show red players some love

Lynk

My red can has town buffs?

TimSt

No reds in Tram.  I left Fel to get away from other players who were attacking me.

Lynk

Glad to have Tim on board for reds in tram, they will just appear blue while in tram.  Good idea tim.

Bilbo

Use Pardons like everybody else and quit asking for an "EASY BUTTON" or better yet allow REDs in Tram but make Blues in FEL immune to attack.  You want to kill some one then go kill another RED.

jaytin

But just think, we could organise guild 'red' hunts....

Bilbo

LMAO

Lynk

Bilbo the random capitalization of certain words certainly helps illustrate your point with much more clarity than it otherwise would have, regardless of how stupid the content may actually be.

Pinkerton

Being red in Fel is a benefit, not a hindrance.  Reds can already go into any town and use any bank.  Being Red in Fel means you can use AOE and fields against blues.  

If a red can go to Tram and be blue then there is literally NO reason not to be red.

Reds are freely attackable though!  So what?  So is any blue in Fel, and why not attack them because there is absolutely no repercussion.

This is literally one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard.

Want to play in Tram?  Use one of your other 6 char slots to make the same char and usa a mannequin to swap gear.

Too inconvenient?  Too bad, you chose to murder other players. Deal with it.  or better yet just go get one of these cheap and easy to farm pardons and not be red.

TastyTreats

I don't get why posters like Pinkerton and Bilbo even bother posting they just babble about something completely off-topic that has nothing to do with the current discussion in hopes to derail the thread.

But I will play along.

Why shouldn't a red be allowed in trammel? How can a facet randomly dictate who can enter lol why would red's be excluded somehow? Just because the trammel / felucca split was originally bad game design doesn't mean it has to remain that way.

The majority of posters are either neutral or in support of this idea. Red's are already going to trammel so nothing changes the only difference is the way I suggested is makes the game better for everyone. Like I said before I am really interested in opinion's on why using royal pardon's to go blue is better for the game then simply just allowing red's to enter trammel and removing royal pardon's from the game. There is only positives (for everyone) in what I have suggested with no negatives (for anyone).

@Mesanna @Kyronix ;

I think it's time to really consider this idea as very few people are against it. While those that are cannot provide a rational explanation of why not.

Petra_Fyde

I can't help wondering about the technical side of the game having to check for a murder count on every single character that recalls, casts a gate, enters a public moongate or uses a crystal/corrupted crystal with a destination in Felucca allowing only 0-4 count characters to arrive blue and 5 and over to arrive red.

It's all very well saying 'make it so', but last I knew the devs didn't have a magic wand and the scope for bugs and exploits makes me cringe.  I don't think I'd ever dare set foot in the facet again for fear of arriving to find I'd mysteriously gained umpteen unearned murder counts.

TastyTreats

Why would you over complicate things? There would be no need for a murder count check all characters would simply be blue while in trammel it would be a really easy thing to do.

Petra_Fyde

and there totally wouldn't be any problem re-establishing that they should be red when they returned to fel?

Mervyn

Petra_Fyde said:

and there totally wouldn't be any problem re-establishing that they should be red when they returned to fel?

I have no opinion with the subject matter, however this response makes little sense. Every vvv member turns from orange to blue when changing from a non consensual pvp facet to a consensual facet through a semi permeable membrane. Or is this some backanded dig aimed at the dev’s competence?

Lord_Nythrax

I've never really been into PVP in this game but even I can tell you that the entire concept of "murder counts" is basically 15+ years out of date. It's not guys in bone helmets raiding player weddings during the Clinton Administration anymore. Felucca is the PVP server, so just remove red status, give everyone a generic kill counter, and be done with it.

Tempest

this sounds like a pretty good idea. Originally red's were only unable to go to trammel but since the split more and more zones have been added to the list ( Ilshenar, Malas, Tokuno, Ter Mur and now Eodon)

Reds are a dying breed yet very important part of UO they deserve to be able to go to trammel and all the other zones. Yet still remain red while in a felucca ruleset there is no negative to this suggestion at all. I think it is an outdated concept to exclude murderers from zones now it might have worked back when the trammel / felucca split happened but not anymore.

Tim

Just a couple of questions

1. Why are Reds a "very important part of UO"?
2. If it is such a important and enjoyable part of the game why do pardons sell out as soon as the are put on a vendor?
3. Every payed account has 6 characters per shard so can't you afford one to be red and the rest blue?

If it's your thing fine but I and a large portion of players don't find PvP fun and it should have some penalties to match the increased rewards of Fel.

cobb

Tim said:

Just a couple of questions

1. Why are Reds a "very important part of UO"?
2. If it is such a important and enjoyable part of the game why do pardons sell out as soon as the are put on a vendor?
3. Every payed account has 6 characters per shard so can't you afford one to be red and the rest blue?

If it's your thing fine but I and a large portion of players don't find PvP fun and it should have some penalties to match the increased rewards of Fel.

1.  The red/blue/grey notoriety system is one of the most unique features of UO and makes it stand out from many of the other games.  It is a large part of the game's history. When I first started playing UO, this and the bounty system convinced me to keep playing. Now people are wanting to take away the the thing that makes UO special.

2. The answer to that is the town bonus.  The FC1 town bonus you can get is such a big advantage, red characters have been forced to become blue to use the bonus. Now all the PK's you see these days are all blue.  They just kill you and eat a pardon. I doubt this is how the system was meant to work. 

Cookie

 Ok, as the games greatest ever anti PK of all time, I guess I have a right to respond.

I am not really for this idea. I think the system is ok as it is.

A few responses to points raised, in no order;

• From a role playing point of view, and from a practical point of view, reds should have disadvantages, reds do play a more negative playstyle, they are also set-up purely for killing other players, whist blues are set up for achieving game objectives. The advantage of surprise and set-up lie with the PK's. Blues should have a couple of advantages themselves.
• Players should not be gimping themselves so that they rely on a town buff - that is their own fault. It's a bonus, not something permanent you can rely on.
• To say you instantly use a Royal Pardon and off you go to Trammel turning from Red to Blue, is misleading. You can get say 700 VvV points per uncontested town, which means you need to do 14 uncontested VvV towns to get a Royal Pardon. Each town takes 20 minutes. Your instant transformation takes about 5 hours of game-time to achieve. At best.
• Mervyn, for you to say Blues are in fact trolling the game mechanics, is again misleading. I've played against your guild since time immemorial, and Red guilds are far more guilty of using Blues to evade game mechanics in these scenario's. At best, it is 50/50 who is abusing the game mechanics, it certainly isn't something you can use for your argument.
• The concept of Pardons gives decent game content, either in VvV or Treasure Chests, no point in taking this away.
• Truthfully, who the hell would ever want to go to Trammel? Quite frankly, I think I am doing Reds a favour, by protecting them from going there, I certainly hate going there on my Blue.

(By the way, I do believe all players should have access to all landmasses - under Felucca rules). For me, that is the real fix here.

cobb

I understand some ppl wanting disadvantages for reds for rp purposes. But come on now, there are almost no reds left in UO. It is quite obvious the disadvantage has gone way too far, way past the point of balance. They already have enough disadvantages such as being freely attackable by anyone, and not being able to initiate combat in guard zones.

cobb

I would also like to point out that the big  red vs blue battles of the past were a good way for newer players to participate and learn about pvp. Now that is gone as well, and getting into pvp for a new player is much more difficult.

Cookie

cobb said:

I understand some ppl wanting disadvantages for reds for rp purposes. But come on now, there are almost no reds left in UO. It is quite obvious the disadvantage has gone way too far, way past the point of balance. They already have enough disadvantages such as being freely attackable by anyone, and not being able to initiate combat in guard zones.

I get your point, but I don't think it is because the disadvantages have gone too far, I think the advantages of Trammel loot and landmasses have gone too far, they have made being Red unappealing.

Additionally, much of the game has gone towards Oranges and PvP, most of the PvP now is centered around Oranges at Spawns, Yew gate etc.

All of this has made the concept of being a Red, almost obsolete, except for a few die-hards - who I do have admiration for by the way. I just don't see the point of making things easier for them. Next people will be asking for Trammel rulesets and to be given free multi million stuff at EM events...…….

I think whilst I get your point, for me, fixes lie in another direction.

Cookie

cobb said:

I would also like to point out that the big  red vs blue battles of the past were a good way for newer players to participate and learn about pvp. Now that is gone as well, and getting into pvp for a new player is much more difficult.

The game has evolved in some senses, and got smaller in others.

In the old days, the game had the numbers for this randomness, for Reds to hit large numbers of random Blues. The game is now smaller in this sense.

Nowadays however, the Guilds have evolved. They are far more co-ordinated, and the battles are usually between guilds, the newer players still get their experience, just in a guild setting. And again, the majority of this is now Orange on Orange.

Tempest

No offense Cookie but none of your arguments make any sense. Players should most definitely gimp themselves so that they rely on town buff's if your not your making yourself weaker and letting your guildmates down. It's no different then in WoW for example when top end players will switch races or factions to get better racials even though the difference is marginal that extra boost could be what is needed.

How is the notion of instantly using a royal pardon misleading? It costs like 5 mill to buy a royal pardon and in today's economy that is pocket change. Lately I have gone to the yew gate on atlantic to watch some PvP fights on a brand new character and constantly blue's will kill me and go red only to be blue 10 minutes later. Actually one guy killed me and went red and used a pardon he was carrying around with him and was blue instantly.

Forged Pardons do give the game compelling content to do and that's probably why it was never suggested to remove those. All that was suggested was that the Royal Pardon be removed or a one time per character item. Royal Pardons add nothing of value to VvV. Treasure Hunters deserve to have a monopoly on Pardons.

I don't get how you can say all players should have access to all landmasses under felucca rules(which you know will never happen) but at the same time deprive reds from going to those same landmasses under trammel ruleset (which is a possibility and very logical).

Cookie

Tempest, had to watch the Matrix before responding.

Going for the last marginal gain, perfection, I agree with. But gimping yourself to rely on something that is outside of your control is not wise. ie, who the next governor is, what buff they may feel like putting on the town, the town running out of gold. I have seen too many times, blue/orange pvpers not able to pvp because they couldn't get the town buff they needed. So even if reds have access to town buffs, they then have the potential to be disabled by factors out of their control. That's not much help.

Re Royal Pardons, however you look at it, it takes an honest player 5 hours minimum to obtain one for themselves by playing it. The fact duping/Trammel/scripting/gold sites/whatever may have completely screwed up the game economy is not the debate here. Unless you are duping them, Royal Pardons are not instantly created.

Both Royal Pardons, and Forged Pardons imo give compelling content. Of course VvV could give better rewards to boost it, rather than some crappy antique stuff.

Your final paragraph, I hate Trammel ruleset, what can I say.

Kronal

Sure give them the same love that they gave to those that made them turn red... absolutly nothing.

Luc_of_Legends

(puts on asbestos suit) I have an idea. It seem to me as a non-pvper the issue is town buffs and pardons.

Either put town buffs in fel or remove them completely. (ducks behind Mervyn and Bilbo)

If you bring reds to tram and back. You will have to implement a check for murder counts coming and going.

Simplest solution that would have the least amount of backlash to the game (code wise) is my next solution.

Just remove PVP since you want play in tram training wheel mode. (ducks and runs to RSU fallout shelter)  You want cake and eat it too. i.e you want be red but you want the town buffs and tram access.

The_Higgs_1

Governor's to begin with was one of the worst ideas in UO history, gaming and politics go together like oil and water.  Second governor's having control of town buffs even dumber idea then the first point.  Third VvV was a terrible change from factions, factions was ten times better.  PvP hasn't been properly balanced in years, now that the game has gone back to itemization again its gotten even worse.  The game overall is dying due to awful decisions, without a major overhaul its pretty much done for.  Oh yeah lets not forget the lack of content updates, huge reason why the population is so small.  I'll give it to the end of the year to see what happens then I'll probably close my accounts for good.  

McDougle

Pinkerton said:

Sure let reds in Tram, and let them be attackable in Tram.  Allow them to try and defend themselves, of course.  But, hey, everyone is griping for more PvP.

And all we hear is Fel players crying "Risk vs Reward"

So sure, come to Tram all you want, but being red means you are freely attackable by anyone at any time.

This....

Gidge

We will trade'ja FC1 in Felucca for Powerscrolls at Tram Champ spawns. Seem like a fair trade?

CovenantX

Gidge said:

We will trade'ja FC1 in Felucca for Powerscrolls at Tram Champ spawns. Seem like a fair trade?

  Hah, nah, we'll just remain blue and take spawns from other blues... best of both worlds =]