Parry on PvP

Cetric

CovenantX said:

Cetric said:

most of this "debate" goes back to some original questions regarding balance

Should templates in pvp be balanced towards 1v1 or group vs group.  The overwhelming decision was group v group.  Parry IS NECCESARY when you are fighting 5v5 and have 3-4 archers switching onto a target, heal blocking with mortal/poison and laying waste.  1v1, yep a parry char has a decisive advantage over a dexer. 

the OP plays alone, by himself, no team and plays an archer only.  No mages, no anything else.  He is a solo archer in the world.  You can see how he formulates his opinion on the subject.

  Dunno, man I play mages 80%+ of the time in pvp, I don't play Any dexers that don't "cast" spells, simply for interrupting mages because without it, it feels like a waste of time.

I could kill most people much faster on a mage, because with spells, you don't need to rely on the RNG of landing hits.   Yet, I have a similar opinion as the OP on dexers vs mages (especially Dexer(s) vs Parry-mage(s))

 The OP may play solo and only play archers, it doesn't matter... you know why? because parry does make mages near-immortal vs dexers.  All because they keep their maximum level of defense + a hand free for potions.   This is why the Adjustment/nerf/tweak - whatever you want to call it, needs to be targeted specifically to Wrestling And/Or Anatomy + Parry.  No one else would have a hand free without at least temporarily dropping defense for a potion.

 Also, shield-bash - as a parry-mage there really isn't any other mastery that could compete with it, deals damage roughly equivalent to an Armor Ignore + paralyze.


 You're saying the OP is likely biased with the last comment, and most of the time it's safe to assume that, except the problem is there have been numerous posts about Parry being Overpowered if Mages are using it (on stratics), and the nerf the devs have applied doesn't address Parry, it Addressed Focus-Spec.    Hence why Parry is still overpowered.

What would you propose then?  You Nerf parry, what do you think a group of dexers would do to a group of mages?

Lieutenant_Dan

The_Higgs_1 said:

The dex requirement was a decent fix prior to global loot revamp.  It no longer applies to the current meta.

Even with the global loot changes adding dex to 80 is a hefty sacrifice for mages.

CovenantX

Cetric said:

What would you propose then?  You Nerf parry, what do you think a group of dexers would do to a group of mages?

 The same thing I propose every time.. unrelated to parry, but can still be used in conjunction..

#1) Remove Casting Focus from pvp.
#2) Remove Poison immunity (free cure) from pvp.

It's just more crap that gives mages additional RNG benefits they don't need. Take away some of the randomness and bring back player skill (timing & awareness) to pvp.

 Parry wouldn't be so Overpowered for mages if say the parry chance were reduced to 20% from 35% (only if paired with Wrestling or Anatomy), but a Parry-mage would still be more difficult for a dexer than a non-parry mage.  I want it to be consistent & balanced, in the same fashion it is for literally every other template that uses it.  

 a Mage would still beat a dexer with the proposed parry reduction.
 group vs group... is irrelevant because the same would hold true if the terms are equal.  it just depends more on how well coordinated the group is, Obviously if you play with a bunch of people that don't know what they're doing, vs another group that does... you'd lose regardless which side you're on.

Lieutenant_Dan said:

Even with the global loot changes adding dex to 80 is a hefty sacrifice for mages.

 I take it you haven't experimented much with reforging/imbuing, you clearly haven't with global loot.

 a Mage with a base of 10 dex can easily reach 80+ with very little or no sacrifice.. actually it's fairly simple to make a suit with low end runic kits to reforge + imbuing with a single filler legendary for resistances and some of the most commonly used "artifacts".  going the "Imbued" route you'd likely give up a few HPR & MR points, that's about it.   but then again... the "sacrifice" depends on how bad the filler legendary piece is.

Also, if your dex is only 10 (real) Curse & Clumsy doesn't reduce it even if your have the highest possible dex increase on your suit + potions & any other buff, which can exceed 100 dexterity without reallocating stat points from strength or intelligence.

Mervyn

 Covenantx, with regards to casting focus, it’s 12% tops (without inscribe), I don’t think anyone would ever die without it anymore. I think it really adds an interesting element. Weaken heal must come with a very small risk (of the aggressor casting through the disturb). We’re all 20 year vets now, nobody would ever die against a mage if you could guarantee the disturbs.

poison resistance only kicks in rarely, but often when you’re poisoned frequently , this is really fair against people who think it’s skilful to poison harm harm poison harm harm at super fast EC auto target last speed.

They’re both quite clever balances added. I really don’t know why you’re so stuck on this purist classic magery. 

Cure potions have a chance to fail, an nox has a chance to fail, bombard has a chance to stun, when you go to shield bash, they have a chance to dodge, I could go on. Let it be. I like it.

CovenantX

@Mervyn ;  it's 12%-17% stacked on top of dodge chance (50%) and parry chance (35%)
all of which are skewed against dexers more than anything else.

Parry + Defensive skill = 67.5% chance to completely avoid damage from a dexer. slightly lower than 1/3 attacks will land

Parry + Defensive skill + 12% Casting Focus = 75.6% to completely avoid interruption. slightly lower than 1/4 attacks will land

Parry + Defensive skill + 17% Casting Focus = 79% chance to completely avoid interruption ~slightly above 1/5 attacks will land.


Poison Immunity goes off rarely when everyone has poisoning skill...which most people do, shocker, I know.... The whole "poison, harm, harm" is irrelevant,  interrupt the harm... it's pretty  easy to get out of that.

Poison Immunity & Casting Focus aren't clever balances... stacking additional RNG onto things that were based on 100% timing is garbage.

Greater Cure potions with only 35% EP & 0.0 alchemy skill can literally only fail on lv 4 & 5 (DP  & LP) poisons... oddly enough, it requires poisoning skill to use those.   skill-based methods = 2nd tier when compared to potions. all because there's no cooldown.

Mervyn

As you well know casting focus doesn’t prevent you from being hit, so you’re talking about the chance to cast a heal if you’re including casting focus. But if you’re hit with infecting or mortal or if it’s the coup de gras, then the casting focus doesn’t come into your equations.

plus you haven’t factored in any hit lower defence which most dexxers hit.

CovenantX

@Mervyn That's why I said it's a total chance to avoid spell interruption.  the spell could be healing, offense, or utility.. it matters not.

Hit Lower Defense can only proc if you land a hit in the first place... besides, even if lower defense was in affect the entire fight. it would work as follows.

avoid being hit/spell interruption
60.75% / 71% (scribe +17 CF - HLD)
60.75% / 68% (+12 CF - HLD)
60.75% / -- (-HLD)

even if the parry reduction I suggest (20% down from 35%) were to take place the chances would be as follows:

avoid being hit/spell interruption
54% / 63% (scribe +17 CF - HLD)
54% / 60% (+12 CF - HLD)
54% / -- (-HLD)

Parry chance doesn't get reduced by hit lower defense whatsoever, it's a flat 35% at all times with 120 parry & 80+ dex, (Parry chance can be increased with the mastery though, but I'm not factoring that)... It's only the "dodge chance" that's reduced by hit lower defense, it's -35% (15 dci at 45/45)

Also, the "dodge chance" is calculated before the parry chance, so you would end up reactive paralyzing your attacker more often with low defense chance increase, so there's potential benefit there as well. (RP buys you more time than a dodge or parry)

as a side note:  HLA => HLD  for those of you who run Parry+Bushido (mages...) of course, you would have both.
 
Hit lower Attack = -25 HCI (20/45)
Hit lower Defense = -35% DCI (30/45)

Mervyn

If it doesn't matter whether the spell is healing, or utility, or offensive, then lets just put protection on and make the summs = a full 100%

CovenantX

Mervyn said:

If it doesn't matter whether the spell is healing, or utility, or offensive, then lets just put protection on and make the summs = a full 100%

  It doesn't matter because the point is it should be interrupted if you're hit, unless protection is used, Protection has penalties associated it.

Casting focus should be pvm only, or it should just be completely removed from UO altogether.
same thing with the poison immunity (free cure), if you want it, use orange petals. it's what they're there for after all...

Parry still needs re-balancing if it's paired with Wrestling or Anatomy.

20%-35% block chance if Wrestling Or Anatomy is your defensive weapon skill. (35% only if both hands are occupied)
20% block chance for Balanced 2-h melee weapons. (Balanced 2-h melee weapon + Parry + Bushido)

35% block chance for Fencing, Macing, Swords + Parry (1-h Weapon + Parry + shield  OR 1-h weapon + Parry + Bushido)

40% block chance for 2-h Fencing, Macing, Swords (melee + Parry + Bushido + 2-h weapon)

That looks much more fair to me than the current system does.


⎈ Personally, I'd rather the passive block chance be completely replaced by something you toggle so that you could guarantee a block on the next incoming block-able attack, obviously with a cooldown.   make the players timing & awareness make the difference in a fight, instead of this random garbage.  ⎈

Mervyn

Okay you have demonstrated you have a high chance of defence with wrestle parry against warriors. But that is what a parry mage is, a warrior defensive char. It’s a Rock Paper Scissors issue. I have a good suited parry mage, but it’s not my main char as i find it’s not very defensive against groups of mages etc. 

You could play a chiv mage with 69.9 magery and FC4. Would be very very defensive but very litttle offence. 

CovenantX

Mervyn said:

Okay you have demonstrated you have a high chance of defence with wrestle parry against warriors. But that is what a parry mage is, a warrior defensive char. It’s a Rock Paper Scissors issue. I have a good suited parry mage, but it’s not my main char as i find it’s not very defensive against groups of mages etc. 

You could play a chiv mage with 69.9 magery and FC4. Would be very very defensive but very litttle offence. 

 Well, your main defenses against other mages would be Magery (your timing*) & Potions.
Unless you have bushido for evasion, but as I've said in the previous post.  there are vulnerabilities to that and it requires many more skill points.

*with casting focus being part of mage pvp, "timing" isn't always reliable anymore.

the key phrase is: it’s not very defensive against groups of mages etc

the defense & offense on a wrestle/parry-mage =/= against pretty much every other type of mage with fewer vulnerabilities, because you cannot be disarmed to reduce your defenses & you always have a hand free for potions.