masteries and who might have participated to the feedback and discussions on the Forums happen to know what was the reason to further limit the Rogue Template by having masteries be done for other skills but not for the Rogue skills ?
Nonetheless, I can't help but noticing that Rogue skills like hiding, stealthing, stealing etc. etc. have no masteries for them....
Is there a reason for that ?
I mean, the Rogue Template is already quite limited in its playability and reason to exist so, perhaps, having Masteries that had broadened its range of playability and usefullness might have helped this particular profession....
Does anyone who was around at the time of Designing and implementing Masteries and who might have participated to the feedback and discussions on the Forums happen to know what was the reason to further limit the Rogue Template by having masteries be done for other skills but not for the Rogue skills ?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Steal balms and lotions from monsters
Steal Exodus keys, ML ingredients and gems from Exodus Zeolots
Find and open hidden boxes in Exodus or Kotl City
Steal artifacts in numerous dungeons
If I join VvV I can steal sigils, earning Silver which I can then use to purchase Royal pardons and sell to other players.
If I were of different temperament I could stealth around champ areas and steal from players, but I don't like to do that ( I don't like upsetting people).
I see no area where having a 'mastery' would improve or expand what I can do.
To start - a lot of the masteries are based around a main skill of a template - for the rogue - they have chosen Ninjitsu, which does have a Mastery, and good ones as well.
My first thought was the same as Petra's, going to disagree on your "limited usefulness" of the Rogue.
If you go to Siege, you will notice almost every single character is using Hide/Stealth++. In my opinion, that's a bit of a downside of Siege, but it shows in that environment, it makes players feel safer, and how powerful those rogue skills are.
If you were to ask me for one thing from a Rogue, give them a method to get higher up the Loot chain, I always find that is a weakness in various play areas, but then there is a post I need to make still, to even articulate what I consider good loot.
Never be afraid to challenge the status quo
About the original post:
I see your point but I've made major coin just from my thief. So much so that it's become my most favorite and profitable character ever.
I'm not sure what is classified as an actual rogue now but I personally don't acknowledge ninja as anything other than an interchangeable support skill so I do see your point on this.
If anything I'd like to see more fun things to do with a thief. Like the locked trap boxes around towns could yield some nice stuff. Dungeon chests could be improved.
for
Treasure Hunters
I wasn't playing when the stealable dungeon artifacts were first introduced. Now there aren't many items on the list that most shards aren't fully saturated with ...
https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/pvm-player-versus-monster/stealing-in-dungeons/
For the higher end items, say Rarity Levels 9 thru 12, how much fun is it for rogues to compete for single items that spawn every 16 to 128 days? Where is the fun in knowing the system and having a rogue that camps those spawn sites, leaving only once in awhile to put an item away? Those that are into it have it locked down. That's great! But it's a pretty big stretch to call this "playing a rogue".
Stealing off monsters is not a money maker. Stealing from spawn chests isn't a money maker. There are much faster ways to earn gold than this. And while stealing from monsters is fun, why do it if the gold isn't great and the items aren't really wanted?
I don't know anyone on my shard that's VvV-ing. I'm not saying there isn't anyone playing a rogue that steals sigils but I've never once heard it talked about in General or Alliance chat. And if the ever problematic PvP thief isn't your thing? Then what?
Khaldun puzzle chests are a fun way, or were a fun way, to find low end treasure maps. But I stopped going when more and more of the chests became bugged, giving you the message that the container is secure, so you can't take anything out of it. There are easier less frustrating ways to get maps than dealing with bugged chests.
I've never found anything of interest in a chest that spawned by using Detect Hidden in Khaldun or Exodus. They don't contain enough gold to make the time it takes worth it. And they don't contain anything that can be marketed to other players.
I appreciate Popps opening up a dialogue on rogues but I'm not the least bit interested in masteries for rogues. Not one little bit. What I'd like, what I've always wanted for rogues, is to be useful in a way that's fun and doesn't wear out (like the dungeon stealables system).
I can think of lots of ways systems already in place could be revisited that would make playing a rogue more fun. That would offer better and more interesting loot. And would make a rogue more useful to the rest of the player population. But I'm not going to spin my wheels and spend my energy on it until or unless dev's are looking to engage players in a dialogue on the subject.
Yes I'd love to see more fun things to do. I think revamping dungeon chests with more todayish loot would be a great start.
Then I think running around the land detecting chests to lockpick and remove trap would also be fun.
While there is a very small chance to steal one of the 4 keys for Exodus, what really bothers me, is that most of the time the steal, even at 120 Legendary Stealing skill, yeilds only gold. Yes, ONLY gold, sometimes a few regular gems....
Only VERY rarely one gets 1 Peerless ingredient....
Bottom line is, MOST of the time stealing, even at the Legendary level, comes fruitless even though there is dangers associated....
Not to mention, trying to use Remove Trap on the hidden chests, still in the Exodus Dungeon....
Even at 100 GM Remove Trap skill, the message most always comes out as "Too Challenging" (UHU ???), inevtably the attempt fails setting the trap go off....
SO, it is totally pointless to carry remove trap on the Template, at least down in Exodus Dungeon.... better just stay at a distance and cast telekinesis to set the trap off....
But how much sense does this make, if I may ask @Kyronix ?
The player invests 100 skill points in the Template only to end up with a useless skill that removes no trap and using Telekinesis from a distance gets better results ?
Personally, I think that there is quite a good number of things that would need to be adjusted to make the Rogue player again fun and balanced versus the other professions in UO....
Investing skill points, like in the case of Stealing or Remove Trap, should absolutely yield better results as it does not, at least to my viewing...
Otherwise, what people would do (as they do now), is just run that one spawn or two like the roof where their time spent yields best results as compared to anything else they could do in UO.
That is at least how I see it.
I have been answering your questions in the stratics crime section. How did I know that you would be over here trying to get the devs to ruin my play style? It is obvious to me that you know nothing about this play style unless you became an expert on the subject since last night. I don't know what you are trying to do @popps but take all the advice I gave you over there and make it work for you. Perhaps you will become humbled by it. Trash.
While the " PvP " aspects for the Rogue character might be fun to play, and I am NOT saying they are not, the " PvM " aspects for the Rogue character perhaps need some love.....
Take the stealables.....
People is screaming about scripters having ruined IDOCS for them, but why don't we then also mention what scripters have done to " PvM " Rogue characters trying to get the in-game stealables?
They set their BOT to sit there by the stealable at each Server up from maintanance and run their script until the item gets created and steal it..... other " PvM " Rogue players, simply do not have a chance.....
Why can't it be possible to "improve" the PvM aspects for the Rogue character without endangering the " PvP " aspects which players already appreciate ?
Not all players play a Rogue character in PvP, there is plenty who have tried, until they found out all of the shortcomings, at least in PvM, to play a PvM Rogue character and then abandoned it because they saw how underhwelming and unfun it was, due to scripters, yes, but also to a very low potential for profitability in PvM.....
Having Masteries for Rogue skills (and doing domething to stop scripters' Rogue characters) perhaps could help towards a rightfull "comeback" of the Rogue character in Ultima Online...
At least, that is the way I see it.
Please refrain from advising on how a skill you have no experience of should be changed. Such ideas and suggestions should come from those who USE it.
I play my rogue often, no she doesn't make much gold, that's not the point of playing her. UO is a GAME - you play a game to have fun, or at least I do, and my thief is fun to play. Leave her alone!
My point is exactly what @Petra_Fyde said:
We have fun with our rogues. If anyone should be recommending changes, it should be me, or her, or someone who plays a rogue. Not someone who apparently just found out that the class exists yesterday and knows nothing about it. You asked me about how armor affects stealing yesterday, a clear sign that you know nothing about it. I would be surprised to learn that you have ever even used a rogue skill at all.
If PvM stealing has an issue with scripters, it needs to be dealt with by banning those scripters, not by adding some silly masteries. When someone like @Petra_Fyde has a suggestion for how PvM stealing could be made better I hope someone listens. Until then I suggest that it be left alone and that you keep your mouth shut and go do something else if the rewards aren't worth your precious time or whatever.
I should have known you were going to try to cause problems when you were asking for a list of rogue artifacts on stratics. In my first reply to you, I said that if you are planning on playing a rogue, you need to worry less about lists, gear, and stuff, and to focus on having fun with it instead. Believe it or not, for some of us, this game isn't all about receiving rewards for doing content. For some, the content itself is reward enough and whatever rewards we get are just extra. Perhaps you should play exclusively on test center, you get a bunch of stuff just for logging in there. Also, you will be away from the rest of us the majority of the time, which would make the game better for everyone and maybe when it comes time to test something, someone might listen to your stupid ideas.
So, let me understand, should I be happy that the UO stealables, at least those which are rarer, are not unusually camped by scripters and, when this haooens, consequentially pretty much not available to the ordinary, average PvM Rogue who does not script ?
Or, that stealing from Zealots just yields for the most part some gold, exceptionally some ordinary gems (5 or 6....) and only very seldomly (this at 120 Legendary stealing....) 1 or very maybe 2 ML resources and once in a blue moon an Exodus key ?
In the time it takes a high end Rogue to get LESS then 10-15 ML resources, the people doing the Roof or some other high end Boss have made PILES of gold and items worth millions....
And what does this mean ? That these players piling up gold drive up the prices for everything (inflation) and the PvM Rogue who can hardly make a gold point or 2, cannot afford buying anything....
My point, is a point of BALANCING..... when reaching the high end of their UO profession, to MY opinion, all professions should be moreless equally capable of making the same in-game gold so as to be able to then afford whatever they may need in the game....
Sure, it is a game, and it is about fun.... no doubt about that.
My question is, though, WHY can't that fun playing of a Rogue ALSO be one that was to bring to that UO "Rogue" Profession the same gold which other Templates doing the Roof and other high end encounters can achieve in the same playing time ?
I am not talking about taking the fun out of the Rogue profession, I am talking about making it AS profitable or at least not as much less, as other professions in UO.
Try spending 2 hours going around looting Dungeons' chests with a high end Legendary Rogue, and try spend that same exact time doing the Roof or some other high end encounter and then let's see what the "earning DELTA" is in between the 2.....
Yet, the in-game time spent is the same....
I am talking of an issue with BALANCE.
As of now, to my opinion, the Rogue, at least in PvM, is way, but WAY less profitable as other professions in UO.
I am just saying to do something to make it more rewarding to"catch up" with other Professions earnability potential in the game....
Oh dear. First the only stealable that's worth stealing is the inquis. That's been scripted since doom was made. The rest aren't worth the effort.
Yes I'd like to see more to do with a thief but a complete overhaul isn't needed at all.
Stealing sigils in VvV is most fun when there's someone around looking for you and can't find you.
Gold has nothing to do with that situation.
I had shed loads of fun last Halloween looking for boxes in Khaldun.
I'll steal the little skull candle in Doom if I want to do a particular deco scene, is it worth gold? heck no! but if you want to set up a spooky scene for Halloween, it fits.
So what? I don't want or need PILES of gold, or items worth millions. I don't care what they've got.
Don't make the character type fit your playstyle - play a character type that already fits. If gold is your god - play a character that gets lots of gold.
Unfortunately, making stealables spawn at random locations I doubt that it would hurt much scripters who rely on BOTs to get around looking where those stealables spawn and steal the, as they appear....
I think that some other solution would need to be conceived to deal with the problem of scripters dominating the rare stealables spawns thanking to their scripts....
As in regards to limiting Rogues in Felucca only, I need to disagree. Most of the players in Ultima Online prefer the Trammel ruleset, not the Felucca one and this includes players who may want to play a Rogue albeit, for PvM and not PvP, necessarily....
So, limiting the use of a Rogue character to only the Felucca facet, would take away to those players who, instead, prefer the Trammel ruleset, the pssibility to enjoy playing a Rogue character, if they so wish.
Each and every "ability" in Ultima Online should have a "unique" ability to get to some highly valuable items only accessable to THAT Profession, of course upon reaching the high end of the training for that given Profession.
This way, each and every Profession would have their "unique" ways at making wealth which they ONLY can make to then use that wealth for their spending needs in Ultima Online.
Otherwise, if we have Professions which can make uber millions of gold and Professions which can only make too little, of course that inbalances among Professions would be all over the place...
As I said, I see it as an issue of Balance.
I could make a couple hundred K an hour (Siege) using rogue skills if I wanted to. I don't because PvM stealing isn't really my thing, but I could. I'm not going to tell you how because I would hate to spoil the fun you might have trying to figure it out. If you are looking for an easy way to make gold, go make a sampire and leave the rogues alone.
I know that, if used well in PvP, a Rogue character can possibly make, if lucky and they find the right Target, good gold with items stolen from players although, it remains to be seen if the time invested in doing that in the end is comparable, as far as profitability goes, with those players who, instead, spend their in-game time doing the Roof or similars....
My point is another, and more addresses the playability (and profitability) of a Rogue character in PvM.
Since stealing out of players is out of the question, what remains is hitting Town and Dungeon crates, stealing from Monsters and from the Zealots in Exodus, and the items which spawn to be stolen....
Considering how the stealables have been for long taken away by scripters, pretty much, how even the "rare" items (which by the way are a very rare steal...) do not receive much appeal from players and, thus, have no market so much that players who happen to steal them turn them in for Clean Up points, how stealing from the Zealots other then for the Exodus keys (another quite very rare steal, by the way... and also in direct competition with the keys being craftable....) seems to me quite pointless for the very little and scarce loot it provides (mostly little gold, rarely some nrmal gems, 5 or 6, and ultra rarely 1 ML resource, once in a blue moon 2.....), and how Town and Dungeon chests, even the highest level ones, look to give just very basic stuff totally blown by the Legendary drops which any higher end Monster would provide, I frankly do not see what would be the point of playing a Rogue in PvM as things stand now in Ultima Online....
And, apparently, my thinking is not much far away from that of the Developers if I then read this Post from Kyronix.... https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/31835/#Comment_31835
@Kyronix says ..... "They also are only attainable by thieves - a profession that is increasingly finding itself with less and less to do."
And, frankly, I wholeheartedly and totally agree with him on that.
I was directing the lol at you giving popps hell. Nothing I said was directed toward you at all babe.