Showcasing "unbreakable" nerve

LearnMe

https://streamable.com/4xaa3v

I'm sure I'm violating some rule by posting this vid in response to something in a closed thread, but I think it's important to qualify the level of understanding (or lack thereof) that some of the most vocal and opinionated posters on the forums have.  Now, this isn't an attempt at attacking any individual and I'm not looking to reopen a discussion about mechanics.  If someone would like me to post MORE proof, I'll take even more time to record what I'd hope 99% of the player base should know seeing as it's one of the most used specials of the past 14 years and has documented patch notes that say it's breakable.  

Basically, recorded a guildmate nerve striking me and me double clicking a trapped box to break the nerve every single time.  As further proof of the concept, another guildmate cursed me right after one nerve to show it doesn't even take damage to break it.  For context of why I bothered doing this, some players have been adamant in arguing that nerve strike is "mostly unbreakable" which makes zero sense. 

If game dev's actually do view these threads and take player feedback into consideration, I hope they understand which players speak from the perspective of an actual, active pvper that understands and uses the mechanics they speak on versus players that just theorize in their imaginations.

Cookie

I completely understand your reasons and logic for doing this.

I am glad you have made this post.

I have myself been completely stunned, and really annoyed by (the inaccuracy of) some of the opinions being presented on these forums to the Devs. It's the fact they are not based on any sort of reality. I have really held myself back in terms of completely losing it - mainly because I'm getting older and all that, and it's not a good look to be flaming youngsters out of existence

I never knew it was that bad. I also don't want to go on about it.

CovenantX

LearnMe said:

https://streamable.com/4xaa3v

I'm sure I'm violating some rule by posting this vid in response to something in a closed thread, but I think it's important to qualify the level of understanding (or lack thereof) that some of the most vocal and opinionated posters on the forums have. 

If game dev's actually do view these threads and take player feedback into consideration, I hope they understand which players speak from the perspective of an actual, active pvper that understands and uses the mechanics they speak on versus players that just theorize in their imaginations.

 the  "Violating some rules" comment goes without saying, I don't blame you, nothing seems to be deterring it, so I guess more power to you.   However, I do hope the moderators let this one slide because it's important.

How many tests did it take before you had 6 breakable nerves in a row?  I ask because it looks like you had been testing it for a while before you recorded that clip, but even if you did skip or cut it short. it doesn't matter,   I said it could just be rng, so the 'chance' may not be as high as it was in my experience.  

  https://streamable.com/zhsqr8

 It functions exactly the way I said it did, 2 pops of the box before I'm able to move, despite "you can move" message triggering twice..    I didn't feel it was necessary to spend much time testing it this time around considering it literally took one attempt to reproduce an unbroken stun.

it may be 50/50 chance, maybe more/less... that's RNG at it's best.

Cookie

The difference being, he did it by hand, and you used a macro, assuming you are both recording truthfully.

Are you sure there is not something wrong with your macro?

CovenantX

here's one demonstrating both breakables & unbreakable nerve strikes..

https://streamable.com/b8cbcs

as soon as I move, that's when the stun has either ended or has broken, as if there aren't "sparkles" showing you I'm staying stunned despite taking damage.

I think it's funny that you assume I have some kind of bias, and I don't mean to sound... like an A-hole here, but... I'm not posting any videos that would display a bias to further my agenda.

 I could only hope you didn't go out of your way to do just that, with some intention to push for mages (by gaining a 2-4s unbreakable stun) to become even better like it seems.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this, but I'm not trying to hide my skepticism at all.  hopefully you notice that.

@LearnMe ;  I'd like you to explain why you think a sword mastery required 2s stun +30 damage hit from a viking sword would be even remotely "OP" compared to a bokuto on top of the other perks you get with bushido, even if parry/evade were nerfed into oblivion. That's what I want to hear.

 Also, it's been bugging me for a while... (7+ years) why does 120.0 weapon skill have any chance to miss another player that has 0 parry and 0 weapon skill (20 JoaT) at all?   it used to be 70.0 weapon skill above your opponent gave you 100% chance to hit them with each swing assuming you could keep within attack range.....  RNG shouldn't even have a chance to factor at that point.   that's just another thing giving the edge to mages.

Edit:  @Cookie ;  I hope you appreciate the 'arch-cure' demonstration, while I was bored trying to prove this moot point.  clearly my timing isn't 100% accurate, but it didn't need to be... did it?

CovenantX

Cookie said:

The difference being, he did it by hand, and you used a macro, assuming you are both recording truthfully.

Are you sure there is not something wrong with your macro?

    I used UOAssist, trap box macro (the same macro in both recordings).  It's sad that I have to go this far to prove, that someone is lying... and um... 'hint', it isn't me.

Edit: bedtime for this guy, we'll spitball this tomorrow.

Cookie

Understood - you can get rid of UOA macro now you know - it is dealt with in Classic Client - and I always find Classic Client better. I seem to never miss using Classic Client inbuilt Macro.

I think it is possible with UOA macros (for them to mistime and lose one) - to lose one - I used to always do that, it may be more an issue with UOA macros for you.

I myself have stopped using UOA, and play purely in Classic Client now, it deals with most things - except Supernova, which I would like to be built in.

sibble

Which shard and what is/was your ping to the server you were testing on?
(for reference)

Also, can you do test without UOA?

The reason I ask is because this message pops up when you hit the box:

at the exact time where the "you can move" should be.

Theory: UOA is evaluating contents of the container causing client-side lag.

LearnMe

This is from pub 46 patch notes back in 2007.  Nerve strike paralysis is now breakable on hit...does it say "sometimes breakable" or "may break" on hit? Nope.

Here is a second video demonstrating 20 in a row.  I was going to go for 30+, but I don't want to pay to reup on streamable for a bigger download size.  Want me to do it in multiple areas?  Multiple characters?  I've clicked the box to do it, shown even a non damage curse can break it, and have shown 20 and 8 in a row (separate videos).  You don't really think I sat there between 10 second stun immunities over and over fishing for 20 in a row do you?  Can we agree 20 is sufficient to demonstrate it's breakable every single time?https://streamable.com/555d8q

George

In my experience when a box doesn't break a nerve strike, it's because the box was used too quickly and UO is very subjective to problematic latency, both with high and low pings.

Also, @CovenantX could you try the test again but this time without Cheat Engine? It could be a contributing factor to inconsistent results.

before the QQ: i'm not bashing, it's just that the damage numbers over your head and how quickly they fade aren't modifiable, unlike speech, words of power, incoming names, etc.

LearnMe

And Cov, I've already explained why nothing beside wrestling should have it.  Take a bardiche instead for a more practical answer, a weapon YOU suggested before.  Now I can perform an unbreakable stun and dismount in the next swing.  As demonstrated above and according to uo patch notes, nerve strike is breakable...every single time.  That's the difference.  

Not the point of the thread though.  I just want to qualify people's opinions on mechanics by demonstrating a lack of knowledge and apparently lack of execution according to your testing.  The fact you even have to "test" one of the most used specials in the game after 15 years should say enough in and of itself.  Meanwhile, players are in here that actually use and play against these mechanics on a daily basis and post to see change only to have a certain handful of "players" attempt to drown them out.  So when an easy opportunity to prove how little they know comes along, I'll take it.

Another example, I had Higgs try to tell me in discord that mass sleep puts someone on stun timer and therefore you can't sleep then para/nerve someone.  That was his reasoning for why I could box out of a nerve lol.  Sleep isn't a paralyze.  Sleep doesn't put you on paralyze timer.  If you were active participants in pvp over the course of the last two years this would be obvious.  We have players on our side and against us that run mystic bokuto purely for that combo.  Readers should know the caliber of player that information is coming from here.

CovenantX

sibble said:

Which shard and what is/was your ping to the server you were testing on?
(for reference)

Also, can you do test without UOA?

The reason I ask is because this message pops up when you hit the box:

at the exact time where the "you can move" should be.

Theory: UOA is evaluating contents of the container causing client-side lag.

  LS, ping 16, UOAssist I've tested it & CC without UOA -using 'last object' to pop the box.. same results....I have not tested it in EC or any third-party programs.

Yoshi

"How do you get the roast pig to spin at 3 x speed?"

CovenantX

George said:

In my experience when a box doesn't break a nerve strike, it's because the box was used too quickly and UO is very subjective to problematic latency, both with high and low pings.

Also, @ CovenantX could you try the test again but this time without Cheat Engine? It could be a contributing factor to inconsistent results.

before the QQ: i'm not bashing, it's just that the damage numbers over your head and how quickly they fade aren't modifiable, unlike speech, words of power, incoming names, etc.

    Sure that's valid.  there are times it breaks earlier than it does in other attempts.

 

I have an overclocked processor, but the results are exactly the same on my other PC which does not,  the only inconsistency is the time in which nerve is broken... as it was with prior tests.

 

LearnMe said:

And Cov, I've already explained why nothing beside wrestling should have it.  Take a bardiche instead for a more practical answer, a weapon YOU suggested before.  Now I can perform an unbreakable stun and dismount in the next swing.  As demonstrated above and according to uo patch notes, nerve strike is breakable...every single time.  That's the difference.  

Not the point of the thread though.  I just want to qualify people's opinions on mechanics by demonstrating a lack of knowledge and apparently lack of execution according to your testing.  The fact you even have to "test" one of the most used specials in the game after 15 years should say enough in and of itself.  Meanwhile, players are in here that actually use and play against these mechanics on a daily basis and post to see change only to have a certain handful of "players" attempt to drown them out.  So when an easy opportunity to prove how little they know comes along, I'll take it.

  What's the problem with the bardiche?   I can't tell you the last time I saw someone use one...

 oh, nah I can.  @lynk on GL in CREW about 5 years ago, around the time when Parry-mages were just becoming the meta cause global loot was 'new' at the time.

  so you couldn't just 2s stun (wrestling) then bola?  cause it seems like you're saying it shouldn't be possible for a dexer to do similar things.

The main difference would be the damage coming from the weapon.     the recent 'dismount' change narrows the window to dismount, though it's still pretty easy, as long as the stun isn't broken.     people still do it with riding swipe, even though riding swipe is always 100% breakable.   so it would be made a slight bit more consistent, since boxing wouldn't break it as a 'stun'  all it does is make the weapon more effective.   

   you could just avoid being dismounted by being on foot when the dismount is attempted. it would still be equally effective regardless of being stunned or para'd.     and of course, there's always a chance to miss anyway at 120 skill 45 dci vs 120 skill vs 45 hci.. 50/50 ~45/55 chance if the target is under HLD. (without parry).   

   Devs could just prevent paralyzing blow (weapon/wrestle special versions of 'paralyze' only) from being broken on self-inflicting damage, it would have a very similar result.

  I believe mysticism spells are unable to be interrupted by self inflicted damage (though I haven't tried it in many years) so a similar mechanic already exists.  -it'll be easy to see if that has changed, i rarely play a mystic though.

George

CovenantX said:

George said:

In my experience when a box doesn't break a nerve strike, it's because the box was used too quickly and UO is very subjective to problematic latency, both with high and low pings.

Also, @ CovenantX could you try the test again but this time without Cheat Engine? It could be a contributing factor to inconsistent results.

before the QQ: i'm not bashing, it's just that the damage numbers over your head and how quickly they fade aren't modifiable, unlike speech, words of power, incoming names, etc.

    Sure that's valid.  there are times it breaks earlier than it does in other attempts.

 

I have an overclocked processor, but the results are exactly the same on my other PC which does not,  the only inconsistency is the time in which nerve is broken... as it was with prior tests.

Is that why on your deathstriker's client it's footstep sounds are normal, and incoming names and text stay on it's screen the default amount of time, but your other chr has sped up damage text and footstep sounds? Because that'd be more indicative of something like a Cheat Engine with a specific client selected and the "speedhack" option enabled, rather than an overclocked CPU which would be affecting both of the clients, and doesn't actually work the way you're insisting it does at all.

CovenantX

both of them sounds were exactly the same...  the Dser was not using UOAssist.

I didn't hit my other character in the video, but why would i bother lying about this?

 I kinda feel like there's some more just grasping at straws going on again, but whatever floats your boat.

in your previous post you acknowledge nerve doesn't break sometimes, when you 'box' too soon. that is what I'm referring too, but the point is, you guys seem to purposefully  lose sight of that because it goes against your argument.

  it should break no matter the timing, as long as you're 'stunned/paralyzed' when the 'break is attempted.    It's not the case with any other specials in the game that I'm aware of.  

George

That's a good question, why are you?

It just taints your contribution to stick with the results of a client that is being influenced by a CE. Like I said, I'm not on a mission to bash you for it, but if you're going to try and make a "credibility check" maybe you should do it in a manner that yields credible results.

I'm not even asking you to admit to it, I'm sure it's embarrassing enough to get caught out like that, hypocrisy usually is. It's just you already went through a small amount of effort to begin with, why not do it the right way instead?

And again, what you're experiencing is from something called latency, doing things quickly and having a low latency in a game that was designed for dial up and slow connections is going to have inconsistent results between server and client interaction when you factor in low latency and, we'll call it "magical outside influences" together. It's really not a difficult concept to wrap your head around, I would think someone who inaccurately uses the excuse of an overclocked CPU might at the very least understand the basic idea behind latency and how it works in UO.

CovenantX

   Do you want me to record the same thing using a different machine?

George said:

In my experience when a box doesn't break a nerve strike,

  That's all I was looking for.  acknowledgement from an opposing view.

Cookie

CovenantX said:

  it should break no matter the timing, as long as you're 'stunned/paralyzed' when the 'break is attempted.    It's not the case with any other specials in the game that I'm aware of.  

So we are admitting my timing is way better than yours ?

As Ive never had a fail, and you fail 20% of the time ?

{I genuinely think it is lag issues, or the UOA timing messing up btw}.

I don't get that issue in CC macro.

CovenantX

 @George ;

   You (and others) seem to have implied nerve-strike  is no different (in terms of the stun/para mechanic) than any other special with paralyze affects,  I point out that it's not the same because it's unbreakable at times.  it's irrelevant if latency causes the inconsistency, because it's very easily reproduced at any time of day by anyone and no other similar mechanics function that way, that's the difference.

My point has been proven. everyone can test it themselves to see or they can watch.  whatever you like.

 

  If a 2s unbreakable stun replaced Para-blow on all 2h-weapons, it just makes those weapons useful.   still requires 2 hits in a row to benefit from it, there in lies the reason parry has got to be toned down.   the chance is too low for any amount of multiple hits in succession, let alone enough to get the kill.

CovenantX

Cookie said:

CovenantX said:

  it should break no matter the timing, as long as you're 'stunned/paralyzed' when the 'break is attempted.    It's not the case with any other specials in the game that I'm aware of.  

So we are admitting my timing is way better than yours ?

As Ive never had a fail, and you fail 20% of the time ?

{I genuinely think it is lag issues, or the UOA timing messing up btw}.

I don't get that issue in CC macro.

   Hehehe.  I never claimed I was perfect, just saying some things can be easily done if you try hard enough.

   It's not a UOA problem, because the box macro went off.  I took damage, while under the para-effect, it didn't break, did the same without UOA.    the only point I'm making is that it IS unbreakable sometimes, that's all I had to prove,

 I haven't tested it with any unapproved programs, I would have a hard time believing it would be any different with either of them. as well.   but I do acknowledge, it'd be possible to script it, so the box is triggered at the right time, every time.   -just another reason the rules need enforced.

George

@CovenantX now how about you "test" shield bash and paralyzing blow also? The mechanic of nerve is that it is not a stun, it is a paralyze and has been so since it was changed in 2007.

I fail to see where your point has been proven, so far. All I have seen is a questionable video that proves what we have stated about latency. Or at least what I have stated about latency. Just in case you're not aware, which I imagine absolutely isn't the case because I'm sure you're a very active PvPer(?), but long ago people who used box scripts (and I'm not saying you do!) used to complain about the unreliability of trapped boxes and how they "didn't always work" but it turned out that their scripts were using the boxes too quickly, so it would require two uses to break a paralyze, which was apparently resolved by them using a really small delay, I wonder why? Just something to think on for a second there.

And as for your 2h-weapon logic, and why something that doesn't exist (2s STUN, not PARA, STUN.) shouldn't dictate nerfing something that does exist (Parry influenced by bushido). And this is crazy BUT. Imagine that instead of giving it to dexers who can evade and immediately use specials off of it, but that the prerequisite for this 2s STUN (NOT PARA. STUN.) was that you couldn't have anything in your hands at all in order to attempt it, and that it required 80 additional skill points on top of the 100-120 wrestling, which means no evasion, no chance to parry, a requirement to re-arm any weapon as a follow up, etc. Pretty crazy idea, right?

bunny

you guys are weird.

nerve has a baked in immunity to damage to account for how nerve strike applies damage, the bonus nerve damage is AFTER the paralyze, it was designed this way so that nerve strike doesnt break itself, it lasts for like 1/4 of a second and is nowhere near game breaking. fix your scripts already you apes.

CovenantX

George said:

And as for your 2h-weapon logic, and why something that doesn't exist (2s STUN, not PARA, STUN.) shouldn't dictate nerfing something that does exist (Parry influenced by bushido). And this is crazy BUT. Imagine that instead of giving it to dexers who can evade and immediately use specials off of it, but that the prerequisite for this 2s STUN (NOT PARA. STUN.) was that you couldn't have anything in your hands at all in order to attempt it, and that it required 80 additional skill points on top of the 100-120 wrestling, which means no evasion, no chance to parry, a requirement to re-arm any weapon as a follow up, etc. Pretty crazy idea, right?

    you mean... 20 more skill points than the minimum you could run with wrestling over using a weapon..

   I'm sure you're referring to 100-120 wrestling and 80+ anatomy for stun. (as required by the 'stun' recently fixed)

 

you need 120 weapon skill (anything less isn't worth it from a dexer -perspective) & 60 tactics to use para-blow.   so at minimum it would be +20 more skill (that's if we go with anatomy being required in the first place)..   my 2s stun suggestion for everyone removed the 'anatomy' for wrestling to perform a 'stun', I don't really even care about the 'hands-free' part of it.       

what I care about as it relates to the 'stun' was that a 4s stun being far too long for any template, especially for something with ranged offense (mages mostly)...  & Parry being toned down on casters.

My suggestion in full:

•  2s stun available to all melee skills (Fencing, Macing Swords & Wrestling)
•  Requires the 'weapon skill' mastery to be active, - which causes 'Paralyzing Blow" to function as a 'Stunning Blow".
  

 No anatomy or tactics skill required for wrestling to perform stun-punch.

 hands-free not required.

Parry chance reduced by 40-50%  if Magery or Chivalry => 50.0

LearnMe

CovenantX said:

 

LearnMe said:

And Cov, I've already explained why nothing beside wrestling should have it.  Take a bardiche instead for a more practical answer, a weapon YOU suggested before.  Now I can perform an unbreakable stun and dismount in the next swing.  As demonstrated above and according to uo patch notes, nerve strike is breakable...every single time.  That's the difference.  

Not the point of the thread though.  I just want to qualify people's opinions on mechanics by demonstrating a lack of knowledge and apparently lack of execution according to your testing.  The fact you even have to "test" one of the most used specials in the game after 15 years should say enough in and of itself.  Meanwhile, players are in here that actually use and play against these mechanics on a daily basis and post to see change only to have a certain handful of "players" attempt to drown them out.  So when an easy opportunity to prove how little they know comes along, I'll take it.

  What's the problem with the bardiche?   I can't tell you the last time I saw someone use one...

 oh, nah I can.  @ lynk on GL in CREW about 5 years ago, around the time when Parry-mages were just becoming the meta cause global loot was 'new' at the time.

  so you couldn't just 2s stun (wrestling) then bola?  cause it seems like you're saying it shouldn't be possible for a dexer to do similar things.

The main difference would be the damage coming from the weapon.     the recent 'dismount' change narrows the window to dismount, though it's still pretty easy, as long as the stun isn't broken.     people still do it with riding swipe, even though riding swipe is always 100% breakable.   so it would be made a slight bit more consistent, since boxing wouldn't break it as a 'stun'  all it does is make the weapon more effective.   

   you could just avoid being dismounted by being on foot when the dismount is attempted. it would still be equally effective regardless of being stunned or para'd.     and of course, there's always a chance to miss anyway at 120 skill 45 dci vs 120 skill vs 45 hci.. 50/50 ~45/55 chance if the target is under HLD. (without parry).   

   Devs could just prevent paralyzing blow (weapon/wrestle special versions of 'paralyze' only) from being broken on self-inflicting damage, it would have a very similar result.

  I believe mysticism spells are unable to be interrupted by self inflicted damage (though I haven't tried it in many years) so a similar mechanic already exists.  -it'll be easy to see if that has changed, i rarely play a mystic though.

lol this guy.  What's the excuse for me showing it 20 times in a row?  Did I fish or edit that video too?  Am I just the luckiest player in the world?  I've used my box macro, I've double clicked the box, I've shown it broken by non damaging curse.  Give it a rest already.

Your above reply further demonstrates why I'm taking time to do this.  Do we have to run through every single weapon with paralyze? "When is the last time you saw a bardiche?" Does it matter when the last time I saw it was?  If you add an unbreakable stun to it you completely change the case for using one.  Wouldn't that be the point of giving weapons something new?  More reason to use them?  Why would I want to wrestle stun and bola someone for a 50/50 chance at best it lands, if they don't avoid it, and guarantees I'm on foot for 10 seconds?  

^ it's this line of thinking that show that these players aren't even participants in pvp.  Comparing being able to hit a dismount, while parrying and evading, with the ability to instantly remount if you miss to a bola with a several second wait, large opportunity to miss, and a guarantee that even if the bola is missed that the thrower is stuck on foot.  

And to rephrase the mysticism example because again you've misunderstood....your best buds reasoning for being able to break nerve strike was that "mass sleep" put you on stun timer.  In the same way you can't para blow someone on back to back swings, his poorly thought out reasoning was that mass sleep counted as a para, so the follow up nerve wouldn't para, therefore nothing to box out of.  This is what we're working with here.

LearnMe

You also still have refused to touch on why you will cry parry and evade constantly, but aren't in favor of an ability that will take away someone's ability to parry and evade while attempting it.  You're only argument is "SWORDS HAVE NERVE SO ALL WEPS SHOULD HAVE UNBREAKABLE STUN."

Seems odd that you don't seem to want to take the defensive abilities away from anyone, only add to their arsenal with this.

bunny

•  2s stun available to all melee skills (Fencing, Macing Swords & Wrestling)
•  Requires the 'weapon skill' mastery to be active, - which causes 'Paralyzing Blow" to function as a 'Stunning Blow".
  

 No anatomy or tactics skill required for wrestling to perform stun-punch.

 hands-free not required.

Parry chance reduced by 40-50%  if Magery or Chivalry => 50.0

no offense but this suggestion sucks. if anything just bake the stun punch into wrestling mastery and make it 2 seconds, then maybe the wrestling mastery might get used.

youre literally trying to demolish variety. each flavor of dexer has it's strengths and weaknesses, swords just happens to be the best when paired with bushido. thats just how it is so get over it. i mean, what next? "spears should have a ranged AI like bows because i want to throw a spear" "2h polearms should have a 2 tile range"?

reading through all of this, your suggestions are not in line with someone who's actively pvped in the last 5 years anywhere there is an established meta, or even a competitive pool to draw from. it's more in line with someone who got touched one too many time by a splinter curse dexer and now has an agenda against that particular template.

im not saying splinter X mages aren't strong and could be tuned a bit better, just saying your idea about stun sucks.

CovenantX

LearnMe said:

You also still have refused to touch on why you will cry parry and evade constantly, but aren't in favor of an ability that will take away someone's ability to parry and evade while attempting it.  You're only argument is "SWORDS HAVE NERVE SO ALL WEPS SHOULD HAVE UNBREAKABLE STUN."

Seems odd that you don't seem to want to take the defensive abilities away from anyone, only add to their arsenal with this.

   I did, a 4s stun is better offensively than what parry does for you defensively..

If you stun, wall/disarm, you have free-reign for however long you can successfully prevent a teleport from being cast.   in a group, well... the wall wouldn't be necessary because 4s should be plenty of time to kill someone that's incapacitated.

   the 2nd sentence claims I don't want to take the defensive abilities away from anyone?  what do you think a parry-nerf would do exactly, if it wasn't for that exact purpose?

 

   I don't mind a 2s stun being added to the arsenal,  but since para-blow for weapons is the same level of USELESSNESS as Wrestling's Para-blow.    they should just be changed to stun, to make them  useful.   

 Look at it this way.

a 2s stun can be taken advantage of by a mage because spells reliably hit, as long as they're not interrupted.... a stunned player won't be interrupting much of anything.  ok?

a 2s stun is RNG dependant for a dexer to benefit from it, because they always have a chance to miss, while the target is stunned.  

LearnMe

CovenantX said:

LearnMe said:

You also still have refused to touch on why you will cry parry and evade constantly, but aren't in favor of an ability that will take away someone's ability to parry and evade while attempting it.  You're only argument is "SWORDS HAVE NERVE SO ALL WEPS SHOULD HAVE UNBREAKABLE STUN."

Seems odd that you don't seem to want to take the defensive abilities away from anyone, only add to their arsenal with this.

   I did, a 4s stun is better offensively than what parry does for you defensively..

If you stun, wall/disarm, you have free-reign for however long you can successfully prevent a teleport from being cast.   in a group, well... the wall wouldn't be necessary because 4s should be plenty of time to kill someone that's incapacitated.

   the 2nd sentence claims I don't want to take the defensive abilities away from anyone?  what do you think a parry-nerf would do exactly, if it wasn't for that exact purpose?

 

   I don't mind a 2s stun being added to the arsenal,  but since para-blow for weapons is the same level of USELESSNESS as Wrestling's Para-blow.    they should just be changed to stun, to make them  useful.   

 Look at it this way.

a 2s stun can be taken advantage of by a mage because spells reliably hit, as long as they're not interrupted.... a stunned player won't be interrupting much of anything.  ok?

a 2s stun is RNG dependant for a dexer to benefit from it, because they always have a chance to miss, while the target is stunned.  

There is so much wrong with this...again.  How is a 4s stun relevant to any argument if you're advocating for a 2s stun?  That's a huge difference.  Why does it matter if any stun is better offensively than parry is defensively?  YOU CAN HAVE BOTH if it's implemented per your suggestion.  You literally don't have to weigh the options because you get both.  If it's an empty handed wrestle ability THEN you have to weigh offense vs defense. 

I think one of the main issues here is you're looking at it as a "para vs para" whereas I believe most players would look at it as para/disarm vs para/disarm/nerve/dismount/mortal/splinter/bleed/poison/frenzied whirlwind/armor ignore WHILE being able to parry and evade.  Maybe bunny is on to something.  Bows can hit armor ignore from 10 tiles, why doesn't my leafblade armor ignore from 10 tiles?  Seems unfair.

LearnMe

And by the way, the viking sword was relevant to my point because a base swing from it can hit upward of 30 before hit spell.  Seems illogical to compare a possible 45 damage unbreakable stun to a 1 damage wrestle stun.  Remember, I've already shown ya nerve is breakable every single time.

The_Higgs_1

LearnMe said:

You also still have refused to touch on why you will cry parry and evade constantly, but aren't in favor of an ability that will take away someone's ability to parry and evade while attempting it.  You're only argument is "SWORDS HAVE NERVE SO ALL WEPS SHOULD HAVE UNBREAKABLE STUN."

Seems odd that you don't seem to want to take the defensive abilities away from anyone, only add to their arsenal with this.

We did explain why its an issue to give mages more offense over dexxers cause its already unbalanced to where caster is 5 times then any 1-tile character.  Re-read the other discussion again.  Seems to me like your just ignoring posted facts and prove just to sell your side of the argument which is false.   We are trying to bring balance and more template diversity to pvp not making it worse which is what a 4 sec stun on wrestle would do.    

And stop using the excuse of the past 5 years of pvp as some reason that people dont know about pvp.  Pvp is has been completely broken for the past  5 years on top of the introduction of many more 3rd party clients which bolster meta of fake lousy pvp.   The massive skill increase plus parry/evade combined with caster templates is bad for balance and pvp as a whole.   Its been easy button nonsense plus people only running in big groups, if you dont have ten plus dont bother to login.  I chose to stay oout of this bad version of pvp cause its pointless and dumb and lacks skill and talent.