We need new quality mage items

psycho

Unless you are a mid-centery average mage, theres a great need for new quality mage items.

These are the existing ones:

Pretty sure Ive seen these low-quality mage items in use before,

oh yes there it is

Together we make the game greather!
 

Nyre

Forgot the Dragoni Spellbook from a previous event

I would post a Pic of the stats  but I havent figured out how

Oreogl

Is this just for evolving those specific items?

There’s other mage items like the scholars halo, the new armor and wand from last event, dr specters lenses, cuffs of the archmage etc.

You left out so many of the newer items.

keven2002

I'm assuming he's speaking about items that you can get on a semi-regular basis (although rune beetle carapace doesn't spawn so maybe not?).

That said, the halo was left out and the shadowguard mage weap with -0 mage skill (Balaki Staff I think) was also left out...both of which my mages use still. There would also be the Scrapper's that could be added to this list as well as Hook's shield which both are still very easy to obtain and are still relevant in game today.

Oreogl

keven2002 said:

I'm assuming he's speaking about items that you can get on a semi-regular basis (although rune beetle carapace doesn't spawn so maybe not?).

That said, the halo was left out and the shadowguard mage weap with -0 mage skill (Balaki Staff I think) was also left out...both of which my mages use still. There would also be the Scrapper's that could be added to this list as well as Hook's shield which both are still very easy to obtain and are still relevant in game today.

Yeah I wasn’t sure.  I know I still use Hephaestus as a shield even.  But I know there’s a couple generations of gear between those items he posted.


I’m always in favor of new mage gear, but I didn’t know people even still use scrappers.  I use the higher SDI books and wand if needed.

Cookie

Either way, 90% of what has been mentioned, is Mage PvM gear.
Hook's shield, is lovely for pvm for example.
The Spellbooks are also great for PvM.

Pure Mages could use some upgraded PvP gear.

Jewels. Shield. Spellbook for starters.

Jewels - The clean-up set is actually really good for dexxers, and mages for pvm.
Could use a PvP set - as a VvV reward, this is crying out, and so obvious, and don't make them antique pls.
You did release 1 ring, which was quite cool, but needed to be a set, and the matching bracelet was not as good, did not balance properties - having said that - they were decent, but I found it hard to get them into a suit.

Shield. Wooden. Soul Charge 30 + Reactive Paralyse + DCI 15 + Spell Channelling + 0 FC. 
Anything else would be a bonus - Stats, or Eater.
Could be enhanced - as Wooden. Forged Metal Tool of Artifacts.

Spellbook - have posted this before.

I do appreciate the Tunic, and the Gloves. And a couple of other pieces - Artio's sash/Mushroom Belt, Bogling Boots and the Feudal Cloak/Sash.

For PvP Mages, the really important thing to bear in mind, is we are trying to balance properties.
200 LRC on a suit, is a wasted opportunity, if we have 0 Damage Eater.

A lot has improved I think, but my opinion is, other templates are finding it so much easier to get the properties they want.

Hit Points is almost becoming too much now - as in the Max Cap is 25 beyond which point it is wasted.

DCI often over-caps if on ring/brace/shield + Slither, so there is room to get some HCI in.
HCI did appear on the Earrings - does not appear on Shields as a rule. 

Fire Eater, and Damage Eater important, there has been good movement here, but still hard to balance.

Resists always over-cap, we can go less here, to achieve other properties - like Stats, Eaters, Regens, DCI, HCI, SDI cap.

My feeling is, it gets left down to the Jewels, to perform some magical balancing act for the suit, and this area, is just so random - and hard.

psycho

The narrative here is that the mage items ingame are old and we need something new and fancy.

Im sure the devs can come up with some new stuff, with the right name Magician, Magi or Wizzard, that has mage propeties.  Heres one example

It doesnt need to be overpowered, just be an item designed for a mage, any collor that is usefull and take the game forward.

Btw, real mages use wizzard hats, not pirate hats.

Cookie

My favourite head item is the Elf Circlet.

Royal Circlet even - as this has a jewel in it.

And........ any chance of a Back Transmog item - the cloak gets in the way a bit, and the quiver, while nice, isn't the best look for a mage - any chance of a Mage Back-slot item - much for the same reason as the robe went to Epps, for appearances sake?

keven2002

Understand where you are coming from Cookie and I'll default to you (and others like Covenent) on what's what for PvP but from what I've seen/read there really isn't any such thing as a "pure" PvP mage anymore. I think they probably went out of style over a decade ago with bushido/evasion and DP dexers (and parry for mages etc) and the SDI cap happening.

Personally, I think there needs to be some thought put into how the mage skills work (for PvP) more than the items available.

Cookie

keven2002 said:

Understand where you are coming from Cookie and I'll default to you (and others like Covenent) on what's what for PvP but from what I've seen/read there really isn't any such thing as a "pure" PvP mage anymore. I think they probably went out of style over a decade ago with bushido/evasion and DP dexers (and parry for mages etc) and the SDI cap happening.

Personally, I think there needs to be some thought put into how the mage skills work (for PvP) more than the items available.

Don't disagree.

We would exist, if we could, we never went out of style, we were nerfed into extinction...

Oreogl

Cookie said:

keven2002 said:

Understand where you are coming from Cookie and I'll default to you (and others like Covenent) on what's what for PvP but from what I've seen/read there really isn't any such thing as a "pure" PvP mage anymore. I think they probably went out of style over a decade ago with bushido/evasion and DP dexers (and parry for mages etc) and the SDI cap happening.

Personally, I think there needs to be some thought put into how the mage skills work (for PvP) more than the items available.

Don't disagree.

We would exist, if we could, we never went out of style, we were nerfed into extinction...

This is accurate.  It’s virtually impossible to play just a pure mage now.

The closest you’ll get is what, a parry wrestle mage?  And that’s with an SDI nerf.


I’ve used parry for as long as I can remember on my mage(s).  A minimum rolling around with a weapon in hand, ie bokuto, so I dont/didn’t get completely smoked out of the gates lol.

sibble

The actual problem is with parry mages being too strong.

Until parry mages are balanced, any buffs to mages in general will carry over to buffing parry mages.

Meaning, you want to make pure mages stronger...  so you buff pure mages by adding sick artifacts, then parry mages inherently become stronger as well because they also benefit from the new mage items *in most cases*

All they have to do is decrease block chance from parry if you also have mage skills, or make it so you can't use bushido evasion if you have magery etc.

Oreogl

sibble said:

The actual problem is with parry mages being too strong.

Until parry mages are nerfed, any addition to mage artifacts will also carry over to parry mages.

Meaning, you want to make pure mages stronger...  so you buff pure mages by adding sick artifacts, then parry mages inherently become stronger as well because they also benefit from the new mage items *in most cases*

All they have to do is decrease block chance from parry if you also have mage skills, or make it so you can't use bushido evasion if you have magery etc.

What in your mind consists of being too strong? 

Too strong as is you can’t mow them down in 10 seconds or?

sibble

Oreogl said:

sibble said:

The actual problem is with parry mages being too strong.

Until parry mages are nerfed, any addition to mage artifacts will also carry over to parry mages.

Meaning, you want to make pure mages stronger...  so you buff pure mages by adding sick artifacts, then parry mages inherently become stronger as well because they also benefit from the new mage items *in most cases*

All they have to do is decrease block chance from parry if you also have mage skills, or make it so you can't use bushido evasion if you have magery etc.

What I’m your mind consists of being too strong? 

Too strong as is you can’t mow them down in 10 seconds or?

Can't mow them down in 10 seconds?  I'll take this as poor sarcasm.

You put a parry mage versus any weapon-focused template in the game and the weapon template will sit there missing while the parry mage freely casts.

Naturally there will always be templates that counter other templates, but not to this extent - this is an example of unbalanced.

Oreogl

sibble said:

Oreogl said:

sibble said:

The actual problem is with parry mages being too strong.

Until parry mages are nerfed, any addition to mage artifacts will also carry over to parry mages.

Meaning, you want to make pure mages stronger...  so you buff pure mages by adding sick artifacts, then parry mages inherently become stronger as well because they also benefit from the new mage items *in most cases*

All they have to do is decrease block chance from parry if you also have mage skills, or make it so you can't use bushido evasion if you have magery etc.

What I’m your mind consists of being too strong? 

Too strong as is you can’t mow them down in 10 seconds or?

Can't mow them down in 10 seconds?  I'll take this as poor sarcasm.

You put a parry mage versus any weapon-focused template in the game and the weapon template will sit there missing while the parry mage freely casts.

Naturally there will always be templates that counter other templates, but not to this extent - this is an example of unbalanced.

It’s a capped 67.5% blocking which requires wrestling and/or weapon skill - mage weapon.

Similarly it’s like asking to nerf dex templates because you chose not to use parry.

The parry nerf has been a request, of which I assume are dex templates, for years.  I’ve always made the argument for
damage output in these scenarios.

Some templates I do believe probably do need nerfed, like using evasion with Margery. However stand alone parry does not regardless of template.

Cookie

Ask why the mages need parry.

psycho

Originally the OP (that would be me) asked for new and fancy mage items.

For PvP there are hard caps, I didnt ask to change any of them.

You can add all the magical propeties in the world to an item, but it would still be limited by hard caps, thus introducing new and fancy items wouldnt hurt pvp nor the templates people chose to play.

Thank you

  (none of you wins)

sibble

Oreogl said:

It’s a capped 67.5% blocking which requires wrestling and/or weapon skill - mage weapon.

Similarly it’s like asking to nerf dex templates because you chose not to use parry.

The parry nerf has been a request, of which I assume are dex templates, for years.  I’ve always made the argument for
damage output in these scenarios.

Some templates I do believe probably do need nerfed, like using evasion with Margery. However stand alone parry does not regardless of template.

Well first you have your weapon hit/miss chance calculation based on each's weapon skill - mages being either wrestling, weapon skill, or mage weapon - oh and if they have Anatomy instead that just magically works as a having weapon defense as well, neato how mages have all these options for weapon defense huh

Then you have DCI/HCI calcs.

THEN you have block chance calcs.

Cookie said:

Ask why the mages need parry.

I didn't say remove parry completely from mages, I simply asked for a decrease in block chance if you have parry + magery.  This isn't a game breaking change. I'm talking -15% -20% difference.

Oreogl

Cookie said:

Ask why the mages need parry.

This is pretty much it.

Stand alone parry is 35% and weapon skill alone is 50%.

So a 2 second swing with AI hit spell splinter DP hld and whatever else you manage to stack is just absolutely devastating.  

You’re going to get absolutely wrecked with out it.

Oreogl

sibble said:

Oreogl said:

It’s a capped 67.5% blocking which requires wrestling and/or weapon skill - mage weapon.

Similarly it’s like asking to nerf dex templates because you chose not to use parry.

The parry nerf has been a request, of which I assume are dex templates, for years.  I’ve always made the argument for
damage output in these scenarios.

Some templates I do believe probably do need nerfed, like using evasion with Margery. However stand alone parry does not regardless of template.

Well first you have your weapon hit/miss chance calculation based on each's weapon skill - mages being either wrestling, weapon skill, or mage weapon

Then you have DCI/HCI calcs.

THEN you have block chance calcs.

Cookie said:

Ask why the mages need parry.

I didn't say remove parry completely from mages, I simply asked for a decrease in block chance if you have parry + magery.  This isn't a game breaking change. I'm talking -15% -20% difference.

The dci/hci and weapon skill discussion is disingenuous.  No one is rolling with anything less than cap.

If they are, then I guarantee this isn’t even a discussion we even need to be having.


Edit:  you want parry to be nerfed down to 15/20%?  Why even have it then that gives a 60% block with 120 points of skill.  Crazy talk 

sibble

psycho said:

You can add all the magical propeties in the world to an item, but it would still be limited by hard caps, thus introducing new and fancy items wouldnt hurt pvp nor the templates people chose to play.

There is no cap on +skill.  You add properties to items, then you open up for +skill potential on jewels.

Oreogl said:

Edit:  you want parry to be nerfed down to 15/20%?  Why even have it then that gives a 60% block with 120 points of skill.  Crazy talk 

I said -15% to -20%, as an adjustment, not a fixed value.  Please read more carefully.

None has yet to dispute the fact that a parry mage will freely cast against a dexer and the dexer will sit there swinging and missing.  The two options a dexer has versus a parry mage is either run or sit and die.  That's not balance.

Oreogl

sibble said:

psycho said:

You can add all the magical propeties in the world to an item, but it would still be limited by hard caps, thus introducing new and fancy items wouldnt hurt pvp nor the templates people chose to play.

There is no cap on +skill.  You add properties to items, then you open up for +skill potential on jewels.

Oreogl said:

Edit:  you want parry to be nerfed down to 15/20%?  Why even have it then that gives a 60% block with 120 points of skill.  Crazy talk 

I said -15% to -20%, as an adjustment, not a fixed value.  Please read more carefully.

None has yet to dispute the fact that a parry mage will freely cast against a dexer and the dexer will sit there swinging and missing.  The two options a dexer has versus a parry mage is either run or sit and die.  That's not balance.

35% block minus 15% or 20% is a fixed value of either 20/15% parry.    

so weapon skill block 50 + (50*.2)= 60%.

but if this is not what you mean, then please explain the adjustment.  What exactly are you taking 15-20% off from.

Any way you look at the adjustment in any terms you mean in, is over nerfing a template that has been nerfed many times over the years.

No one sits there and never gets hit while casting.    It’s not meant to be easy mode for dex templates.

Cookie

sibble said:

Cookie said:

Ask why the mages need parry.

I didn't say remove parry completely from mages, I simply asked for a decrease in block chance if you have parry + magery.  This isn't a game breaking change. I'm talking -15% -20% difference.

I was saying this to someone the other day. Mages have already been nerfed through the roof relating to shields and parry. It is already game-breaking.

Reviewing the disadvantages already added to mages with shields, or parry, some since the start of the game, so long ago, many of you even forget their existence.

1. Shields have to have spell channelling on, to be able to use a shield. This loses a mage 1 property on their suit vs a Dexxer.

2. Spell Channelling comes hand in hand with -1 FC. To counter-balance this with +1 FC somewhere uses up 1 more property on their suit vs a Dexxer.

3. A Parry Mage, needs 84 Dexterity, to use a shield post Curse to max effect. This is 84 Dex the Mage has no other use for at all. Dexxers are able to use all their Stats, even Mana, is used for their weapon specials - whereas Parry mages are sat on 84 redundant stats.

4. Those 84 Dexterity points, are taken out of a Mages mana pool, meaning less spells able to be cast.

5. Having used 84 stats in Dexterity. Parry Mages will find it almost impossible to meet the 150 Int Stat property, to meet their maximum SDI output target {Remembering ALL pvp templates need 150 Hit Points}. Warriors never have any issues meeting their Dex requirements.

6. Parry has been added to the list of skills that neutralises Focused Mage, so they are hit with -5% from their SDI cap, so a SECOND SDI hit.

7. By being forced to have Parry - Pure Mages are losing out on a wider more Mage focussed skill-set.

So in summary, mages have lost - 2 properties on their suit, 84 useless Stats, 84 mana pool, Int cap related SDI, and a further 5% SDI, and the ability to have a whole entire pure mage related additional skill, that is not just sat there on top of Wrestling for defence - TWO skills needed just for physical defence...

I think Warriors forget just how hard Mages have been nerfed.
And the answer as to why...

It  is because warriors do so much damage output for pvm, this then hits the mages, who need defensive abilities to manage the amount of nuking they receive - hence parry. It is not parry that needs a nerf, it is the warriors damage output, then parry can be toned down, then mages are not forced to use parry, and mages can re-balance.

Mages cannot get anything like as close as warriors do in pvm damage...

sibble

Oreogl said:

35% block minus 15% or 20% is a fixed value of either 20/15% parry.    

What is 15% of 35?  What is 20% of 35?

Subtract those values from 35 you end up with 28%-30%

Again, I'm not asking to nerf parry mages into the ground.  I'm asking for a balance adjustment to parry mages before you buff mages.

Oreogl said:

No one sits there and never gets hit while casting.    It’s not meant to be easy mode for dex templates.

You're right no one sits there and gets hit while casting.  They literally have no other option than to run away.  So an adjustment to block chance of about 5-7% will make parry mages easy mode for dex templates?  Is that what you're saying?

Oreogl

sibble said:

Oreogl said:

35% block minus 15% or 20% is a fixed value of either 20/15% parry.    

What is 15% of 35?  What is 20% of 35?

Subtract those values from 35 you end up with 28%-30%

Again, I'm not asking to nerf parry mages into the ground.

Given 35% is the value, I had little expectation you were taking a percentage of a percent.  My mistake I guess.

This would be, as you noted, 5-7% reduction, bringing the block chance to 64/65% after weapon skill.  I did not seem logical this is what you were asking for, I remain skeptical.

sibble

Cookie said:

Mages cannot get anything like as close as warriors do in pvm damage...

That's the thing about trying to balance PVP or PVM, one will always affect the other.

Yes I agree with you that it's easier for a warrior to do more damage in PVM than it is for a mage.

Having parry mage templates myself, I'm fully aware of the sacrifices mages must take in order to get that full block chance.

As a main dexer, there were too many times I can just stand next to a parry mage swinging and do nothing to them.  There is no sane reason a dexer would try to fight a parry mage.  All I'm asking is for a small PVP adjustment in block chance for parry mages and maybe look at bushido evasion.

I personally love it when they add new artifacts that open up properties so you can add +skill to jewels, it adds to diversity, it opens up new possibilities in templates, etc.

Cookie

sibble said:

Cookie said:

Mages cannot get anything like as close as warriors do in pvm damage...

That's the thing about trying to balance PVP or PVM, one will always affect the other.

Yes I agree with you that it's easier for a warrior to do more damage in PVM than it is for a mage.

When you think about the Mage, and the Warrior concept, how do you see it?

Do warriors have unlimited stamina, hacking ability and damage output in battle?
Do they vastly outperform mages?

I believe, in the same way Mages use mana for spells, warriors should be using stamina, there should be a limit on their damage output abilities.

This would actually balance everything - pvm, and pvp.

The entire issue stems from a conceptual flaw in the initial design of UO warriors.

sibble

Cookie said:

When you think about the Mage, and the Warrior concept, how do you see it?

Do warriors have unlimited stamina, hacking ability and damage output in battle?
Do they vastly outperform mages?

I believe, in the same way Mages use mana for spells, warriors should be using stamina, there should be a limit on their damage output abilities.

This would actually balance everything - pvm, and pvp.

The entire issue stems from a conceptual flaw in the initial design of UO warriors.

The fact that mage spells can't miss and weapons do will forever create an apples to oranges comparison for this discussion.

Don't forget that weapon abilities use mana too, even more when you chain abilities.

Oreogl

sibble said:

Cookie said:

When you think about the Mage, and the Warrior concept, how do you see it?

Do warriors have unlimited stamina, hacking ability and damage output in battle?
Do they vastly outperform mages?

I believe, in the same way Mages use mana for spells, warriors should be using stamina, there should be a limit on their damage output abilities.

This would actually balance everything - pvm, and pvp.

The entire issue stems from a conceptual flaw in the initial design of UO warriors.

The fact that mage spells can't miss and weapons do will forever create an apples to oranges comparison for this discussion.

Don't forget that weapon abilities use mana too, even more when you chain abilities.

Miss and interrupted are the trade off mechanics.

Cookie

sibble said:

Cookie said:

When you think about the Mage, and the Warrior concept, how do you see it?

Do warriors have unlimited stamina, hacking ability and damage output in battle?
Do they vastly outperform mages?

I believe, in the same way Mages use mana for spells, warriors should be using stamina, there should be a limit on their damage output abilities.

This would actually balance everything - pvm, and pvp.

The entire issue stems from a conceptual flaw in the initial design of UO warriors.

The fact that mage spells can't miss and weapons do will forever create an apples to oranges comparison for this discussion.

Don't forget that weapon abilities use mana too, even more when you chain abilities.

Mage Spells cannot miss?

What do you think Magic Resist is? You should see how many times I have to cast poison sometimes before it lands... {and then of course - 2 types of different consumables wipe out a mages most powerful spell instantly}.

What do you think Evasion is ?

Mages also get disturbed, physically, or with spells.

Mages also have line of sight, and range issues.

Mages also have to stand still to cast.

There are many specials that prevent a mages casting.

I do not buy the mages cannot miss theory, at all.

It's a bit like saying, Warriors cannot miss, if the target is standing still, no wrestle, no parry, no dci etc.


I'm sorry, you have just added to the argument Warriors have far too many defences and protection compared to Mages.

sibble

Oreogl said:

Miss and interrupted are the trade off mechanics.

Agreed, it is a trade off mechanic.

However, mages can decrease the chance that they are interrupted by:
 1 - Including weapon skill
 2 - Adding Anatomy
 3 - Adding Wrestling

 4 - Using Mage weapon

 5 - Adding Parry

Cookie said:

Mages also have line of sight, and range issues.

And warriors have to be within 1 tile to even get a chance of swinging.

We can go back and forth all day here.