HLD/HLA

Yoshi

“I propose Hit lower defence and attack should last only 1.5 seconds or so

Currently, you can get up to 70% on a weapon (plus 30% hld on glasses, although it doesn’t stack it does add)
Why it needs to last 8 seconds?

At 1.25 swing rate which every template uses - even mages. Target is under permanent HLD debuff even with just 30% HLD.

For PvM too, I prob put in wrong sub forum

Even if it lasted only 1 second even, would be beneficial somewhat for team play as another player could take advantage of the debuff.

discuss”

Lord_Frodo

Leave PvM alone.

Yoshi

"let us take arrarat, say 15 people hitting it, and one person with 15% HLD/HLA is enough to keep it perma HLD/HLA for all people....

it's not necessary, 1 second is enough not 8 "

Elvis

can devs pls help mervyn win more with his bok mage?  maybe make his curse spell spam last 1 second too? 1 second is enough

Lord_Frodo

It aint broke so do not fix it.

Yoshi

“Well it is kinda broke, due to power creep.
Before you would choose between damage increase, swing speed or hit lower d or hit lower A, now you can fit everything without compromising. So everyone has all”

Elvis

Yoshi said:

“Well it is kinda broke"

someone hit you lower d?

Lord_Frodo

Yoshi said:

“Well it is kinda broke, due to power creep.
Before you would choose between damage increase, swing speed or hit lower d or hit lower A, now you can fit everything without compromising. So everyone has all”

So if EVERYONE as you say has it all then there is no problem.  I also love how you use this word power creep when in fact that maybe the DEVs balanced something that was in fact broke and now it is the way it should have been in the first place.

Grimbeard

Rather than nerf parry why not have it enhance magery if you're focused mage parry allows you to cast uninterrupted as if you have protection on

Cookie

I always think that anything that lasts for 1 second, is just completely pointless in life.

You cannot really do anything in 1 second, no-one is really performing at that level, not even race driver reactions, and I used to have them.

Looking at it from both sides - my dexxers, and my mages, I do not have a problem with this 8 seconds timing.

Yoshi

"well it's fairly simple to do the math.

You can't really argue with math.

Small issue demonstrating, you don't get a notification when you have successfully hit a monster with HLD or HLA, only receiver gets a debuff.

So for this experiment you could perform on another player rather than a monster and monitor the debuffs.

So could use 2 chars with 45 hci/dci and equal weapon skill, although bear in mind monsters don't even have DCI (they might have higher than 120 wrestling skill though)

Do experiment with weap speed at 1.25seconds

place only i'd say 15% HLD on weapon, and observe once hit with HLD, debuff would never go away as would keep regenerating.

If it NEVER goes away even at 15%, and you have over 50%, then it's overpowered at 8 seconds.

And that is just ONE person hitting HLD, you have multiple people hitting with HLD...and it assists all attacking players...

(HLA is perhaps slightly different because once you hit a monster with it, it doesn't assist you in hitting it more times)

I don't need to actually perform this experiment because i understand math and probability but if you need me to show you i can"

Cookie

For pvm sure, its as you say. But I'd almost say - what is the point - HLD/HLA would proc every second for a second, and get quite boring if it started notifying every single one. But in terms of playing effect - there would just be no difference.
I think my main question here, is why?

For pvp, you could not keep that hit rate, or the debuff up in the same fashion.

You are saying this is just a pvm adjustment? The implication is big in pvp?

Yoshi

"yes its true for pvp also, how its not true for pvp when i said in example to use a player hitting another player?

the only breakwater that comes in the debuff from player to player combat is people moving out of range, aggressor being disarmed, and parrying (30-35%)

if no parrying in the example i gave, player is under perma debuff at only 15% HLD, it's why it's so hard to pvp without parrying"

Cookie

players move - they dont just let themselves get hit?

ok, i get what you are trying to do - you are saying it is a pretty major debuff to just have out there as a passive the whole time.

CovenantX

They already made a change to HLD to have a reduced duration when applied via Ranged weapon, (which were the ones that could have used the nerf at the time) when they removed the over-capping of DCI, they also reduced the amount of DCI HLD cuts off, so it's not much better than it was when most people ran with 70 DCI back in the day.

I've said this before, which became even more relevant with the powercreep Global loot brought...

HLD should be restored to a flat -25 DCI (currently it's -35% (which is -15 DCI, more if you have higher than 45)  & prevent overcapping of DCI...  Maybe if they did this, refining armor to 70 DCI cap would become a viable option? (LOL)   with as much complaining as some of you do about dexers, you might Think this would happen.  but, everyone knows mages are more lethal and since they can't miss It will never be worth refining for + DCI and - Resistances.

At 0 DCI you are completely immune to HLD, (currently active) If you have Parry (and everyone does), it just means more blocks, it's more beneficial to Block instead of dodge. when 1/3rd of your blocks paralyze, This is why parry is even more effective when you refine your resistances up and DCI cap down -Reactive Paralyze.

HLA on the other hand, is still -25 HCI, but is able to be overcapped against, still more difficult to have a good suit & be overcapped on HCI to nullify HLA though, so it's not likely you'd run into anyone who does this... yet -when new items are introduced it'll become easier overtime.

70% HLD is unrealistic, 70% hitspell is better, because HLD only Reduces your opponents Dodge chance by 7.5% (less than 1/10) IF your opponent doesn't have parry, and we all know you won't see anyone short of Archers that don't run Parry.

Cookie

CovenantX said:

  but, everyone knows mages are more lethal and since they can't miss 

Can we just address the Fallacy of this statement please.

I'd like you, and everyone to stop saying this, I'd like an apology for how you have been ruining pvp for umpteen years based on this lie.

A fizzle is a miss. A casting interruption is a miss. A resisted spell is a miss. Out of Range, or Line of Sight, is a miss.

Just because it does not use the word miss - all these things, effectively prevent a spell from happening or landing - ie - a miss. I think Mages "miss" or Fail every bit as much as Dexxers.

CovenantX

Cookie said:

CovenantX said:

  but, everyone knows mages are more lethal and since they can't miss

Can we just address the Fallacy of this statement please.

I'd like you, and everyone to stop saying this, I'd like an apology for how you have been ruining pvp for umpteen years based on this lie.

A fizzle is a miss. A casting interruption is a miss. A resisted spell is a miss. Out of Range, or Line of Sight, is a miss.

Just because it does not use the word miss - all these things, effectively prevent a spell from happening or landing - ie - a miss. I think Mages "miss" or Fail every bit as much as Dexxers.

    Umm.  No,  you're absolutely wrong (again) this is becoming a pattern.   

   Mages can't miss, because once you cast the spell (meaning you didn't get interrupted by someone else) you will hit 100% of the time.   -I've never and I never will ask for that to change.

  Dexers can swing their weapon and not hit you... it doesn't even matter what your weapon skill is vs theirs, they Always have a chance to miss.   I shouldn't have to explain this to someone who "Knows" anything about pvp... but here we are.

 Aside from 'resisted spell' (which basically only works on poison in this context) everything else is user error.   Why would you drop a spell on a target too far away? why would you drop a spell on a target that's not in line of sight?    That's your choice, stop making the wrong one.

You can easily be within 1-range to a dexer and be missed 3x in a row.  if you're within 10 tiles of a mage that don't or can't interrupt you're guaranteed to be hit by whatever spells they cast on you.   spells are the only things that can interrupt other spells reliably.  if a dexer misses, not only do they not deal damage (to force the mage to go defensive), they also don't interrupt. (you should know that)

Btw, Dexers used to reach 100% hit chance if their weapon skill was 60.0 or higher than their opponent.   Now no matter what your skills are you always have A min/max of 5% to hit & miss. even against a disarmed target, this is before DCI is added too.  but that's not the issue. (though that should be reverted too)

CovenantX

CovenantX said:

At 0 DCI you are completely immune to HLD, (currently Active)

 Additional note - your unmodified dci needs to be 0 for immunity to HLD.  currently the only item that this includes is Shanty's Waders (-5 DCI +10 HCI) Thigh Boots.

Cookie

Do you know what our chances of actually casting the spell are with interruption's?

I am not even able to complete casting half my spells - there is nothing guaranteed there.
They are all misses.

Players can step outside the range box, you miss, players can break line of sight, you miss, it is not guaranteed you land the spell.

Resisting spells, can completely block poison etc from landing, as can Evade block a ton of stuff from landing - all missing.

I almost question your ability to understand the mechanics of this game.

So a. we have a chance our spellcasting is broken before we begin, b. players can take evasive action, and c. our spells can fail to land - 3 types of missing - very strange for a class that can never miss?


I can equally say Warriors NEVER miss. Assuming they have a weapon in their hands, the player stays next to them, the RNG works in their favour, and the hit lands and causes damage, they NEVER miss. Exactly the same as a Mage.

Show me you know anything at all about a Mage - what is the success change of a poison landing vs someone with Resisting spells? Or Evade? What is the range of the spell? What are the billion ways you could prevent me casting it? All to create a miss.

{And no, it doesn't only work on Poison in this context - I'm using that as the most basic example so you can comprehend. Damn your knowledge is so limited}.

Everything else is not User Error. Mages HAVE to stand still to cast. In that time, any decent Warrior, should be 1 tile outside the casting box, its that simple - so if playing any decent PvPers, Mages will basically miss 100%. On my warrior, it's my mistake if a spell lands on me - with my ability to move, and break line of sight. And PS - My warriors have Parry - to counteract other Warriors - something you said earlier never happens - I don;t run Evade to counteract Mages - no-one needs to do this they are so weak and can Miss so much. {|The worst situation for a Warrior, is getting trapped and letting 3 mages dump on him - but whose fault is this? Reading between the lines - this is you, over and over. In fact, this is the ONLY way a Mage can never miss, which is why this is your only experience of it maybe}.

You can go on all you like, about your Tight little definition of Never miss, but you completely fail to see the overall game mechanics. Partly because you are so biased and in your little box.

Yoshi

CovenantX said:

, 70% hitspell is better, because HLD only Reduces your opponents Dodge chance by 7.5% (less than 1/10) IF your opponent doesn't have parry,

"it's not an either/or thing anymore, i have 70% hit spell plus over 50% HLD, everyone just has it"

CovenantX

Cookie said:

Do you know what our chances of actually casting the spell are with interruption's?

I am not even able to complete casting half my spells - there is nothing guaranteed there.
They are all misses.

Players can step outside the range box, you miss, players can break line of sight, you miss, it is not guaranteed you land the spell.

Resisting spells, can completely block poison etc from landing, as can Evade block a ton of stuff from landing - all missing.

I almost question your ability to understand the mechanics of this game.
So a. we have a chance our spellcasting is broken before we begin, b. players can take evasive action, and c. our spells can fail to land - 3 types of missing - very strange for a class that can never miss?


I can equally say Warriors NEVER miss. Assuming they have a weapon in their hands, the player stays next to them, the RNG works in their favour, and the hit lands and causes damage, they NEVER miss. Exactly the same as a Mage.

Show me you know anything at all about a Mage - what is the success change of a poison landing vs someone with Resisting spells? Or Evade? What is the range of the spell? What are the billion ways you could prevent me casting it? All to create a miss.

{And no, it doesn't only work on Poison in this context - I'm using that as the most basic example so you can comprehend. Damn your knowledge is so limited}.

Everything else is not User Error. Mages HAVE to stand still to cast. In that time, any decent Warrior, should be 1 tile outside the casting box, its that simple - so if playing any decent PvPers, Mages will basically miss 100%. On my warrior, it's my mistake if a spell lands on me - with my ability to move, and break line of sight.

You can go on all you like, about your Tight little definition of Never miss, but you completely fail to see the overall game mechanics. Partly because you are so biased and in your little box.

-every time you post you make less and less sense, but it's amusing.  it's only showing the lack of understanding you possess regarding this topic. but let's go on shall we?

 

Your chance to cast a spell without interruption is based on what you're fighting.  clearly, it has variables, this is why I differentiate Dexers (Melee & Ranged) vs Mages?   Here I thought that couldn't be more obvious.  There's at least one person who couldn't pickup on it though huh. no worries.

Mages with good timing can interrupt you at will (see my signature regarding casting focus -it's bad too and should go), nearly every time if they can anticipate what you're going to do.   dexers rely on RNG and 'positioning" to have a 'chance' at interrupting... this is where Parry & Dodge chances (from Weapon-based Interruptions come in)    Dodge chance, 50/50 as long as both players are equal in weapon skills,   attackers HCI vs defenders DCI, then you add a 2nd chance for Parry, which has other implications to the attacker, but the same result for the defender.

the success rate of poison is 50% if magery  is equal to the targets resisting spells.  Evade has no bearing on poison landing -only the damage ticks, (unless it's coming from a weapon-based source, in which case Resisting Spells wouldn't affect it anyway).   and I used your previous posts "Context" regarding poison correctly thank you, Perhaps you should learn what context means.

Yes, warriors can usually close the gap when you're frozen in-place casting (depending on spell & distance between players), and that only allows them a Chance (hit or miss) at interrupting a caster.... Parry only increases that chance by adding a 2nd layer of RNG to help ensure a weapon doesn't hit.   Thus the spell is not interrupted.

If you're on your warrior it's your mistake you miss enough for spells to go off?  maybe if you're not able to get close enough to land hits, but the RNG becomes the factor if you are able to keep within range, most of the time.

 I'm not using a "tight" definition of 'spells never miss', because that's literally how it works...

you're refusing to acknowledge that spells can't miss and somehow dexers can't miss either Look at what you wrote  LOL

Evaded spells do not Miss, they're Blocked, there's a difference,  evasion requires a reaction to even have a chance to block a spell that otherwise is Guaranteed to hit..  you can also interrupt people casting spells while they're evading by using non-damaging spells to prevent them from casting...Another unmissable counter dexers don't always have?  Shocker, I know.

Guess what?  if you fight someone without Parry, they'll get hit by 100% of the spells you drop on  them.  That's assuming you're not dumb enough to cast on targets you can't see or are too far away.. that's on you,  only practice or illegal programs can help you with that.  that's also irrelevant to Parry being good or bad... or broken AF.

 

Cookie

You are refusing to understand there are different mechanics in play, to a straight out miss, all with the same result.

If a striker takes a penalty, and completely misses the goal, it is the same result as if he were on target, and the goalkeeper saves it. I don't expect you to understand that.

CovenantX

Cookie said:

You are refusing to understand there are different mechanics in play, to a straight out miss, all with the same result.

If a striker takes a penalty, and completely misses the goal, it is the same result as if he were on target, and the goalkeeper saves it. I don't expect you to understand that.

    and that analogy works fine in sports, not in UO.

 

  they're not he same result even in your analogy, because the goalie is able to sent the ball/puck whatever sport you wish to use in this, back into the field giving them an advantage unless user error (mistakes) gets the better of them. 

Let's see how far the acorn falls from the tree shall we?  This is hilarious.

CovenantX

Yoshi said:

CovenantX said:

, 70% hitspell is better, because HLD only Reduces your opponents Dodge chance by 7.5% (less than 1/10) IF your opponent doesn't have parry,

"it's not an either/or thing anymore, i have 70% hit spell plus over 50% HLD, everyone just has it"

   Sure, it's not really an option though, you need both.  if you rely heavily on a weapon for your damage output.

 

 without hit-spell you don't do enough damage to kill anyone. with the few hits that do manage to land.

 without HLD (even though you're required to land a hit in order for it to proc to begin with) you can't hit often enough to kill even some of the worst players, let alone someone that knows how to pvp (timing spells between swings, moving etc)

 I was merely pointing out how small of an increase in hit chance that HLD provides against a target without Parry.  it's even less against someone with parry and nearly everyone has it.

HLA not only negates HLD, but it exceeds it against anyone not running with 55 hit chance or more. 

Then you factor the variables of player movement (impossible to calculate consistently), which no one is suggesting a change to, but it does factor in as a reason ranged weapons & spells gain a significant advantage over 1-tile range weapons.  

I know in the past people have suggested adding a 2 tile range to melee weapons, but the reason I'm against that is because it's not something melee dexers benefit exclusively from, Melee-tank-mages (evade mages more specifically) would benefit from it too, they're the meta, that needs no buffs already.

I didn't respond specifically to your OP yet, so I'll do that now,  it's impossible to discuss any potential balances between templates without bringing parry into it because the access of Parry (through Powercreep) is the only outlier affecting pvp.  excluding illegal client use ofc.

Yoshi said:

“I propose Hit lower defence and attack should last only 1.5 seconds or so

discuss”

  

  HLA/HLD wouldn't last long enough to even attempt at another swing, then it'll just become useless.  -even though it's not far from useless now. -see parry.

 Ranged weapons HLD already has a shorter duration than melee counter-parts.  which is reasonable..   Perhaps if HLD made a noticeable difference,... like higher than 1/11 more successful hits, It might warrant a rebalance.  but 7.5% increase hit chance is not really even noticeable when neither of the players are going to stand still.

Cookie

CovenantX said:

  

  

  .  but 7.5% increase hit chance is not really even noticeable when neither of the players are going to stand still.

I like how when you discuss warrior calculations, neither player is going to stand still, which makes warrior playstyle more difficult.

Yet when you discuss mage playstyle, the opponent stands still, so the mage can NEVER miss.

You and your bias are actually hilarious. I've never seen someone so zealous, and unaware of it.

CovenantX

Cookie said:

CovenantX said:

  

  

  .  but 7.5% increase hit chance is not really even noticeable when neither of the players are going to stand still.

I like how when you discuss warrior calculations, neither player is going to stand still, which makes warrior playstyle more difficult.

Yet when you discuss mage playstyle, the opponent stands still, so the mage can NEVER miss.

You and your bias are actually hilarious. I've never seen someone so zealous, and unaware of it.

    Context is important,  clearly you've failed again.  there's that pattern I told you about earlier.

 

   So, if HLD/HLA only lasted 1.5s that would mean a dexer has to stay within the 'attack range' in order to benefit from the effect,   HLD & HLA would only be usable to any effect, by archers. -if you follow the context of Yoshi's proposition.  

-i didn't expect you to follow that though. you can't even follow your own logic after all.

Cookie said:

Resisting spells, can completely block poison etc from landing, as can Evade block a ton of stuff from landing - all missing.

   Magery - Poison, still interrupts you if it hits while you're casting a spell, regardless if you Resist it or not.   

What else you got genius?

 

Rorschach

Let's keep this conversation within the bounds of the terms of service. Thank you.

Cookie

Rorschach said:

Let's keep this conversation within the bounds of the terms of service. Thank you.

<span></span>

I'm done thank you, said everything I wanted to.

Yoshi

“I might do some in game testing, I’m not really understanding the calcs as doesn’t seem to be translating into gameplay experience. 

I’ve tried playing on chars without parry, and you will just never dodge anything once you’re hit once with HLD, yet according to some calcs this should not be the case and you still have a chance to dodge?
I’ve not seen it happen in game”

Cookie

Yoshi said:

“I might do some in game testing, I’m not really understanding the calcs as doesn’t seem to be translating into gameplay experience. 

I’ve tried playing on chars without parry, and you will just never dodge anything once you’re hit once with HLD, yet according to some calcs this should not be the case and you still have a chance to dodge?
I’ve not seen it happen in game”

I support you doing more ingame testing on this

I feel the same.

CovenantX

Yoshi said:

“I might do some in game testing, I’m not really understanding the calcs as doesn’t seem to be translating into gameplay experience. 

I’ve tried playing on chars without parry, and you will just never dodge anything once you’re hit once with HLD, yet according to some calcs this should not be the case and you still have a chance to dodge?
I’ve not seen it happen in game”

Don't forget to take Refinements on your armor into consideration.