Kyronix, any updates on War On 3rd Party Clients?

username

@Kyronix these clients have scourged the game long enough and have ruined many aspects. For example, one of biggest parts of the game, PVP, that's supposed to be highly skilled but you cannot even remotely do that fairly anymore. It's all automated and skill-less.
Idocs? Completely automated, thanks to these clients.
Placing houses? Gee wonder why housing on Atlantic is ran by a few people and crazy expensive once these clients became so prolific.

You guys already have a system in place that (apparently, according to the discords) can send out random packets that needs responses. If that's the case, why not change the data in the packet and require a different response, make a list of accounts that can't reply (instead of disconnecting them like you did last time), and do a ban wave on those accounts that fail the check over a certain amount of times? 

This needs to be #1 priority right now.

Kyronix

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

username

Kyronix said:

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

Thanks for the reply. 

Lord_Nythrax

Kyronix said:

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

Translation: The "war on third party" was a horrible failure. Our attempt to inconvenience cheaters with intermittent disconnects was defeated within days. Even worse, we conclusively demonstrated that we will not actually conduct large-scale ban waves even when the cheating is blatant. Our current plan is to just never talk about it ever again.

Lord_Nythrax

username said:
You guys already have a system in place that (apparently, according to the discords) can send out random packets that needs responses. If that's the case, why not change the data in the packet and require a different response, make a list of accounts that can't reply (instead of disconnecting them like you did last time), and do a ban wave on those accounts that fail the check over a certain amount of times?

Because they can't actually afford to mass-ban paid accounts even when they're openly cheating. We've got one group of good third partiers doing free client development for the game and another group of bad third partiers who cheat as much as they want and get away with it. The developers have essentially been vanquished and have become an increasingly irrelevant force within their own game.

KroDuK

username said:

Kyronix said:

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

Thanks for the reply. 

Wait what.. he's pretty much telling you f off and f you and u thank him for it?

this never have existed: https://uo.com/2024/07/22/the-war-on-unapproved-3rd-party-programs/

   

Edit: by using cheating in that post the producer meant; Free Loading.


@kyronix you don't go far enough.. this is just lazyness wild west style; no laws no rules no order (also keep that event dev in check; unreal).. make a legit server and apply the rules also fire those affiliates and make a real EA cash shop to hire more dev power so u'll be able to do more than maintenance on vanilla while working on New Heresy; Theme Park Legacy.

Cookie

Mariah

It has NEVER been policy to forewarn exploiters of any action planned against them, yet you expect it to happen here?

I wish I had the same level of mind reading skill as @Lord_Nythrax and @KroDuK

Can I politely request that those two poster stop 'interpreting' devs posts and allow our devs to post without their unhelpful input.

psycho

Mariah said:

I wish I had the same level of mind reading skill as @ Lord_Nythrax and @ KroDuK

Can I politely request that those two poster stop 'interpreting' devs posts and allow our devs to post without their unhelpful input.

Are you going to police people because of their engagement and dedication towards a fair and clean game?  If that is the case we are on the wrong course. Their response were based on history of the topic, and the past few years have shows quite a significant lack of response.

Its every game developers dream to have an engaged and dedicated playerbase who cares about the future of the game and try help out as much as possible with ideas and such to acvhieve that.

Mariah

No. If you want the devs to continue to communicate, people need to stop 'translating' anything they say into something negative and uncaring. Anyone who has listened to, or read, the recent interviews would know that is far from the truth.

Stop putting a negative spin on everything. It is not helpful, it discourages people from posting and is counter to the rules of the forum that asks posters to treat everyone with respect. That particularly applies to the dev team. They are NOT getting the respect they deserve from certain posters.

Garret

  An example from life, almost all countries have laws, police, courts, somewhere even repressions and that they managed to get rid of criminality?
  This is a game blah blah blah, the mentality of people does what it does, I'm not saying that bots are criminals, I'm saying that human nature works this way, if there is an opportunity to take 90% will take. People insult developers, but no one condemns bots?
  No game, no game! could and will not be able to overcome the dark side of the game, because these are the conditions of progress, people come up with cheats, developers come up with how to fight them - again, this is a question of mentality.
  If you have radical views on this issue, then start helping and promoting a healthy environment without cheaters. Simply asking sharp questions and insulting you will achieve nothing.

Lord_Nythrax

Mariah said:

It has NEVER been policy to forewarn exploiters of any action planned against them, yet you expect it to happen here?

I wish I had the same level of mind reading skill as @ Lord_Nythrax and @ KroDuK

Can I politely request that those two poster stop 'interpreting' devs posts and allow our devs to post without their unhelpful input.

They seemed pretty happy to talk about planned actions when they were "declaring war" in the first place. Did you forget about that part? Then their attempts to derail the cheaters went absolutely nowhere, the servers were supposedly DDOSed in retaliation, and now they have nothing to say on the subject. Looks a lot like they've been beaten into submission.

We know they can detect the cheat client, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to stymie it for a couple of days the way they did. Any remotely healthy game would have just started slapping bans on the attached accounts until things sorted themselves out, but that isn't what happened, is it?

Either point to the rule that says not to criticize the developers miserable failures or get off my case.

Cookie

username said:

@ Kyronix these clients have scourged the game long enough and have ruined many aspects. For example, one of biggest parts of the game, PVP, that's supposed to be highly skilled but you cannot even remotely do that fairly anymore. It's all automated and skill-less.

I'm going to pick up on this bit.
The difference in skill between me, and you, is real, it is infinite, it is huge, it is not down to scripting.
If the game were put on an equal level, you would be performing even worse, and still unable to understand why, but you would find another excuse.
It is down to training, you are all talk, you are a quitter. You will never be good.
I still often pvp with no scripts, and it makes no difference, but you need an excuse. I only need to use 2 scripts vs some of the best players in the game. I'm even using what many consider to be a pvm suit, to give you a clue, I'm using compassions eye, and alchemists bauble. It's still very much about teamwork, and skill.
Quitter quit, haters hate, you are one of them.

PvPers took an undeserved hit during the war against 3rd party software and Bots, and that made me angry, because there was not a level playing field between enhanced and classic, so pvpers had nowhere to go, as the majority will not use enhanced due to the way it looks and plays. Many pvpers quit, because the fun playstyle was gone. We had 3 big PvP guilds, now we only have 2.

PvP is picking up again, yesterday I did a 6 vs 11. PvP needs some love, it could be a slight refresh of VvV rewards. PvP is fun, it needs negative people to get off the case, the fact is, quitters will not come back no matter what. Culture wars just cause negative and bad feelings all round, and that is what you guys do.

cansirus

Kyronix said:

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

It sounds somewhat contradictory to say they're striving for a broader field and blocking third-party clients. It's 2025, and the kids who played UO have grown up. They don't have time to waste endless hours; they just want to go online and have a little fun. Let third-party clients operate, and if it's because of cheating, put in place better rules or only allow one account per IP.

KroDuK

cansirus said:

It sounds somewhat contradictory to say they're striving for a broader field and blocking third-party clients. It's 2025, and the kids who played UO have grown up. They don't have time to waste endless hours; they just want to go online and have a little fun. Let third-party clients operate, and if it's because of cheating, put in place better rules or only allow one account per IP.

I respect you for saying loudly what a lot of users around here been thinking.. the problem here it create a bad balance for open world stuff.. like placing house, PvPing, farming mats/gears, etc etc..

They don't need to ban the cheaters or make cheating legit for everyone (u don't play the game you operate/supervising a machine.. to me it's a big no-no.. those games à la NCSoft already exist)


They could clearly make different rules for different shard tho.. like a free client one.. a CC one (classic style) a non cash shop/RMT one, etc, etc.. on the free client you are gonna see bots like u see them (on every shards) on Legend it's mostly all u see outside the bank.. bots!!
But on a legit shard.. u better hide or u gonna get transfer into a free client shard for cheating, type of stuff. (banworld shard)


PS: no need to hit on the moderator (the freaking messengers) I knew what I was doing.. even if I disagree with her saying i'm interpreting something.. if u read the war on third party post vs kyro response..

Mariah answer was made during an eclipse I believe.. she did not see the sun; that war on third party post from the producer in july 2024.. cuz now it's flirting with false advertissement, (more coming soon) considering kyro answer in this post.


And no i hvnt watch a 2 hours stream.. even at 2x it's too slow.. i'll just say that, to stay politicly correct; that CM ain't for me.

PS2: they don't need 2 person to replace Mesanna.. no need someone to deal with affiliates with a real EA cash shop.. the solution is soo easy.. cut into the fat make a legit option, keep that event dev in check and u gonna have plenty of fund to hire more dev power.. time to change that Bonnie culture.. time to look forward and up!

The last hope I had for UO was the tim cotten era with SA.. but yeah the more info was coming out the more WTF there was among us (the people i was playing with)
To see him quit the sinking boat 1 year later.. he did great stuff for UO tho (like to combat the non affiliates RMT'ers and/or dupers).. but yeah some of those mechanic.. like imbue and how u acquired ingredient.. was.. then the infamous High Sea.. the "booster pack" to promote their new client.. have you ever try to play on high sea with the CC?

Guess what else u were promoting with some of SA mechanics and the totality of high sea.. like u are with those events..

Rorschach

I have removed several posts and replies that did not adhere to the terms of service that we all agreed to. Please post responsibly,

username

Cookie said:

I'm going to pick up on this bit.
The difference in skill between me, and you, is real, it is infinite, it is huge, it is not down to scripting.
If the game were put on an equal level, you would be performing even worse, and still unable to understand why, but you would find another excuse.
It is down to training, you are all talk, you are a quitter. You will never be good.
I still often pvp with no scripts, and it makes no difference, but you need an excuse. I only need to use 2 scripts vs some of the best players in the game. I'm even using what many consider to be a pvm suit, to give you a clue, I'm using compassions eye, and alchemists bauble. It's still very much about teamwork, and skill.
Quitter quit, haters hate, you are one of them.

PvPers took an undeserved hit during the war against 3rd party software and Bots, and that made me angry, because there was not a level playing field between enhanced and classic, so pvpers had nowhere to go, as the majority will not use enhanced due to the way it looks and plays. Many pvpers quit, because the fun playstyle was gone. We had 3 big PvP guilds, now we only have 2.

PvP is picking up again, yesterday I did a 6 vs 11. PvP needs some love, it could be a slight refresh of VvV rewards. PvP is fun, it needs negative people to get off the case, the fact is, quitters will not come back no matter what. Culture wars just cause negative and bad feelings all round, and that is what you guys do.

The difference between you and I is that you cheat in a 30 year old game because your ego will not allow you to lose. And when you lose with all the cheats you try to blame it on other aspects of the game. The mental gymnastics of you trying to justify your cheating in an almost 30 year old MMO is borderline insanity. The only reason you think you are somebody or 'relevant' is because of these programs and scripts which you constantly admit to running. Never forget.

If you're so much better than everyone without these programs then you should want them to be removed. So what do you say?

username

cansirus said:

Kyronix said:

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

It sounds somewhat contradictory to say they're striving for a broader field and blocking third-party clients. It's 2025, and the kids who played UO have grown up. They don't have time to waste endless hours; they just want to go online and have a little fun. Let third-party clients operate, and if it's because of cheating, put in place better rules or only allow one account per IP.

It sounds contradictory when you say fix cheating by restricting one account per IP, when you know, they could just directly remove the problem client instead?

KroDuK

username said:

cansirus said:

Kyronix said:

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

It sounds somewhat contradictory to say they're striving for a broader field and blocking third-party clients. It's 2025, and the kids who played UO have grown up. They don't have time to waste endless hours; they just want to go online and have a little fun. Let third-party clients operate, and if it's because of cheating, put in place better rules or only allow one account per IP.

It sounds contradictory when you say fix cheating by restricting one account per IP, when you know, they could just directly remove the problem client instead?

Different culture different stroke..

Our friend seems to be from south america.. the third party is normalize (a tool) but not the multi client, wich is cheating.. like on Albion I was playing with a lot of Brazilian dudes.. cool dudes.. for them multi client they would visualize a bot farm.. someone sitting in front 20 screens in a server room.

He's saying make them third party legit.. but limit them.. one per person. Give everyone automatization but not an army of bots, u know.

But yeah.. I hated when Blizzard North (one of the best studio of all time with origin system) did that on Diablo.. only one person per household could connect on Bnet.. if u wanna play with your lil bro.. use the LAN option 

Let's not mention the existance of stuff like exitlag (VPN) or other free third party (like before BS permit the multi account on a single PC)
Before to access my mule account at the same time (to transfer beetles, house, etc..) I would use a laptop.. cuz I would refuse to use the multi clienting third party.


I could totally see some shards being "free client"
nothing wrong with that imo.. as to limit them to one per person? Utopia.. for now.

Grimbeard

Kyronix very rarely says what I want to hear but I don't b/itch or argue when he communicates.ok maybe about top hats You all blabbing the nonsense over and over expecting changes are just getting threads shut down and attacking unpaid volunteers is worse just stop

Lokea

KroDuK said:

Mariah answer was made during an eclipse I believe.. she did not see the sun; that war on third party post from the producer in july 2024.. cuz now it's flirting with false advertissement, (more coming soon) considering kyro answer in this post.

It's not flirting with false advertisement; these kinds of things have been said many times over the last 25+ years, and they are said in the numerous other MMOs that I have played during my decade+ break from UO.

In fact, I came across this recently:

Ultima Online: Kingdom Reborn - UOGuide, the Ultima Online Encyclopedia

How will Kingdom Reborn affect scripting, duping, and other methods of cheating?

• We dislike cheating. In fact, it is a seething, burning, boiling cauldron of dislike. Kingdom Reborn gives us the opportunity to make some changes - which we will not discuss in detail, for obvious reasons - that will make cheating more difficult. These changes will affect the entire UO service, not just users of the new client.

------
And similar things were said about the Third Dawn/3D client as well, and things did happen to scripters/etc., but the problem is that because they don't want to reveal what they are doing (and it's obvious as to why they don't want to reveal what they are doing), unless you see monthly subscriptions and EJ account numbers, you and I will never know if or how successful they are.

The bigger problem is that it's a small team, so it's even harder to find time to keep up with the people violating the TOS (and we have people in this thread admitting to scripting) - even the larger MMOs that have dozens or hundreds on their live teams struggle with this.

Because at the end of the day, when there's easy real-life money to be made, there's going to be people who will exert a lot of effort to get at that money.  That's why you see those third-party sites advertising in general chat (and those messages are obviously scripted). I'm not sure why they are allowed to do that, but whatever.  We have 1-2 programmers, but there are a lot of people dedicated to getting the easy money.

We would all love to see this happen again:

That Time We Burned Down Players’ Houses in Ultima Online | by Tim Cotten | Cotten.IO

"Today’s tale: a technical teardown of burning down cheaters’ houses after finding a “criminal” ring of illegal item dupers."

But that had its own problems, as he mentioned, it was easy for innocent people to get caught up in the situation, who had bought items they didn't know were duped.

Lokea

cansirus said:

It sounds somewhat contradictory to say they're striving for a broader field and blocking third-party clients. It's 2025, and the kids who played UO have grown up. They don't have time to waste endless hours; they just want to go online and have a little fun. Let third-party clients operate, and if it's because of cheating, put in place better rules or only allow one account per IP.

One account per IP would absolutely end UO.  It would prevent my kids and I from playing together, it would prevent a whole lot of couples from playing together (I've attended 3 real-life weddings that grew out of people who met in UO) as well as other families.

And if you told me the average subscriber to UO probably has 3 paid accounts, I would not be surprised in the least, and might even ask if it's that low.

KroDuK

Lokea said:

How will Kingdom Reborn affect scripting, duping, and other methods of cheating?

• We dislike cheating. In fact, it is a seething, burning, boiling cauldron of dislike. Kingdom Reborn gives us the opportunity to make some changes - which we will not discuss in detail, for obvious reasons - that will make cheating more difficult. These changes will affect the entire UO service, not just users of the new client.

I won't answer to everything.. i'll be here for way too long.. u've said too much, in a way that..

for KR cotten was already working on his bitcoin technology.. the tool he gave to the dev team.. is the same he uses for his bitcoin technology.

The opportunity and all was real.. he deliver something next level for the studio.. a HUGE tool that mesanna has use over the year for various *snip* reasons.


He was teasing a super powerful new weapon..

As for all the rest.. I'll just say what was my experience on UO.. I got multiple speed runners banned (these dudes would frame skip on foot and be as fast as my horse.. u would dismount them and lose them, like they were on a server line; even when u could dismount someone while being mounted)

As for the gatherer.. I've reported over the years a tons of them.. they were never seen again.. to the point it was worthing it for me to take a boat and look for miners on a boat to report them.


Was the game 100% clean? Nope.. u could report someone looping (training skill) on a certain navigation line or craftinf stuff in his house 16/7 all the time and they would not get ban.

You could clearly cheat.. there way a grey line under origin then EA.. but it was never the wild west we seeing since mythic and now BS.. imo.. it's even promoted.. sub as much as u can!!

I mean nothing wrong with that.. but if u can't hide them.. u know.. get F.. they can legit flex them.
Some logic in your next post would be nice.. (the more coming soon.. is the false advert part; since Kyro response) without even considering the title "war".. they have nukes.. I understand why they not launching them.. but.. yeah.. soon!

They have all the tools they need to work on that problem (our problem was a solution for them with that culture).. as for the team.. I'm saying it's too big.. time to clear the affiliates; you save money AND you make even more money with a front store.

Lokea

KroDuK said:

The last hope I had for UO was the tim cotten era with SA.. but yeah the more info was coming out the more WTF there was among us (the people i was playing with)
To see him quit the sinking boat 1 year later.. he did great stuff for UO tho (like to combat the non affiliates RMT'ers and/or dupers).. but yeah some of those mechanic.. like imbue and how u acquired ingredient.. was.. then the infamous High Sea.. the "booster pack" to promote their new client.. have you ever try to play on high sea with the CC?

Guess what else u were promoting with some of SA mechanics and the totality of high sea.. like u are with those events..

That era wasn't the last "hope" I had for UO, but it was the last hope I had that UO could start to grow in a meaningful way. This 2006 interview kind of summed it up:

Ultima Online: Kingdom Reborn Interview - News and Siteseeing

FiringSquad:Finally, why do a revamp of UO at all when the team could work on a full sequel to the game which might have better graphical features and more content than the original?
Mark Jacobs: Like Dark Age of Camelot, I think there is still plenty of life left in UO. But let's face it, the current graphics of UO are extremely dated and every year that goes by they look even worse by comparison. However, UO is not ready for the scrap heap. I believe that with a full graphical revamp, as well as the addition of lots of other cool new stuff, we have the chance to attract new players to the game, as well as bring back former subscribers.

That was really the last time that UO had a large enough live team to do bigger things, but they made the decision to not upset those who preferred the CC graphics, which is why we are still have the same conversations 18 years later....  Back then, NL would have been done in under a year (maybe 6-9 months even), but NL took a long time because the current team is small and is juggling a lot of things - current/live events, holiday stuff, anniversary stuff, the day-to-day bug fixes and QOL improvements, etc.

Even if you have problems with the current team, they are keeping a 28 year-old MMO that was originally based on early/mid-1990s tech going. It's pretty amazing.

KroDuK

Lokea said:

That was really the last time that UO had a large enough live team to do bigger things, but they made the decision to not upset those who preferred the CC graphics, which is why we are still have the same conversations 18 years later....  Back then, NL would have been done in under a year (maybe 6-9 months even), but NL took a long time because the current team is small and is juggling a lot of things - current/live events, holiday stuff, anniversary stuff, the day-to-day bug fixes and QOL improvements, etc.

Even if you have problems with the current team, they are keeping a 28 year-old MMO that was originally based on early/mid-1990s tech going. It's pretty amazing.

Well said, but i'm seeing solution here..

Like stop avoiding what i'm saying.. don't you agree this is the perfect timing to rework the Bonnie corporate culture around UO?


You seems aware of the problems and even more stuff (like old interviews)
Since you know Cotten.. you know the tools they got.. don't you agree about free client shard would bring even MORE players.. same for the legit shard with zealous GM?

Or what about the affiliates stuff.. can't be answer publicly.. but u should agree it's great for UO front store would earn even more.. and no need to feed a medium size group.. u could reinvest in more dev power.. 2-3 GM..


Let's agree a tons of mistake were made and keep being done.. nothing that can't be fixed, imo.

Edit: i'm still thinking UO could be in the top 10 MMOrpg.. it doesn't need a huge dev team.. with a vision and the guts.. u could make a couple great move.. like they did recently with a third client (i don't like the facebook validation; web client but it's something HUGE for certain)

username

KroDuK said:

He's saying make them third party legit.. but limit them.. one per person. Give everyone automatization but not an army of bots, u know.

I understand exactly what they're saying but I cannot say what I want to say here... sooo without violating some sort of rules so let's just say the 1 cheat client account per IP clearly won't work. And it's interesting because I would imagine most of the people that use this client would be perfectly happy and laugh at that change, for an obvious reason.

KroDuK

Yeah my bad @username I was white knighting.. I was like maybe he uses google translate and you know different culture. Cuz overall I agree with you and lokea on some of his point.
He said some good stuff tho:

cansirus said:

It sounds somewhat contradictory to say they're striving for a broader field and blocking third-party clients.

We understood the same from kyro.. I was like NOOOOOO!! Do not welcome them! NOT YOU!
You were the one!! *I never thought he would be but we never know!*

Cuz u know kyro never said blocking third party.

cansirus said:

They don't have time to waste endless hours; they just want to go online and have a little fun. Let third-party clients operate,

or even that.. this is as valid as someone who wants to collect stuff online and ban the cheaters auto farming.. or someone that just want to drop real money.. the beauty of UO we have many shards.. i'd say too many.. 1+1.. timing is perfect for huge moves.

PS: u can also talk about the specific.. like that multi client third party before u could launch multiple client on same PC (that was bypassing the limitation before it was lifted)
It was legit for multiboxing.. I was like dude.. the f.. u start doing that.. what is the point.. I wanna play music.. but not watching notes..

Cookie

username said:

If you're so much better than everyone without these programs then you should want them to be removed. So what do you say?

I say, after 5 hours of intense pvp, my wrists are killing me the next day.
There are some repetitive actions I am going to automate, to protect my health.
Even younger players I play with believe this, younger players who have seen their parents get RSI etc. Which I do not have, yet, hopefully. Even playing pc games, pvping, it is important to protect your health.

Cookie

cansirus said:

Kyronix said:

I addressed this during the most recent interview stream - I'm not going to publicly comment on what actions we may or may not be taking with regard to this, other than to say we strive to create as far a playing field as possible and take steps to ensure that whenever we can.

It sounds somewhat contradictory to say they're striving for a broader field and blocking third-party clients. It's 2025, and the kids who played UO have grown up. They don't have time to waste endless hours; they just want to go online and have a little fun. Let third-party clients operate, and if it's because of cheating, put in place better rules or only allow one account per IP.

I love what you wrote, and agree.

Re the 1 account per IP.
3 players genuinely play from my house.
If UO implemented this, I would find a way around it, and believe I was justified.
I do play with my sons when I get a chance, and that is the most fun thing for me, I am not going to let someone else set rules that do not allow me to do that.

And when I am not playing with them, I am paying for 5 accounts, I should be allowed to upgrade and maintain those accounts ingame - Afterall, when I show up to an event, I am paying 5X more than those around me, I need 5X more gear to gear my accounts, and relatively speaking, I get the same amount of rewards as everyone else, per account.