A discussion on unborking the in-game economy

Smoot

Lord_Nythrax said:

Seth said:

Smoot said:

store items contribute to inflation, but also allow those who dont want to spend time in game to essentially buy gold (sell UO store item for gold)

This doesn't cause inflation. It just moves gold around.

it of course contributes to inflation.  but like i said, healthy inflation isnt a bad thing.

UO store items create free gold (in the actual game nothing was paid for the item) Its exactly comparable to a real life government giving out free money, or welfare.  So the reciever of this "free" gold now has a free supply of gold that wouldnt have been there without the outside real life cash.  Now that player can spend the gold, contributing to demand whereas without the RL cash they wouldnt be.

yes, it moves around gold, but artificially.  it creates higher demand where there wouldnt be otherwise.

So overall demand is increased.  players become active in game consumers that wouldnt have been without the RL cash paid for the UO store item.  higher demand means faster inflation.

AmberWitch

So I guess we would have to admit that in addition to paying a monthly subscription UO has already become a pay to play/win?

Rocko

Or.....remove all gold/plats from everyone and start again.

Grimbeard

AmberWitch said:

So I guess we would have to admit that in addition to paying a monthly subscription UO has already become a pay to play/win?

This happened with EJ accounts..

gay

The only people who really have a problem with the game economy are the ones who still make gold killing monsters and looting said gold. Or farming treasure chests for gold.

Find better stuff to loot, PvPers are always looking for new splinter weps and +skill antique jewels. Hit a pinata at an idoc, you might get lucky and find a server birth or rare item to sell.

Nobody has farmed gold off monsters to sustain their gold income since 2008 when the Darkwood japanese gold farmers were botting ice fiends.

Arnold7

For newer players that qualify to have a house and that have a character that can get drops at the special events that last for a couple of months, they can make gold by setting up one of those commission vendors that charges a commission when the drop is sold (these players won’t have enough gold to support a daily commission vendor).  These players won’t have to spend real dollars to buy stuff.  When they get enough knowledge and gold to identify items they can buy low and sell high they can start making money that way too. They will have to work at it but they will make enough gold to buy what they need if it is sold on their shard by a seller listing items in good faith.

For every other new player they are just out of luck (this statement refers to real new players that are not experienced players that know what they are doing.). You can’t make enough gold on your own from looting stuff you kill or even from treasure chests to get the millions you need to play the game.  These players will have to rely on others to give them the stuff they need.

That’s the UO economy in a nutshell for newer players.

username

Helper said:

To get the ball rolling;

Broken mechanism: vendor sell-cap of 175 million gold.

Suggested fix: vendor sell-cap of 1 platinum, as several items are now unsellable on vendors at current market prices.

No. Auction safes exist for a reason. Nor would that have an effect on the economy at all. 

A great start would be to REMOVE shard bound from items, either account-bound them or no restrictions.

JenniferMarie

hey, here’s a thought … maybe if the Dev Team had ever updated loot tables with viable gold on corpses, updated the amount of gold dropped at champ spawns (and likewise, Roof), updated the amount a new player starts the game with, and all quest rewards then maybe newer players (and seasoned players who enjoy busy work and spawns and stuff) wouldn’t feel the need to go “buy” gold from RMT sellers and the UO economy could be self-sustaining …

SaulGoodman1

Listen, I can sell you the solution for ten plats.

Rocko

gay said:

The only people who really have a problem with the game economy are the ones who still make gold killing monsters and looting said gold. Or farming treasure chests for gold.

Find better stuff to loot, PvPers are always looking for new splinter weps and +skill antique jewels. Hit a pinata at an idoc, you might get lucky and find a server birth or rare item to sell.

Nobody has farmed gold off monsters to sustain their gold income since 2008 when the Darkwood japanese gold farmers were botting ice fiends.

I enjoy the original game, such as it is.  Dungeon crawls, guild events, crafting - whatever it is, I like it.  I don't care about rubble or all that nonsense. 

Skett

username said:

Helper said:

To get the ball rolling;

Broken mechanism: vendor sell-cap of 175 million gold.

Suggested fix: vendor sell-cap of 1 platinum, as several items are now unsellable on vendors at current market prices.

No. Auction safes exist for a reason. Nor would that have an effect on the economy at all. 

A great start would be to REMOVE shard bound from items, either account-bound them or no restrictions.

This 

Lord_Nythrax

Smoot said:

it of course contributes to inflation.  but like i said, healthy inflation isnt a bad thing.

UO store items create free gold (in the actual game nothing was paid for the item) Its exactly comparable to a real life government giving out free money, or welfare.  So the reciever of this "free" gold now has a free supply of gold that wouldnt have been there without the outside real life cash.  Now that player can spend the gold, contributing to demand whereas without the RL cash they wouldnt be.

yes, it moves around gold, but artificially.  it creates higher demand where there wouldnt be otherwise.

So overall demand is increased.  players become active in game consumers that wouldnt have been without the RL cash paid for the UO store item.  higher demand means faster inflation.

The person buying the store item loses the gold, and the overall amount of gold in the economy is unchanged.

Helper

Thank you to everyone that has participated in this discussion thus far!

There have been some great points brought up, and I will address some of them below in separate comments to avoid wall-of-text as much as possible.

To the readers who have not voted on the poll yet, please do so. I would prefer to get the pulse of as large a percentage of the player-base as possible on this topic.
(Thank you for putting up with the forum log-in issues!)

Helper

Regarding inflation:

The presence of inflation does not necessarily mean that it is good. For instance, the U.S. fed targets a rate of a 2% annual increase in inflation and considers anything above that percentage rate to be bad inflation.

While the argument can be made that the virtual economy of UO is different than a traditional economy and should not use the same benchmarks, even if you moved that rate up to 5% you would still be well under the price increases that we have seen in-game.

Many prices seem to have shot up dramatically, much more so than any increased demand from new and returning players would necessitate. Steps need to be taken to remove some of the gold from the game, which is increasing on every shard on a daily basis far more than the amount removed by vendor fees and insurance.

The primary means of the removal of gold need to be adjusted.
[Posts on those means to follow as time permits.]

There is also a thread on the forums by Cookie to suggest new ideas to remove gold here: https://forum.uo.com/discussion/11931/gold-sink-ideas#latest

JenniferMarie

If the discussion is going to focus on “inflation”, the changes that the Dev Team has made should be at the top of the list of reasons why prices have skyrocketed in recent years.

The changes to Taming and pet training increased the price of powerscrolls exponentially. It’s been so long now that I forget what a 120 tactics used to sell for on a player vendor, but I do know it was a fraction of the 70-120m they sell for now. (Just to cite an example.)

The IDOC changes, likewise, caused Vet Reward prices to double - or almost triple - as well as prices on mats and resources.

While it can be argued those changes were some weird, misguided attempt at removing gold from the game, it’s had the opposite effect.

Grimbeard

JenniferMarie said:

If the discussion is going to focus on “inflation”, the changes that the Dev Team has made should be at the top of the list of reasons why prices have skyrocketed in recent years.

The changes to Taming and pet training increased the price of powerscrolls exponentially. It’s been so long now that I forget what a 120 tactics used to sell for on a player vendor, but I do know it was a fraction of the 70-120m they sell for now. (Just to cite an example.)

The IDOC changes, likewise, caused Vet Reward prices to double - or almost triple - as well as prices on mats and resources.

While it can be argued those changes were some weird, misguided attempt at removing gold from the game, it’s had the opposite effect.

Chiv and disco ps used to be dirt cheap 

JenniferMarie

I know, and all of these changes didn’t remove any gold from the game - it just keeps moving it around from player to player.

Grimbeard

They should have created pet only PS available only in tram through some fishmonger type quest 

keven2002

My thoughts:

Sure, today, everything costs more than it did 25 years ago but I think it's relative because things that used to be tricky / hard to kill (ie a regular dragon or lich or lich lord) 25 years ago to get that 800gp now can be killed in a hit or 2. Inflation comes natural when the average player was only able to make 15k an hour (25 years ago) but now can make 60k an hour doing the same thing. It's no different than raising minimum wage from $5 to $25 and seeing average things like a hamburger also increase.

I can see the inflation argument to a point given that a new toon still starts with 1k gold which is laughable by today's UO economy and certain things (like low to upper-mid level monsters) drop less than 1k gold but something like powder of fortification is 100k. So by that measure yes - inflation is definitely there.

The other side of that argument though is that it's all relative. A relatively new player with some skills can kill something like a Miasma pretty easily. Those net like 2k gold each plus chance for maps and the respawn instantly. Within an hour they could easily have 100k+ in gold plus whatever they can sell in maps. Now the argument is that something like a cameo costs 200-300m these days which could be said that it would take like 6 months of constant Miasma farming to get that item. Technically yes but here is where the relativity comes in. That same relatively new player can get majority of things in game with medium level effort depending on timing.

What do I mean by that?

Take any of the previous treasure events (or just events in general) where all you really need is a moderate level toon with the ability to do some damage with some defense so they aren't 1 shot killed and you can partake in that event and sell 1 drop for 2-3million just like that. So now instead of farming 100k gold (plus maps) from Miasma people are getting 5-10m in an hour (on the low side) just by getting 3-4 drops from the event. From there it will just depend on how much you play... the more you play, the more drops you get and the more you can sell to make. This doesn't even take into account going to EM events which is basically a crapshoot at getting a drop for an hour's worth of work. All you need to do is get 1 or those and instantly you have 150m+.

So while someone might have only made 100k in a week 25 years ago and could buy plenty of things; today that same person could technically make 100m+ a week now and still be able to buy plenty of things.

Tim

Just a couple of points

1. Way back when I started I remember the sense of pride when me and 2 friends could finally afford a house. We shared a small stone tower and it took months to get to that point. The idea that new players should be able to solo the roof or get a castle shortly after joining just cheapens all our hard work and removes a lot of the fun for new players. The new player who wants to immediately get to the "end game" content is likely to just move on to the latest and greatest "pay for play game".  Please remember to ask a new player you run across if they want help or would prefer to get there on their own.
2. I agree real world inflation has a lot of similarities to UO but there is a big difference. There is nothing in UO you need. Unlike the real world if you can't afford some thing you are not going to starve or have no place to sleep (Inns on UO don't charge for rooms). One of the things this means is there is no pressure on the seller to lower prices for the sale because he/she has their own bills to pay.

Grimbeard

No way was all the gold currently in game earned by killing monsters we are talking years and years of duping. delete all gold.

popps

JenniferMarie said:

If the discussion is going to focus on “inflation”, the changes that the Dev Team has made should be at the top of the list of reasons why prices have skyrocketed in recent years.

The changes to Taming and pet training increased the price of powerscrolls exponentially. It’s been so long now that I forget what a 120 tactics used to sell for on a player vendor, but I do know it was a fraction of the 70-120m they sell for now. (Just to cite an example.)

The IDOC changes, likewise, caused Vet Reward prices to double - or almost triple - as well as prices on mats and resources.

While it can be argued those changes were some weird, misguided attempt at removing gold from the game, it’s had the opposite effect.

The Developers should really have added 115 Powerscrolls to Treasure Maps, to my opinion....

It would have still taken a significant amoung of time and effort to gather all of the 115s needed to bind into a 120 and, yet, it would have been at least an alternative to get 120 Powerscrolls, albeit with effort, work and time investment, to Champion Spawn AND, most importantly, it would have helped tone down and keep under more control Powerscrolls prices....

@Kyronix , how about finally adding 115s to Treasure Maps' Chests ?

JenniferMarie

I will never understand why people insist on scrolling every pet out with 120’s. 

Arnold7

Agree with Popps on the chests.  After all they are treasure chests.  Should be a chance of finding real treasure in them.  Since you are in Fel. risking as much as you would be at a spawn, hoard and trove chests should have a chance of spawning something of value.  As is, with treasure chests the potential reward does not justify the risk of getting player killed in Fel.  If I am bored or have nothing better to do, I will do these chests.  Other wise I just let them sit.  110 scrolls don’t sell for that much, generally about one tenth of what a 120 scroll does.  Not saying players should not do these if they want to, just saying the reward does not justify the additional risk.

Note: Fel. Artisan chests don’t spawn any power scrolls at all or anything else of much value.

Gwen

popps said:

The Developers should really have added 115 Powerscrolls to Treasure Maps, to my opinion....

It would have still taken a significant amoung of time and effort to gather all of the 115s needed to bind into a 120 and, yet, it would have been at least an alternative to get 120 Powerscrolls, albeit with effort, work and time investment, to Champion Spawn AND, most importantly, it would have helped tone down and keep under more control Powerscrolls prices....

@ Kyronix , how about finally adding 115s to Treasure Maps' Chests ?

No, they should NOT . 115 and 120 powerscrolls are from champ spawns , and as I see market there is no shortage of them at all. 
Treasure maps are peacefull adventure and contain lots of pretty expensive stuff. You are alowed to sell it and buy  what you want. Or go and do champ spawn. 

popps

Gwen said:

popps said:

The Developers should really have added 115 Powerscrolls to Treasure Maps, to my opinion....

It would have still taken a significant amoung of time and effort to gather all of the 115s needed to bind into a 120 and, yet, it would have been at least an alternative to get 120 Powerscrolls, albeit with effort, work and time investment, to Champion Spawn AND, most importantly, it would have helped tone down and keep under more control Powerscrolls prices....

@ Kyronix , how about finally adding 115s to Treasure Maps' Chests ?

No, they should NOT . 115 and 120 powerscrolls are from champ spawns , and as I see market there is no shortage of them at all. 
Treasure maps are peacefull adventure and contain lots of pretty expensive stuff. You are alowed to sell it and buy  what you want. Or go and do champ spawn. 

Then why @JenniferMarie in her post here https://forum.uo.com/discussion/comment/88817/#Comment_88817 said : 

The changes to Taming and pet training increased the price of powerscrolls exponentially. 

??

There either is an issue with Powerscrolls prices being out of range or there isn't...

Personally, like other UO players, I think there is and, oddily enough, those Powerscrolls having the highest prices seem to be Powerscrolls which are also used on pets, besides characters...

Of course that having to use Powerscrolls on pets, of which usually Tamers have several in their stables (some players even have multiple Tamers on their account to have more stable slots available...), causes a surge in demand for Powerscrolls and a shortage in their offer thus driving prices "exponentially"....

While a player has 6 or 7 characters in their account, and some of them not even all of their characters in the account having their skills using 120 Powerscrolls, an account with a Tamer, or even more then 1 Tamer, can have tens upon tens of pets which, in order to be more effective fighters, usually need to be applied 120 Powerscrolls.

Most Tamers, now, train their pets so focused that 1 pet can only be used for 1 or 2 hunts (moreless like dexers use their weapons for....), that means having the need for a Tamer to have a large number of pets, all trained up to 120 skills if their Intensity allows it, to make them better fighters for their intended Hunts.

So, in short, YES, absolutely I do think that the Developers should ass 115 Powerscrolls to Treasure Chests in order to make them more available and in a way alternative to Champion Spawns, albeit still being time consuming and requiring work and an effort.

When doing a Champion Spawn, it is only a matter of the RNG whether to grant the players 120 PS, having 115s in Treasure Chests, would instead not just be a matter of the RNG solely but, also, take time to gather all of the necessary Treasure Maps, spend the time to fight the Guardians and dig them up and do this not just for the 10 x 115s times needed to bind them into a 120 but having to do it way more times, because not necessarily in 10 Treasure Chests one would get 10 matching 115s....

So, having 115s in Treasure Chests, it would still take time, effort and work as compared to a Champion Spawn.... only, it would help the economy to keep Powerscroll prices more under control and be more affordable from players.

keven2002

Arnold7 said:

Agree with Popps on the chests.  After all they are treasure chests.  Should be a chance of finding real treasure in them.  Since you are in Fel. risking as much as you would be at a spawn, hoard and trove chests should have a chance of spawning something of value.  As is, with treasure chests the potential reward does not justify the risk of getting player killed in Fel.

I agree with much of what you say Arnold but sorry I cannot agree there is much if any risk on a Fel map.

I've done thousands of maps over the years and I'd say that probably 95% of treasure maps (in Fel) are in some random place in the middle of nowhere and given the current population of UO there is almost zero chance that another player would randomly be in that area, let alone someone looking to kill a T Hunter. People looking to PK stick to the areas where people usually go (ie Yew Fel / Champ spawns / etc) because it's a waste of time randomly hopping islands where Tmaps spawn or running through the Trinny jungle to potentially find someone.

The other 5% of treasure maps that actually spawn in a "danger zone" like around Yew have 2 options available; 1) do what I do and complete them in the AM when not many pvpers are on or 2) leave them in your Davies to reset the location (again this is only a fraction of maps).

There really isn't a risk to being in Fel anymore if you are doing it outside of the PvP hotspots. Outside of things that are cattle herd events like ToT dungeons (which they only did for a weekend last time) / champ spawns / Fel event clickies. I use my miner exclusively in Fel on ATL (I've used him many times in the last 2 months out of boredom) for the extra resources and the only "people" I've seen are a couple of mining bots. I can't even remember the last time I saw a person (let alone red) when doing a treasure chest in Fel.

Gwen

There is no shortage. Some items are more valuable than other. Supply-demand thing. 
If you think something is too expensive for you - go and get it yourself. 
Think that preces are too high - go , get and sell at lower price.  Or use 110 scrolls. Difference is microscopic. 
Champ spawn gives 115 and 110 scrolls too. 120 are rare. 120 of useful skills are even more rare. 
there is huge amount of in-game activities and mobs that don't drop scrolls. 
If you want to be "more effective" with 6 tamers with 42*120 scrolled pet on each - you pay the price. 
If you want easy button - you copy set of 120 PS to Test Server and play there. With as many tamers as you want. 

JenniferMarie

^^^ This ... the difference in damage between a pet with full 110's and full 120's is negligible.

You are so much better off using full 110's and sinking those points saved into the regens and mana. Having considerably more mana and maxed out mana regen will mean exponentially more damage over the life of a fight than having full 120's and having AI's that hit for 10-15 more per hit, but only getting in a handful of hits over the life of the fight because there isn't enough mana for more.

And I sell a full set of 110's for the 7 base pet skills on my vendors for 12.5m as a bundle.

Compare that to a full set of 120's.

Tyrath

 AS long as there is a infinite number of plats available from 3rd party sellers for really CHEAP there will be no fixing the economy.