Gargoyle Tamers with five slots pets and the ability to fly as fast as a person on a mount.

Drakelord

Now that Pub 100 is out I like to see them take a really good look at prejudice against Human/Elf Tamers, and the favoritism for the Gargoyle Tamers with five slots pets and the ability to fly as fast as a person on a mount. I really hate the fact that even at a dead run a Gargoyle can pass me like I am standing still, and I know that the first thing someone going to say is, make a Gargoyle tamer, problem solved, Sorry but HELL NO, I hate the flying bat/mice. Now the fix is, clip the wings of a Gargoyle when escorting a 5 slotted pet, or remove all etheral mounts from the follower requirements give mounts to those tamers not of the Gargoyle race.

Xare

I personally believe that option 2 is the better path.  If the Dev team decides to take this on, their approach will be interesting.  Option 1 hints that they're more about limiting the player rather than enabling the player, as option 2 would do.  Both result in the same goal, ie, players with 5 slot pets are able to move at the same speed.

Teapot

The usefulness is very niche.  Being about to ride through swarms on a mountable pet is usually way more helpful than having to trail a pet on a gargoyle.  So there is definetly pros for both that offset imo.

Larisa

Just because a gargoyle can fly fast doesn't mean their pet can...you still have to go as slow as your pet is...so while you're flying at dizzying speed, you're pet is 9 screens behind you trying to catch up...seriously this isn't an issue

Rock

@Teapot, you make a good point.  There is already relative balance.

Rock

One way to help balance the 5-slot conundrum is to give the Herding skill a use.  For each 50 real skill points in Herding, a player would get another pet slot.  The more slots there are available to any race, the less any advantage a flying Gargoyle would have.

Also, racial balance involves more than just flying or not flying.  A human, for example, has only a 20% weapon damage penalty with no Tactics or Anatomy, while the other two races have a 50% penalty.  (Humans gain 10% DI from their 20 JOAT Anatomy and 20% DI from their 20 JOAT Tactics.)  So if one claims the current balance is "unfair", be sure to consider all the factors.

Drakelord

Larisa said:

Just because a gargoyle can fly fast doesn't mean their pet can...you still have to go as slow as your pet is...so while you're flying at dizzying speed, you're pet is 9 screens behind you trying to catch up...seriously this isn't an issue

But, they really do not have to wait, the can fly to the location, invis, log out, log in, pet there and you are still running to get there since they move so much faster than a dismounted person.

Then there is this pet pee I have.  

• Pet AI: Improved Dragon AI target selection for Greater Dragons, Dragon Turtles, and Frost Dragons.

you tell your pet all kill and it there in a flash, but it takes forever to return to you when you say all follow me.  Now, why is it that a pet can move like lighting in the attack but crawls back like a little old lady at the crosswalks.

Diabolical

So what would we do about the 5 slot nightmares and cu’s. You want to fix garg bc they fly but your forgetting the ride by dismounting all kill. And in theory for every 100 normal human/elf you might find 1 garg tamer. 

ZekeTerra

With 5 slot rideable pets being more powerful than the greater dragons and Frost Dragons I converted my gargoyle tamers back to human or elf.  Gargoyles can't mount them and get them out from being stuck in the middle of players and mobs at an event so I think this makes them equal...

Sliss

Not being able to ride is a very serious disadvantage game play wise. I have two tamers and neither is a Garg for that very reason. I don't know if Garg tamers need a boost, but they definitely don't need a nerf.

Max_Blackoak

I find it really annoying that so many people including the OP don't seem to get that the very reason for introducing different races to UO is to have different approaches to the game. If every race were the same then there would be no need for different races in the first place. The same goes for skills and templates - if they all could do the same things then why even have variety to select from? All it comes down to is usually to weigh the advantages over the disadvatanges and see what works best for you. In this case:

Gargoyles get to use 5 slot pets and still move at mounted speed while the pet is deployed. The drawback is that they can't hop on their mountable pets to save them when in a pinch. Another drawback is that it is harder to good gargoyle suits, with some essential artifacts not even available for gargoyles.

Human and elf tamers can't have their 5 slot pets deployed and move at mounted speed unless they use high enough ninjitsu for at least llama form (that's around 80 to cast it somewhat reliably). To move with mounted speed they usually use 5 slot pets that are rideable, so getting anywhere unlike the OP claims does not put humans/elfs at a disadvantage, if anything it puts them at an advantage because they don't have to wait for their pets to navigate around obstacles since they're riding them. Now you could argue that mounted pets are not on par with unmountable pets - I have yet to see one non-rideable pet that will outdo any mountable pet. With the choice of lesser hiryus, cu sidhes, nightmares, firesteeds, unicorns, ki-rins, giant beetles, fire beetles you have some of the most important pets to build the way you want and be among the top damagers every time.

Also humans/elves have it much easier to suit up and can use all of the artifacts in the game.

So please Drakelord, take your whining elsewhere but don't make stupid requests when you clearly haven't put more than a second's thought into it.

Merus

Max_Blackoak said:

I find it really annoying that so many people including the OP don't seem to get that the very reason for introducing different races to UO is to have different approaches to the game. If every race were the same then there would be no need for different races in the first place. The same goes for skills and templates - if they all could do the same things then why even have variety to select from? All it comes down to is usually to weigh the advantages over the disadvatanges and see what works best for you. In this case:

Gargoyles get to use 5 slot pets and still move at mounted speed while the pet is deployed. The drawback is that they can't hop on their mountable pets to save them when in a pinch. Another drawback is that it is harder to good gargoyle suits, with some essential artifacts not even available for gargoyles.

Human and elf tamers can't have their 5 slot pets deployed and move at mounted speed unless they use high enough ninjitsu for at least llama form (that's around 80 to cast it somewhat reliably). To move with mounted speed they usually use 5 slot pets that are rideable, so getting anywhere unlike the OP claims does not put humans/elfs at a disadvantage, if anything it puts them at an advantage because they don't have to wait for their pets to navigate around obstacles since they're riding them. Now you could argue that mounted pets are not on par with unmountable pets - I have yet to see one non-rideable pet that will outdo any mountable pet. With the choice of lesser hiryus, cu sidhes, nightmares, firesteeds, unicorns, ki-rins, giant beetles, fire beetles you have some of the most important pets to build the way you want and be among the top damagers every time.

Also humans/elves have it much easier to suit up and can use all of the artifacts in the game.

So please Drakelord, take your whining elsewhere but don't make stupid requests when you clearly haven't put more than a second's thought into it.

+1

Larisa

I was totally 100% with you Max...until your little quip at the end which wasn't really needed....and honestly the only reason I made one of my tamers a gargoyle is so that if I do get into trouble I can fly away and save myself...yes I sacrifice my pets a lot lol...purely selfish on my part but when you're in the middle of a fight and get targeted I'd rather have my pet die then me and it's MUCH easier to get away on a gargoyle.

Yes it was hard to build her a suit at first but with all the legendaries I get on the roof it got easier! and having to walk..or fly..everywhere with a pet in tow is NOT fun so there are pros and cons to both which is why I have 2 tamers on Origin, same template one human and one garg just so I can switch off.

Drakelord

Diabolical said:

So what would we do about the 5 slot nightmares and cu’s. You want to fix garg bc they fly but your forgetting the ride by dismounting all kill. And in theory for every 100 normal human/elf you might find 1 garg tamer. 

Yes, I will admit I have a 5 slot mare, on more than one tamer/shard and when I have to, I run away from mine pets.  But the point I am making is that the Garg with a five slotted pet can move at mounted speed while flying.  So here another tack let's not clip the wings of the mighty Garg's but remove all etheral mounts from followers.  The only followers should be (in game) creatures/beasts of the land, not etheral mounts.

As for my question Max.   The only stupid question is the one not asked.  I wished I could have been on Siege for the Meet and Greet with the LONG list I have.   I had to email my list in..

Max_Blackoak

seem like there's an exception to every rule...

Keep gargoyles the way they are and keep the 1 follower slot requirement for ethys. It's really not an issue.

Xare

Max_Blackoak said:

So please Drakelord, take your whining elsewhere but don't make stupid requests when you clearly haven't put more than a second's thought into it.

Let the personal attacks fly!  That's just a fantastic way to get your point across.  Was it really needed?  You had laid out your argument in a clear and cohesive fashion, then just tossed this onto the end with a flourish and totally invalidated everything.  Good job!

Rorschach

let's keep it civil.

Bilbo

Max_Blackoak said:

seem like there's an exception to every rule...

Keep gargoyles the way they are and keep the 1 follower slot requirement for ethys. It's really not an issue.

Speak only for yourself because it must be an issue for others or there would not be a thread on it.

Nikard

Can we talk about how you are forced to play a gargoyle in order to fly? How is that not a fair tradeoff?

Drakelord

All our tamers  https://1drv.ms/f/s!AvbqWN9iU8WggcN10bWyzDISk6GV5A

Tim

How about a compromise? 
If your pet is dead or more the x distance away it drops 1 slot requirement. The only time I really object to the gargoyle's advantage is when I'm running back from a healer only to find I'm way to late to save my pet when I could have made it in time riding. 
I do admit it is a small issue but is annoying at times.

PS half my pets are not ridable (I get bored just using a puppy)

Mariah

Tim said:

How about a compromise? 
If your pet is dead or more the x distance away it drops 1 slot requirement. The only time I really object to the gargoyle's advantage is when I'm running back from a healer only to find I'm way to late to save my pet when I could have made it in time riding. 
I do admit it is a small issue but is annoying at times.

PS half my pets are not ridable (I get bored just using a puppy)

The answer to your problem of returning to your pet more swiftly is Sacrifice virtue

Tim

Thanks Mariah I hadn't thought of that.
Also hadn't read down to the last paragraph and got to the part about self resurrection. (my bad )

DeadlySerious

If you have 5/5 follower slots I would like to see Ethereal mounting but as soon as you receive any damage it's gone with no dismount penatly but a cooldown on Ethereal mount.