Thoughts on Bots

firecfirec Posts: 34
edited December 19 in General Discussions

Just to summarize… My past few days playing Ultima have been AMAZING. It’s honestly like I am playing a brand new game, something I didn’t feel was possible. I even went and pvp’d against a guy who used to absolutely dominate me, and I held my own (he still won handily cuz I have NO idea what pvping actually is, but at least this time it actually felt like a battle and not just something I had to immediately stop what I was doing and run from).

 

For context, I play on Atlantic.

This is the first time I have been able to play the game, in any capacity, with little to no lag since I came back to the game about 3 years ago. I did a bit of thinking, I did a bit of investigating, and I spent a bit of time inside the lions den (the *** discord server), and I spent a bit of time looking at a slightly older version of the *** client’s code – which is on GitHub. There’s a lot of fear – from EVERYONE, there’s a lot of anxiety, finger pointing, blaming, negativity, and most of all, an insane amount of division amongst our players.

 

After experiencing the game WITHOUT the players who are using that client, the lag was GONE. It wasn’t just at events, or semi populated areas, it was everywhere. So, being the inquisitive person I am, I wanted to find out why.

 

The TLDR is this: Using **** and it’s “features” is acting like a DDoS attack on the live servers. It is literally breaking the servers.

 

Do I expect the average player, or user of **** to understand this? Absolutely not. They were shown a glimpse of power, which other people had already been using, and were drawn in by the allure of being able to do things in a better way than the average player.

 

The simplest way to explain it is this. The UO client you run on your computer subscribes to the server to play on. Within each client, you do things, like opening your backpack, opening a door, toggling attack, putting on a piece of gear, moving an item in the world, casting a spell on a client. There is an upper limit on what the client can support in terms of sending data to the server, and thus an upper limit on the information the server sends back to you. MOST actions in CC/EC/CUO are limited to a few actions at once (many of you might be familiar with the phrase “You must wait to perform another action”). This limit of actions is 100% on the client side, and not the server. This in and of itself is very, very crucial, and one of the primary reasons **** has an advantage. The packets being sent from *** are able to include *MORE* actions than a human would ever be able to do. There are built in restrictions, disallowing users from doing specific back to back actions, and some actions are given different priority, but the basics of it are as simple as that. Not to mention, knowing which ports to and addresses to sniff and the fact that your password is stored un an unencrtypted way, everyone using *** was willingly handing their password and account information to this guy HotRide.

 

Another aspect of a game, or any simulation, runs on a timing system, or as some people know it a “tick”. Each tick, a certain amount of action and data is transferred between the client and the server.

 

An example would be this. A person in an approved client sees a skeleton they want to attack. They toggle their war on, they walk over to it, and they wait to see if they hit. They wait to see if they need to drink a potion. They wait to see if they need to move. They WAIT. The only interactions happen when the user themselves decide to take an action, and only then is the server pinged for data.

 

Now lets examine that in ***, the same basic example. The script detects that there is a nearby hostile that the script is specifically searching for, by querying for all nearby targetable enemies and parses that data. It then makes requests for information about the unit, including hot bars, and determines if it should proceed forward. Movement commands are issued, followed by more checking to see if the hostile is within range or not (more querying the server). Each tick, the **** client is now determining and parsing, requesting tons more data. Have I lost too much health? Have I lost too much mana? Have I lost too much stamina? Is there a better enemy to move to? Which ability do I run next? All of these decisions are based on packets received from the server, which are issued and requested at MUCH greater levels than a standard user, in front of a standard client.

The order of magnitude and levels of stress that a scripter is putting on the server compared to a regular player is insane.

 

These groups of entitled cheaters were breaking the game. Whether they knew it or not, the result is the same. They were causing extraordinary amounts of packets to be sent to and from the server and their clients, and as such, ruining the experience for all of the people who were NOT using ****.

 

Now, those players are players and lovers of UO, for one reason or another. And they have supported these games – as many of us all have. From the sound of it, most of them want to “take their ball and go home” as I have noted previously. However…

 

I believe that Broadsword / Bonnie / Messanna / Kyronix / EA / circumstances / whatever you want to say, did them a disservice by allowing these clients to be used for SO LONG and so prolifically. It is their responsibility to retain them as customers – if they wish to do so. SOME of them have decided to attempt to make the other clients work, however begrudgingly. This would be the ideal solution, for everybody involved. Any macros or scripts they build with the existing clients would then be their own creations, and PVP, farming, PVM… whatever it is, would be entirely something they contributed to in order to create and enhance their experience.

 

There are however, the majority of these people who are NOT going to even attempt to play normally, and need / want their scripts. MY PROPOSED SOLUTION FOR THEM…

 

Would be to open their own shard, in which other clients are allowed to be used. Make it something that things cannot go onto or off the server, and allow whatever nonsense these people want to use. I’m not exactly sure how you would handle getting things TO the shard, but in this way… They could script to their hearts content, without disturbing other players who use the game without using *** or other cheating clients.

 

My theory would be this…. Those players, who have cheated for all these years – if they ever went to a shard like that, would quickly lose interest, as they no longer hold any advantages over a person who played the game through regular means.

 

Anyhow, those are my thoughts on this whole thing, it’s an incredibly bold move on managements part, and genuinely, I hope we find a way, as a community of people who love this crappy 27 year old game, to find a way to move forward. Together.

One other thing I feel should be done… I feel, if the BS team ever does decide to offer an olive branch, to return to the fold and these user’s reject it… Burn their houses down. All their stuff inside. Then ban the accounts.

If I need to edit this post so that it can stay up, please feel free to let me know how.


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Comments

  • KroDuKKroDuK Posts: 698
    edited December 14
    Open their own official, free client shard.. genius idea!
    But the problem is.. if these guy were real PvPer and not only cheaters.. they would have join an illegal server already.. the problem is they NEEDED that unfair advantage to PvP.. their EGO needed it.. not sure how they will feel playing exclusively vs others frame skipper.

    But yeah great idea, why not.. transfer them on their own cockroaches frame skipping server.. where no one control his character and everyone does the tchou tchou train in PvP.


    And from all that I learn doing a Vendor Search was DDOSing the servers  ;)
    So rather than recognise the effort the botters went to, to set all that up - for the benefit of the players, to help get certain items, something you could never be bothered to do, you would rather drag people backwards to your neanderthal world?
    -UO official forums, brought to you by BoardSword studio
  • TheoTheo Posts: 208
    What they should have done is never invested 4 years in New Legacy and instead shored up the classic client with many of the features people go to other clients for and add in some real security to the log in so you cannot log in with other clients. Only the UO approved client. It literally can’t be that hard to lock it down and turn off other clients.  From there encrypt the communications between client and server and the other scripting engines break too.  

    I can’t believe my subscription dollars paid for new legacy meanwhile I can’t get an alphabetic sort in a bod book or a search feature in a jewelry box. 
  • SkettSkett Posts: 1,604
    edited December 18
    Theo said:
    What they should have done is never invested 4 years in New Legacy and instead shored up the classic client with many of the features people go to other clients for and add in some real security to the log in so you cannot log in with other clients. Only the UO approved client. It literally can’t be that hard to lock it down and turn off other clients.  From there encrypt the communications between client and server and the other scripting engines break too.  

    I can’t believe my subscription dollars paid for new legacy meanwhile I can’t get an alphabetic sort in a bod book or a search feature in a jewelry box. 


    this ^

     ive said that many times over the last few years
  • KingKing Posts: 95
    ^^ and as I mentioned on another topic!

    This is the first time in years that they’ve finally addressed the outdated 1999 client—and they did it poorly, in my opinion. They released something in beta that, as others have pointed out, seems worse than what people in their basements have created. Then there’s New Legacy (NL), which, honestly, no one asked for. It took over three years to release after being announced as the “great comeback of UO.”

    If you look back at many posts from both sides—whether you’re PvP or PvM—it’s clear people were asking the same question: why not fix what’s broken before releasing something new? But the past is the past, and now we’re in this situation with a third-party client that has existed for over 10 years. Now, suddenly, they decide, “no more”?

    Don’t get me wrong—the web client has potential, but it still has a long way to go. The developers have nothing to do with it, if I understand correctly, so we’re relying on a third party to fix things. If we could have civil conversations, I’m sure we could come to some kind of compromise, like making the A, B, C, and O clients available with certain restrictions.

    But instead of working together, people just create 10, 20, 30 threads on the same topic and attack each other. That’s easier, right? Plus, it generates more clicks!


  • KroDuKKroDuK Posts: 698
    edited December 18
    King said:
    But instead of working together, people just create 10, 20, 30 threads on the same topic and attack each other. That’s easier, right? Plus, it generates more clicks!
    It's because I don't want to work with a cheater.. they just need a ban world server.. if everything u say about what shall not be name is true.. u'd LOVED a server for illegal clients.. ship them all on a single server with no transfer shield, so their bots can compete with others bots while frame skipper compete with other frame skipper... problem solve.. everyone happy!

    No need to play pretend anymore.
    So rather than recognise the effort the botters went to, to set all that up - for the benefit of the players, to help get certain items, something you could never be bothered to do, you would rather drag people backwards to your neanderthal world?
    -UO official forums, brought to you by BoardSword studio
  • ArmyArmy Posts: 44
    I think the posters here should make all the rules, and ban who they want. We can crown forum devs. Since the UO devs don’t interact with customers. Maybe you guys/gals can
  • PawainPawain Posts: 10,267
    These new accounts get more barmy with each post.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • KroDuKKroDuK Posts: 698
    I mean.. as much as I hate them and their agenda.. it was funny.
    So rather than recognise the effort the botters went to, to set all that up - for the benefit of the players, to help get certain items, something you could never be bothered to do, you would rather drag people backwards to your neanderthal world?
    -UO official forums, brought to you by BoardSword studio
  • So strangely , before i only used uo razor Assistive software to train skills on my ej account then had been banned account , but now i see this event have many auto k mobs robots of ej account (There are so many robots that they take over the entire game activity, completely affecting the normal play of us monthly paying players) then these script robots' ej account can continue to perform these automated scripts safely , very strange game management
  • SuperfrogSuperfrog Posts: 102
    In Soviet Russia, The game plays you.
  • I don't live in Russia and I'm not Russian. Why do you associate this game activity cheating robot issue with Russia??
  • PawainPawain Posts: 10,267
    I don't live in Russia and I'm not Russian. Why do you associate this game activity cheating robot issue with Russia??
    They are not EJ accounts.  EJ accounts would get account bound drops and rewards with their name on the reward.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • SkettSkett Posts: 1,604
    what happens to the ursine if an ej account claims 1 then pops and trades it ? @Pawain
  • SuperfrogSuperfrog Posts: 102
    I don't live in Russia and I'm not Russian. Why do you associate this game activity cheating robot issue with Russia??
    You sure are reading a lot into a statement that wasn’t even in reply to you. To explain what my in general, not directed at you statement means. See this page. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Soviet_Russia
  • CookieCookie Posts: 1,685
    Superfrog said:
    I don't live in Russia and I'm not Russian. Why do you associate this game activity cheating robot issue with Russia??
    You sure are reading a lot into a statement that wasn’t even in reply to you. To explain what my in general, not directed at you statement means. See this page. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Soviet_Russia
    I like it, very clever humour. :)
  • FenriswolfFenriswolf Posts: 125
    from what im seeing the multibots, static archer groups and trains of bots have gone from Europa but there are definitely some single bots still there which are kindof harmless as they are so rubbish. They dont run from multiple paras so just die, and are still running around towns 10mins after its moved on looking for stuff to kill
  • KroDuKKroDuK Posts: 698
    edited December 19
    So strangely , before i only used uo razor Assistive software to train skills on my ej account then had been banned account , but now i see this event have many auto k mobs robots of ej account (There are so many robots that they take over the entire game activity, completely affecting the normal play of us monthly paying players) then these script robots' ej account can continue to perform these automated scripts safely , very strange game management
    Sadly all those bots are sponsor by Boardsword studio, since they are paid account.. they won't get ban.

    On Ultima Online under BS management you could sub 20 accounts run them 24/7.. the game plays by itself while the "operator" plays on himself.

    meanwhile the head of the studio is hidding since july.. since this post: https://uo.com/2024/07/22/the-war-on-unapproved-3rd-party-programs/

    So far this post is nothing else than a very bad PR for the studio; painting them as failures that refuse to apply their own TOS in game, only on forums, instead of just being a bots friendly company.. now.. They could still be consider as bot/cheater friendly company cuz of their failures on top of their refusal to apply the in game rules on paid account.
    It feels like she only pretend to be at war, like a politic would do.. meanwhile cockroaches and racism proliferate in game.. cuz GM's ain't doing poo poo.


    The best we can do is unsub and pressure EA.. cuz BS ain't it man.


    Cookie said:
    I like it, very clever humour. :)
     clever he said!   :D
    So rather than recognise the effort the botters went to, to set all that up - for the benefit of the players, to help get certain items, something you could never be bothered to do, you would rather drag people backwards to your neanderthal world?
    -UO official forums, brought to you by BoardSword studio
  • sibblesibble Posts: 190
    firec said:

    The TLDR is this: Using **** and it’s “features” is acting like a DDoS attack on the live servers. It is literally breaking the servers.



    ON TOP OF THAT

    YOU HAVE PEOPLE WRITING CODE (SCRIPTS) FOR THE FIRST TIME AND TESTING ON UO PRODUCTION SERVERS

    INFINITE LOOPS, LITTLE TO NO DELAYS, HELLO? IS ANYBODY LISTENING?
    "everything looks stupid" UO feedback 2024
  • The "war on third-party clients" is over and Broadsword lost horribly. They didn't have the stones to actually ban anyone for literally anything, so nothing they did really mattered, and they were stomped out in a matter of days.

    As far as I'm concerned @Kyronix and pals should never respond on this subject ever again. Next time someone is ranting about bots @Community Manager shouldn't even try telling people to page a GM like that's a real thing that works. Just sit in shameful silence, patch some new ToT crap in now and then, and make sure to leave enough room for the bots that the players left at least don't lag too much.
  • SkettSkett Posts: 1,604
    edited December 19
    I'm pretty sure you're getting a lump of coal for Xmas  :|
  • PawainPawain Posts: 10,267
    edited December 19
    Skett said:
    what happens to the ursine if an ej account claims 1 then pops and trades it ? @ Pawain
    Probably the same as an account holder.  Most players want to buy the statue.  Not buy the pet and have to bond it.  Do you ever hear anyone on Atlantic trying to sell a popped Ostard or Bear?

    Most not on Atlantic offer to sell drops, unless they bought something by accident and don't want it anymore.  There are the reward items on Atl,  some are 175M still, some cheaper.  Looks like Atl drops are at 1M each now.

    You cant put these statue pets on Magencia vendors.
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • SkettSkett Posts: 1,604
    edited December 19
    actually Ive seen people selling the ostards on atl popped not often tho

    I found 3 on a vendor on pac for 75mil each about 4 months ago  ;)
  • stevensteven Posts: 120
    Well they ban my IP address so I can't post from my computer I have to log into my phone without the internet on. But we've asked this forever and we begged and pleaded with them for help and customer support and their responses if you ask or cost too many waves they'll ban your IP from the site. Thinking of stop you from asking for help and trying to report the scammers. But don't forget hundreds of people will get on here and say all the butters are okay but don't forget they have hundreds of accounts that hold the their houses they illegally place and they get free game time to get these houses. And these hundreds of accounts are the same person from the same IP address. And it makes it look like you're the crazy one when you want to report the scammers and boters. I really think customer support is over for uo. I really think this is going to be the end of UO. When we don't get help and we report that the scammers and the boters were out of hand. And they just ban you from the forms your IP so you can't post no more. That's the day of the botters win. And it is a little insane
  • KroDuKKroDuK Posts: 698
    edited December 19
    @Steven I know some company have automated system.. example I got ban from tESO (by a robot) Cuz i fill 3 bug report in the same hours.. they apologize and offered me 14 days free sub.. my account was flagged for abusing the report system.

    I never reported a bug after that.. I was abusing them instead  :D
    So rather than recognise the effort the botters went to, to set all that up - for the benefit of the players, to help get certain items, something you could never be bothered to do, you would rather drag people backwards to your neanderthal world?
    -UO official forums, brought to you by BoardSword studio
  • PawainPawain Posts: 10,267
     :D  Dude thinks they banned his IP because he has trouble logging into the forum.  WE all have to log in 50 times for it to stick. 
    Focus on what you can do, not what you can't.
  • SkettSkett Posts: 1,604
    @steven ;  Try FireFox it always works
  • stevensteven Posts: 120
    Going to have to do Firefox. It's the point that they banned me from their Google IP that I can't use it on there site when I'm paying person for five accounts. And I'm cutting down the three I may even cut down I would love to do it to two but I don't want to go down to three. But as a paying member of the community would be nice if they actually listen to us once instead of just ban us and move on.
  • Victim_Of_SiegeVictim_Of_Siege Posts: 2,160
    edited December 20
    Pawain said:
     :D  Dude thinks they banned his IP because he has trouble logging into the forum.  WE all have to log in 50 times for it to stick. 

    I haven't had to log in more than once a day for quite some time. Y'all still having that issue? 
    A Goblin, a Gargoyle, and a Drow walk into a bar . . .

    Never be afraid to challenge the status quo

  • FenriswolfFenriswolf Posts: 125
    i found the staying logged into the forum or getting the error message when trying to post in the forum relates to having multiple tabs open. If you go to uo.com then forum then recent discussions etc etc it tends to open in seperate tabs...close all the tabs so you only have 1 open and it tends to work...
  • ArmyArmy Posts: 44
    Pawain said:
     :D  Dude thinks they banned his IP because he has trouble logging into the forum.  WE all have to log in 50 times for it to stick. 
    Imagine that…they can’t even bring their forums to 2024.
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