Newsletter 18

Oreogl

CovenantX said:

Oreogl said:

AtomicBetty said:

You can't worry about one versus one fights lol.

MMO's can't be balanced around that.

This is it right here.  You can’t balance a whole dynamic based on a one v one.

One vs one is incredibly rare, unless you’re specifically dueling.  Which in most cases they just spam DP, splinter, and or bleed which is effective.

  You can't balance pvp based around one vs one fights?  That's the problem it hasn't been.

I can't blame you for thinking that, there are very few one vs one fights left in UO. especially when the cheats do much of the gameplay for most of the players left... anyway.

There's always something based around group pvp mostly survival/defensive, Parry/evade (mages only) the first time it was ''nerfed" (It was completely taken away from mages, only added a cooldown to Evasion for anything else that could use it)....   you know, back when nerve-mages were king the first time?   that was during the SSI bug too. (though not exclusive to dexers)   disarm didn't have an immunity timer back then either, it does now.  which makes evade/parry mages even better today, vs dexers the first time they were 'OP'.... 

  Those 'dueling rules' sound like field fighting to me.  normally duels would remove as much RNG from the fight as possible, that's always been the point of a duel, to see who is better,, not who is luckier.... anyway, not what I'm referring to  Parry doesn't have an effect on proper mage dueling anyway so it's irrelevant to the point I'm making.

Well it’s not so much that it’s “not that way anymore” so much as it’s never been that way really.

mage duels we’re generally about who was better depending on template and rules.  More specifically straight mage duels no pots determined skill.

anything else was RNG and luck.

Oreogl

CovenantX said:

Oreogl said:

CovenantX said:

Oreogl said:

It’s been this way for a while based on my PVP experience, but generally the only way to remotely survive in group PVP is parry as it is playing a mage.  I wouldn’t say it’s anywhere near God mode.  Evasion though, I feel, should be nerfed in PvP altogether.

    I'm referring to one vs one fights,   a parry-mage basically has god-mode in that instance against any dexer, particularly melee..

 Group fights, generally you need to run...until you can pick parts of the group off.

  I'm not worried about evasion, you can still interrupt mages while their under the effects of evasion,  and they're still disarm-able as a weakness to dexers (even though they can parry the disarm)   -plus you can see and/or hear, when evasion gets activated so you should know when not to waste mana on damaging spells while you know evade is still active, and spells don't just get blocked 35% of the time, passively just for having the skill.

 

Parry isnt really going to be 35%.  If you’re only running parry you’re gonna get wrecked pretty hard.  Realistically it’s 17.5% after weapon skill, mage weapon, or wrestling. The trade off is the SDI nerf mages get for having parry.

   You mean, parry would never be less than 35% (if you're 120.0 Parry and meet the 80 dex requirement), the only reason it SEEMS less, is because DCI/Dodge chance, is checked first....   so you'll see your parry rate is less.

 

    even if you run with 0 weapon skill, you'll still dodge 1/20 attacks, parry would still have a 35% chance to block on it's own.

 

   the 17.5% you're talking about is the average amount of Extra attacks you're not taking damage from, beyond just your defensive weapon skill.

Well yeah running nothing else but parry it’s 35%.  No one is doing this though, you’ll get absolutely smashed.

either way mechanics check skill first as long as you meet dci 80 dex etc so it’s 50% block then parry is 50*.35.  

(50+(50*.35))=67.5

Oreogl

keven2002 said:

CovenantX said:

You can't balance pvp based around one vs one fights?  That's the problem it hasn't been.

I can't blame you for thinking that, there are very few one vs one fights left in UO. especially when the cheats do much of the gameplay for most of the players left... anyway.

^^ This ^^

I agree with you. I used to love PvP because it took some skill / practice to get good at (at the time I was playing UO a ton so I had the practice lol). I remember sparring / dueling all the time just for practice; the winner would rez the loser and there was mutual respect. It would even be the case that if someone tried to jump in the 1 on 1 that the other person would stop fighting completely or both people dueling would gank the person interrupting the fight. Good times.

Even when people were using like the T1 connections from schools and were faster, having a strategy or being able to think on the fly would still keep someone in the fight.

At some point that all changed. They introduce dueling arena's (which actually seem like a pretty cool idea) for sanctioned fights but I'm guessing that's because somewhere along the line people lost honor and couldn't be trusted to be honest. I think also along with that came the scripting from some of those same dishonorable people. It took all the skill out out of PvP and it became my script vs your script which I guess become less strategic so now you need group battles to call out who to focus on.

Now all I see is the trash talk in Gen Chat about people dodging 1 on 1 and arguing about who won and who had the numbers. It's enough to make me turn off GenChat half the time (or place people on ignore if it's only 1 or 2).

Making changes based on 1 on 1 vs group fighting in the grand scheme won't fix toxicity that has become UO PvP. I just hope that the changes don't spill over into PvM (like evade did several years ago).

Yeah I don’t know when the 3rd party programs evolved to what they are now, but even back as far as I remember it’s been speed hacking and modding mul files to run through trees etc etc.

the demise of factions really took a big hit interest but still did with a few guys here and there.  They over time moved on and it entailed me running all over trying to separate one from the group to try and drop them. Sometimes two.

the majority of the time though it was me getting dismount ganked followed by trash talking in gen chat lol

CovenantX

Oreogl said:

Well it’s not so much that it’s “not that way anymore” so much as it’s never been that way really.

mage duels we’re generally about who was better depending on template and rules.  More specifically straight mage duels no pots determined skill.

anything else was RNG and luck.

  Also, most games that pvp is an option (all games that I know of) are always balanced based around one vs one combat, it doesn't mean they're perfect, it means that one skill / item, isn't going to be what determines how many players one player can successfully beat without the use of other utility/options available to them.

  The only times UO had gamebreaking imbalances, were when Casters (Mages) had access to parry, outside of any bug-related reasons for something clearly being broken. such as the SSI bug,  auto-hit on spell cast (see WoD-Archers ~2007-ish when that was fixed), anyone with less than 140 HP, could not survive the attacks RNG wasn't even involved in it),

It's counter-productive to have a 'weakness' to a skill based around something the skill is already designed to be strong against   -Disarm vs Parry.  -Maybe it's time to restore the anti-disarm mechanic to Weapon skill Masteries, and completely remove the disarm immunity timer.  

 Sort of like Mysticism's "Stone Form", and the only real weakness is Purge Magic (Also a mystic spell),, who comes up with this?

Oreogl

CovenantX said:

Oreogl said:

Well it’s not so much that it’s “not that way anymore” so much as it’s never been that way really.

mage duels we’re generally about who was better depending on template and rules.  More specifically straight mage duels no pots determined skill.

anything else was RNG and luck.

  Also, most games that pvp is an option (all games that I know of) are always balanced based around one vs one combat, it doesn't mean they're perfect, it means that one skill / item, isn't going to be what determines how many players one player can successfully beat without the use of other utility/options available to them.

  The only times UO had gamebreaking imbalances, were when Casters (Mages) had access to parry, outside of any bug-related reasons for something clearly being broken. such as the SSI bug,  auto-hit on spell cast (see WoD-Archers ~2007-ish when that was fixed), anyone with less than 140 HP, could not survive the attacks RNG wasn't even involved in it),

It's counter-productive to have a 'weakness' to a skill based around something the skill is already designed to be strong against   -Disarm vs Parry.  -Maybe it's time to restore the anti-disarm mechanic to Weapon skill Masteries, and completely remove the disarm immunity timer.  

 Sort of like Mysticism's "Stone Form", and the only real weakness is Purge Magic (Also a mystic spell),, who comes up with this?

A lot of games I’ve played PVP on have different mechanics and are heavily opt in etc.

I recall being mowed down with running shot from two archers.  No other buttons just mashing running shot, where it wasn’t quite enough for one to do the job but two you died pretty quickly. They then nerfed it but is an example of a group dynamic nerf.  

There were so many like spellweaving when it came out and deathstrike and the addition of Glenda and then the berserk gear. Etc etc

Agreed though stone form sucks.

keven2002

Oreogl said:

I recall being mowed down with running shot from two archers.  No other buttons just mashing running shot, where it wasn’t quite enough for one to do the job but two you died pretty quickly. They then nerfed it but is an example of a group dynamic nerf.  

The last time I was raided at a champ spawn (probably was 3-4 years ago at this point) the single raider used this tactic. Granted I was on my sampire without any real pvp setup but they disarmed me (with a war fork IIRC) and switched over to a comp bow and spammed moving shot. Completely mowed me down and I had no chance to escape (and I tried running as soon as I was disarmed). It felt like they were scripting with how seamless everything was and how they were able to stay on the screen close enough to shoot me 5-6 times before I could re-arm a weapon but maybe I'm just that out of touch with PvP.

It was one of the few times I really thought to myself "wow wtf just happened - was that even legal?" when I died lol.

CovenantX

Oreogl said:

I recall being mowed down with running shot from two archers.  No other buttons just mashing running shot, where it wasn’t quite enough for one to do the job but two you died pretty quickly. They then nerfed it but is an example of a group dynamic nerf. 

   Yea, I do too, but not in many years (definitely before Parry was usable on mages for the 2nd time), Ironically enough, dexers were more dangerous back then, before suits were all capped out in every single essential property. (before global loot and during imbuing it was even more common), most of them couldn't swing quite as fast as today (literally 0.25s-0.50s slower w/comp-bow,normally you were still bleeding & disarmed during running shots anyway) magical shortbows weren't any slower than they are now. but they sure hit much harder. before the weapon revamp like most weapons did.   It always still took 2 or more archers though.   literally the only time I remember archers actually doing good in one vs one, was before AI/lightening strikes were capped at 35, though that wasn't just in part because of high damage (50-65 w/out hit-spell)... which was also during the SSI bug, where toggling a special on or off, would instantly cause you to swing your weapon, regardless of your dex/stam or +SSI.

I remember feeling like Throwers were 'OP' around 10-12 years ago or so, but with how gear & parry is now, they wouldn't be OP by any means if the nerfs made to them at the time were reverted today, obviously they'd still be underwhelming when parry is used against them, but all dexers already are so that's nothing new.  

Oreogl

keven2002 said:

Oreogl said:

I recall being mowed down with running shot from two archers.  No other buttons just mashing running shot, where it wasn’t quite enough for one to do the job but two you died pretty quickly. They then nerfed it but is an example of a group dynamic nerf.  

The last time I was raided at a champ spawn (probably was 3-4 years ago at this point) the single raider used this tactic. Granted I was on my sampire without any real pvp setup but they disarmed me (with a war fork IIRC) and switched over to a comp bow and spammed moving shot. Completely mowed me down and I had no chance to escape (and I tried running as soon as I was disarmed). It felt like they were scripting with how seamless everything was and how they were able to stay on the screen close enough to shoot me 5-6 times before I could re-arm a weapon but maybe I'm just that out of touch with PvP.

It was one of the few times I really thought to myself "wow wtf just happened - was that even legal?" when I died lol.

Lol.  Yeah, I’ve been there too.  Disarmed and they mashed AI and running shot, my sampire died quickly.

Oreogl

CovenantX said:

Oreogl said:

I recall being mowed down with running shot from two archers.  No other buttons just mashing running shot, where it wasn’t quite enough for one to do the job but two you died pretty quickly. They then nerfed it but is an example of a group dynamic nerf. 

   Yea, I do too, but not in many years (definitely before Parry was usable on mages for the 2nd time), Ironically enough, dexers were more dangerous back then, before suits were all capped out in every single essential property. (before global loot and during imbuing it was even more common), most of them couldn't swing quite as fast as today (literally 0.25s-0.50s slower w/comp-bow,normally you were still bleeding & disarmed during running shots anyway) magical shortbows weren't any slower than they are now. but they sure hit much harder. before the weapon revamp like most weapons did.   It always still took 2 or more archers though.   literally the only time I remember archers actually doing good in one vs one, was before AI/lightening strikes were capped at 35, though that wasn't just in part because of high damage (50-65 w/out hit-spell)... which was also during the SSI bug, where toggling a special on or off, would instantly cause you to swing your weapon, regardless of your dex/stam or +SSI.

I remember feeling like Throwers were 'OP' around 10-12 years ago or so, but with how gear & parry is now, they wouldn't be OP by any means if the nerfs made to them at the time were reverted today, obviously they'd still be underwhelming when parry is used against them, but all dexers already are so that's nothing new.  

Yeah when they came out, and I assume it’s still this way though I vaguely recall them possibly tweaking it, they had the extra 5? hci cap or something.  Plus range of a one handed weapon, like the glaive with a higher base damage than a comp bow etc.  definitely a mechanical disadvantage sticking with an archer, and no mount required.

hands down still probably one of the better templates, which is probably why most dismounters turned into gargoyles.

Guessing it’s still this way. 

CovenantX

Oreogl said:

hands down still probably one of the better templates, which is probably why most dismounters turned into gargoyles.

Guessing it’s still this way. 

    most dismounters are gargoyles because you can toggle on dismount while flying, you don't have to be on foot to toggle it on, doing so eliminates to swing delay (0.25s) when you toggle a special on.      Archers that dismount people usually get on foot, toggle dismount on and remount, so they can shoot immediately once they jump off mount without the swing delay... it's easy to get out of range of an archer's dismount if they don't do it that way,

  not to mention the gargoyle's dismount weapon (cyclone) is faster than archery dismount wep, but it's not too often you'd get to attack twice before the target is out of range anyway.

Oreogl

CovenantX said:

Oreogl said:

hands down still probably one of the better templates, which is probably why most dismounters turned into gargoyles.

Guessing it’s still this way. 

    most dismounters are gargoyles because you can toggle on dismount while flying, you don't have to be on foot to toggle it on, doing so eliminates to swing delay (0.25s) when you toggle a special on.      Archers that dismount people usually get on foot, toggle dismount on and remount, so they can shoot immediately once they jump off mount without the swing delay... it's easy to get out of range of an archer's dismount if they don't do it that way,

  not to mention the gargoyle's dismount weapon (cyclone) is faster than archery dismount wep, but it's not too often you'd get to attack twice before the target is out of range anyway.

Just to note, humans / elf’s can toggle dismount by dismounting themselves, toggle to dismount macro, then remount and dismount when you’re ready to try it.  So if you tried and failed you’d just mash the button again before remounting.

It keeps it active while mounted.  But yes gargoyles weapons seem way more efficient/ effective for it.   Their range is also 9 vs a heavy crossbow of 8.