Economy and Gold Sinks Added?

okcha

I have noticed that the Economy in UO is really out of control almost to a point where it might push players to go buy gold from 3rd party sites or even not play, has there been any thoughts or discussions on possibly adding gold sinks into the game bring the game economy to a normal level? Thoughts??

Tim

Many Many Many Times 

Urge

I don't understand why everyone thinks they need so much gold.

 I play a few hours a week and made a couple plat last year. Gold is extremely easy to make.

Lord_Frodo

Tim said:

Many Many Many Times 

You need a few more MANIES 

AtomicBetty

So you want a gold sink added and if it is at all effective will push more people towards buying gold from 3rd party sites and increase the price of gold?

Venom

It does seem like a gold sink would be a hard balance. If you're increasing gold costs to players, that may disproportionately affect those with gold issues. While I could potentially see the cost of items going down, it may be the same issue where you need to effectively do the same work - or more - to get that "lower" price. 

Kyronix

We are always evaluating new ways to pull gold out of the economy.  Understand though, that after 25+ years we are in a unique situation where decades of inflation and design choices have lead to less and less money coming out of the economy. 

I actually had a very lengthy conversation about this with an old friend of mine while she was studying at the London School of Economics.  One of the main factors is the lack of what she called "the UO oil change".  For example, at one point, every spell in the game required reagents to cast.  While it was possible to collect one's own reagents for free (from a variety of systems) the majority of players purchased these items from NPC shopkeepers, pulling gold out of the economy.  Since the implementation of 100% LRC this exit stream no longer really exists.  The more and more things like this that did exist, that no longer exist, conflate the problem.

There's no magic bullet here, but it's something we evaluate on a continuing basis.

Jepeth

It wouldn’t solve the problem alone, but I’d love to see a return to reagent use as an expansion beyond what LRC offers. A reagent cast spell does 10% more SDI or is cast at non-Protection speed. You can still use LRC, and many would, but the min/maxers would foot the bill.

Much like the chivalry tithe cost I could see a similar cost introduced for necromancy. Staying in Vampiric Embrace draws down “constitution” which then requires gold to restore or pay for a blood transfusion, etc. 

Whitewolf

Kyronix said:

We are always evaluating new ways to pull gold out of the economy.  Understand though, that after 25+ years we are in a unique situation where decades of inflation and design choices have lead to less and less money coming out of the economy. 

I actually had a very lengthy conversation about this with an old friend of mine while she was studying at the London School of Economics.  One of the main factors is the lack of what she called "the UO oil change".  For example, at one point, every spell in the game required reagents to cast.  While it was possible to collect one's own reagents for free (from a variety of systems) the majority of players purchased these items from NPC shopkeepers, pulling gold out of the economy.  Since the implementation of 100% LRC this exit stream no longer really exists.  The more and more things like this that did exist, that no longer exist, conflate the problem.

There's no magic bullet here, but it's something we evaluate on a continuing basis.

well that an item insurance, and the introduction of magic items, people no longer buying GM made armor and weps like they did and the refusal to crack down on gold sellers and shutting down the gold sellers web sites which i know for a fact can be done, blizzard does it very well.

Mene_Drachenfels

Kyronix said:

We are always evaluating new ways to pull gold out of the economy.  Understand though, that after 25+ years we are in a unique situation where decades of inflation and design choices have lead to less and less money coming out of the economy. 

I actually had a very lengthy conversation about this with an old friend of mine while she was studying at the London School of Economics.  One of the main factors is the lack of what she called "the UO oil change".  For example, at one point, every spell in the game required reagents to cast.  While it was possible to collect one's own reagents for free (from a variety of systems) the majority of players purchased these items from NPC shopkeepers, pulling gold out of the economy.  Since the implementation of 100% LRC this exit stream no longer really exists.  The more and more things like this that did exist, that no longer exist, conflate the problem.

There's no magic bullet here, but it's something we evaluate on a continuing basis.

We still have the "UO oil change" in the game - here you simply have to take a closer look at who actually needs reagents in this game - to stick with this example.

The patent remedies have actually been around for a long time - what would need to be adapted are the quantities immediately available for the player to play or work with sensibly without immediately losing patience. This game doesn't serve us everything on a silver platter, but in my opinion it doesn't have to.

 

Mage reagents, for example: It's certainly true that when LRC Armour didn't yet exist, every Mage had to carry the appropriate regs for the spells in their bag. However, this always meant the risk of losing the regs again and again if you were killed - whether by monsters or players - and having to get them again. For Spellcasters > Mages, Necromancers, Mystics and Spellweavers - LRC was and is a great relief and one less thing I have to worry about as a player in the game.

 

The situation is different for my workers, especially for workers who have learnt Inscription or Alchemy. These professions still need huge amounts of reagents to write scrolls, rune books or atlases, for example, or to make potions for kegs. The regs still have to be bought from the vendor, and what slows things down here is simply the fact that the supply is limited to 20 pieces at the beginning, and the quantity has to be bought up first. In the early days of UO, faction vendors always covered this quite well, now you just have to go to the individual shops in the cities. And there is often a waiting period in between before the quantity is increased. Iron and wood are sold in the game in larger quantities of 500 pieces and there is no waiting time between purchases. So why not do the same for all magic reagents? And please remember: spells are not only cast by the mages here, but also by necromancers, mystics and spellweavers.

And another piece of info:

Reagiances themselves currently also drop when you lift T-Maps or do Grizelda's Hag Quest, but these are minimal amounts - Grizelda always gives you 30 each of the normal "old" reagents as a reward, but no Necro Regs or Mystic Reags. Liches have necro regs in their loot, and if you're looking for regs for the mystics, you have to know exactly which monsters have them as loot.

Edit:

On the other hand, reagents that you need to improve your stuff here - keyword Imbuing Regs - drop in extremely modest numbers. However, these regs are in great demand, and this is also something that players here have been able to use to make vast amounts of gold, which has not immediately flowed out of the game again and with which they have also created a trading monopoly in some cases. The market economy doesn't work much differently here than in the "real" world.

But if you don't want such monopolists to rule this gaming world, there are really only two options:
Either I, as a producer, make sure that the supply is right so that a lot of people have something of it and, if necessary, provide appropriate disposal options if something becomes too much - an example here would be Clean-up-Britannia or Item-Turn-In, which is always well received in any case. Or I can beat these monopolists at their own game by creating a better monopoly that can actually extract gold from the game - for example, this could be a large in-game shop where the most popular player artefacts are offered for gold at playable prices.

popps

Jepeth said:

It wouldn’t solve the problem alone, but I’d love to see a return to reagent use as an expansion beyond what LRC offers. A reagent cast spell does 10% more SDI or is cast at non-Protection speed. You can still use LRC, and many would, but the min/maxers would foot the bill.

Much like the chivalry tithe cost I could see a similar cost introduced for necromancy. Staying in Vampiric Embrace draws down “constitution” which then requires gold to restore or pay for a blood transfusion, etc. 

Considering the Platinums that already exist in Ultima Online, I really doubt much that having players spend in game gold to purchase and use reagents would do much to reduce the gold that exists in the game....

Maybe, if high end items were to be able from the game for in game gold, this could help somewhat in reducing the whatever in game gold tha exists in the game...

For example, a player needs a Cameo ?

Rather then purchasing it from another player, players would go to a NPC and buy it from the NPC with in game gold... say 100 millions UO gold ?

Need a piece of armor with certain specific properties on it, high end ? Go to an Armorer NPC, tell him/her what properties and value the player wants on the armor piece, spend the millions of UO gold asked by the NPC and voila'... more in game gold drained out quickly from the game....

This would drain out, eventually, large amounts of gold from the game, I imagine ....

Mene_Drachenfels

Unfortunately, the gold in UO only comes out of the game, if I put it in an NPC vendor.

Cookie

popps said:

Jepeth said:

It wouldn’t solve the problem alone, but I’d love to see a return to reagent use as an expansion beyond what LRC offers. A reagent cast spell does 10% more SDI or is cast at non-Protection speed. You can still use LRC, and many would, but the min/maxers would foot the bill.

Much like the chivalry tithe cost I could see a similar cost introduced for necromancy. Staying in Vampiric Embrace draws down “constitution” which then requires gold to restore or pay for a blood transfusion, etc. 

Considering the Platinums that already exist in Ultima Online, I really doubt much that having players spend in game gold to purchase and use reagents would do much to reduce the gold that exists in the game....

Maybe, if high end items were to be able from the game for in game gold, this could help somewhat in reducing the whatever in game gold tha exists in the game...

For example, a player needs a Cameo ?

Rather then purchasing it from another player, players would go to a NPC and buy it from the NPC with in game gold... say 100 millions UO gold ?

Need a piece of armor with certain specific properties on it, high end ? Go to an Armorer NPC, tell him/her what properties and value the player wants on the armor piece, spend the millions of UO gold asked by the NPC and voila'... more in game gold drained out quickly from the game....

This would drain out, eventually, large amounts of gold from the game, I imagine ....

I was actually thinking the same thing!

My taste in equipment and armour, seems to differ from that of many others, and it is often not that I want something more OP - I just want a different selection of properties put together, than the game allows - to achieve suit balance.

I would like to create my own armour sets, with my own styles, like pofable, clean, a certain mix on shields, a certain mix on jewels etc - and yes, I would be willing to pay 1 Plat per piece.

Happy not to go over certain property limits, or happy to pay for higher property limits, but the PvM system does not drop the equipment I desire, and neither does the crafting system.

Allow me the choice to design and customise, and I am happy to give you the Plats gold sink.

I'm a Vet, who has everything, but knows what I want, does not exist...

I am not in this for the gold, I like to play content, and I like to PvP, but I want to PvP on a character that is designed to play how I want it to play, not how the game tries to shoe-horn me into being a BokMage. But to do that, I need different options than are provided.

Jepeth

popps said:

Considering the Platinums that already exist in Ultima Online, I really doubt much that having players spend in game gold to purchase and use reagents would do much to reduce the gold that exists in the game....

Maybe, if high end items were to be able from the game for in game gold, this could help somewhat in reducing the whatever in game gold tha exists in the game...

For example, a player needs a Cameo ?

Rather then purchasing it from another player, players would go to a NPC and buy it from the NPC with in game gold... say 100 millions UO gold ?

Need a piece of armor with certain specific properties on it, high end ? Go to an Armorer NPC, tell him/her what properties and value the player wants on the armor piece, spend the millions of UO gold asked by the NPC and voila'... more in game gold drained out quickly from the game....

This would drain out, eventually, large amounts of gold from the game, I imagine ....

I agree, my two suggestions are minor. And, to be clear, I don't think the dev team lacks for ideas on how to handle this situation. But I think small incremental changes would do a lot to ease this problem.

New Legacy is certainly not a small incremental change, but it does address this problem in a drastic, costly fashion.

To your point about the NPC's putting mods on weapons and armor. I see the attraction there but maybe I would prefer NPCs sell a special ingredient to overcap a mod that a player crafter can employ, rather than an NPC doing the job entirely. Your suggestion or this, I think they both still fall under minor, incremental moves.

The design could lean into human nature, though.. and just let people buy special vanity mounts, titles, and what-not for in-game gold only. I'd pay a plat for a silver steed in the classic design.

okcha

Some of the folks that watch my stream when asked what could help the economy of a game that if suffers from to much gold and hyper inflation they mentioned these items that may help the economy

1. gold sinks
2. Special Items
3. buy skills
4. specialized ethereals
5.  like how houses are customizable... maybe do that with appearances and spend more gold for more appearances.. but don't make them skill added

Some input from some folks who watch me play UO 

Venom

Speaking with my brother, I wondered if creating a new currency with a new expansion couldn't sort of help? Obviously that isn't a sink, but potentially controlling the amount of currency available could be a step in the right direction? An implementation of this would probably require an entire expansion to make it even possible. Just spit balling 

Covfefe

1 mill flat item insurance fee, so you lose 1 mill everytime you die to a player, killer only gets the standard 20k, the other 980k goes poof

PvPers can afford way more than that, people be chasing me down burning multiple teleport rings charges at 5 mill per charge just to dismount.

I miss reagents. A lot of thought went into them, EG deadly nightshade for poison, fire spells needing sulphurous ash. Shame all that gone.

Cookie

Covfefe said:

1 mill flat item insurance fee, so you lose 1 mill everytime you die to a player, killer only gets the standard 20k, the other 980k goes poof

PvPers can afford way more than that, people be chasing me down burning multiple teleport rings charges at 5 mill per charge just to dismount.

I miss reagents. A lot of thought went into them, EG deadly nightshade for poison, fire spells needing sulphurous ash. Shame all that gone.

I get where you are coming from, but I think you are now being too hardcore for the amount of players remaining.

1 million for pvpers - sure, but why only hit them?

I don't miss reagents, I never thought about them.

I'm older, I do want an easier life to an extent

Skett

Pay gold to remove shard bound from items 
pay gold for special dyes like ingot colors that can dye anything 
pay gold housing add-ons like interior wall colors 
pay gold for higher end SoS that spawn monster 
pay for etc etc etc 

I realize these ideas will run there course and new things added 

but seeing how the clean up and black market haven’t been updated I doubt any new gold sink would either 

Pawain

Give me Gold!  I do not have a Gold Hoarding problem.  I know how to buy stuffs!

If there were some special gold sink, I sure as heck would use RMT to get the item since I never have Gold for long.

@AtomicBetty ; is correct!                 

popps

Skett said:

Pay gold to remove shard bound from items 
pay gold for special dyes like ingot colors that can dye anything 
pay gold housing add-ons like interior wall colors 
pay gold for higher end SoS that spawn monster 
pay for etc etc etc 

I realize these ideas will run there course and new things added 

but seeing how the clean up and black market haven’t been updated I doubt any new gold sink would either 

Pay gold to remove shard bound from items 

What this would do, if it was to be implemented (which I hope it won't as I disagree with such a change), to my opinion, is favour the hard core players with lots of in game gold to spend who would then go farm shard bound rewards on lower population shards, pay whatever fee to remove the Shard Bound from the items farmed and then sell them at a premium on Atlantic recovering whatever fee they spent to remove the shard bound tag and, perhaps, even making a huge profit in the process since their no longer shard bound items would be more preferable as compared to the shard bound ones...

And players with less in game wealth to remove the shard bound tags, could not compete with this...

No thank you, I do not like this at all, better leave items Shard Bound as they are for all players likewise, and thus help the lower population shards to still have those items stay there, and not see them migrate to other Shards...

Covfefe

I think a lot of players would think nothing of paying 1 plat to return antique jewellery to 255/255 dura. 

(Or non antique)

AtomicBetty

Covfefe said:

1 mill flat item insurance fee, so you lose 1 mill everytime you die to a player, killer only gets the standard 20k, the other 980k goes poof

PvPers can afford way more than that, people be chasing me down burning multiple teleport rings charges at 5 mill per charge just to dismount.

I miss reagents. A lot of thought went into them, EG deadly nightshade for poison, fire spells needing sulphurous ash. Shame all that gone.

You don't even need to raise the insurance fee just make it so players don't get insurance money and its straight removed from the game. No need for money to just keep changing hands and removing 20+  thousand a death starts to add up over time.

AmberWitch

Don't allow anyone to have more than 100 million gold in their banks. Don't allow a vendor to have more than 5 million gold. And all that will do is pretty much make things the same as they are now. 5 million gold will be worth 5 plat gold.  Same thing, different denomination. Those that feel they need to have gold will have gold regardless of how they get it, those that don't care won't care. It just feels to me that this issue is all smoke and mirrors.

Pawain

Announcement at UO.com:

"We are sorry but our gold and platinum markets suffered a collapse. We have generously placed 100k gold into all players bank accounts. Sorry for any inconvenience. "

The rinse and repeat method.

Whitewolf

its not very complicated its simple really, just wipe the gold, erase all current gold in the game and just make people start over, i do have a few plat to my name and so ya it affect me to, but honestly i wouldnt mind, it put everyone back on the same playing field and new players would actually have a chance to succeed wiithout having to rely on gold sellers.

Lord_Frodo

@Pawain and @Whitewolf are so very funny.  EA closes UO due to canceled accounts and stupidly

okcha

I wouldn't mind that Whitewolf & Pawain.. 

Urge

Kyronix said:

We are always evaluating new ways to pull gold out of the economy. 

Taking checks away and adding the ability to put infinite billions in the bank didn't help. Neither is adding top tier suit pieces that can be repaired and pof for eternity. 

A mini sink could involve an NPC selling keys for instances for higher prices. People without gold could still do the quests. NPC could sell lower durability brittle/antique replicas of those suit pieces and other arties. Peerless crafting ingredients? Blackthorn drops?

Jepeth

Selling keys is not a bad idea.. A gripe I have about the current game is that it is often hard to just jump into endgame content without a ton of prep. Other MMOs have adopted instant queuing and other mechanics to get you into the game with others fast. I don't see UO ever having a "public lobby" for endgame content, but the strategy behind such a thing could be useful.

Seasonal events help this (and I'm glad for it) but during the off-months like 5 million per peerless key set, 10 million per Exodus set, 50 million per Shadowguard set would be very welcome.

CovenantX

NPC's selling keys for gold would be a good idea if everyone that ever does peerless isn't bot-farming several sets in advance for free already.

  Besides, most of those peerless' people aren't doing to make gold anymore anyway, the drops that sell for anything (Crimson Cincture- from old peerless as an example) is easier to farm in blackthorn's dungeon, not to mention the freebie literally anyone can get from VvV (in like 15 minutes of being completely new to a shard) that has 5 more dex bonus and is faster to re-farm the points to replace than the permanent one.

So in order for the NPCs sale of peerless/encounter key sets to be successful a few things need to happen... and well, they'd probably need to happen eventually anyway, not just for the peerless' discussed here, but the overall betterment of the game.

1) punish cheaters,   -we're seeing what happens when they're not punished (~10+ years where it's noticed and/or partaken in, by large swathes of players... daily in many cases)

they've only had ~25 years, with progressively more free reign, that still continues to this day.

2) update the content the sold keys are used for.   the vast majority of all these encounters have many or all useless reward items, since imbuing & even more so since the global loot system came out.

3) the pricing should probably scale based on the amount of gold on each shard, or a % of the gold game-wide.

 the problem that keeps appearing, is that  Cheating is never dealt with, so any new content would be right here again within about 1-3 months because people lose interest when they are, or know of others that are farming that content automatically, in the background.

 It's probably why they've been opting for a cycle of ~2month time-frames for temporary reward content, then stop the flow of those items.  it's easier to control it, but it also pushes all the cheaters out in front for everyone to see and they're still doing what they do, blatantly with little to no consequence.    -Not a good spot, would be amazing if it ever gets turned around.