Measure of a good thief

Grimbeard

Arnie used to borrow things. He's eaten 12 level 3 primers and 27 120 ps all snatched from someone's pack while he's long since retired he does miss it  at times..

Victim_Of_Siege

Thief?? what's that?

Acid_Rain

Thieves r easy templates w all the scripts available that management ignores. Scan target for id #s, auto target, auto smoke bomb... its almost a fully automated template. All u really have 2 do is log urself in.

Grimbeard

Acid_Rain said:

Thieves r easy templates w all the scripts available that management ignores. Scan target for id #s, auto target, auto smoke bomb... its almost a fully automated template. All u really have 2 do is log urself in.

Macro helpful for grabbing then eating scroll or primer but you still gotta sneak up and stand next to whoever is killing champ..

Petra_Fyde

I would say the measure of a good thief is achieving your objective without using scripts? What sense of achievement or pride is there in having everything done for you? 
I don't play pvp, my thief only steals from Mobs - and if you want to see how she does it I can link you to a video or two. I wouldn't stoop to using a script to do it, that's not 'playing' the game.

JohnKnighthawke

Grimbeard said:

Acid_Rain said:

Thieves r easy templates w all the scripts available that management ignores. Scan target for id #s, auto target, auto smoke bomb... its almost a fully automated template. All u really have 2 do is log urself in.

Macro helpful for grabbing then eating scroll or primer but you still gotta sneak up and stand next to whoever is killing champ..

As I recall, can't you script movement and set detailed parameters for it?

JohnKnighthawke

Acid_Rain said:

Thieves r easy templates w all the scripts available that management ignores. Scan target for id #s, auto target, auto smoke bomb... its almost a fully automated template. All u really have 2 do is log urself in.

Could you get around the manual login problem by combining Windows Task Scheduler and a batch program?

JenniferMarie

I have always felt creating, setting up, and using scripts to be the UO equivalent of my kids thinking up ways to avoid brushing their teeth or cleaning their bedrooms ...

JohnKnighthawke

They really need to come up with Tram/PvM type stuff to do with thieves. Even if PvP thieving didn't exist at all (and consider that the Fel lifestyle has been a distinct minority of players since another option existed!!!), we're right now missing out on a long-standing fantasy archetype. Especially when you consider that fighter-thief (the classic D&D thief) is not a viable template in PvM.

(Or am I missing something there? If so let me know, maybe I'll have time to try it out.)

I've always wondered if it was viable to collapse skills (lockpicking, stealing, cartography, snooping, etc., maybe also including ranger skills like tracking) into one 'rogue' skill, and give it some combat bonuses too, and make it not work with other combat skills.

Of course with our luck they'd make it over-powered.

keven2002

JohnKnighthawke said:

They really need to come up with Tram/PvM type stuff to do with thieves. Even if PvP thieving didn't exist at all (and consider that the Fel lifestyle has been a distinct minority of players since another option existed!!!), we're right now missing out on a long-standing fantasy archetype. Especially when you consider that fighter-thief (the classic D&D thief) is not a viable template in PvM.

(Or am I missing something there? If so let me know, maybe I'll have time to try it out.)

I've always wondered if it was viable to collapse skills (lockpicking, stealing, cartography, snooping, etc., maybe also including ranger skills like tracking) into one 'rogue' skill, and give it some combat bonuses too, and make it not work with other combat skills.

Of course with our luck they'd make it over-powered.

By nature of the profession (thief) they are lurking in the shadows which doesn't lend itself to actually fighting. It kind of defeats the purpose of stealing from something if you can just as well kill it and take that item (and everything else they have). 

I did semi-recently create a PvP thief which is more so a survive-ability template rather than killing template. IE when I find something to steal (or become revealed and attacked) I will be able to get away rather than be killed. This template worked pretty well in Khuldan during Halloween as I was looking for relics. I've also gotten credit for killing Krampus (only tried once) this year just by casting EVs and healing some sampires... it's no where near as effective of a template as almost any other toon I have but it works (although group play is an absolute must here). 

The biggest problem for me is what you mentioned initially where there just isn't much reason to use a thief. I've brought my thief into Deceit this year to steal from monsters and 90% of the time I'm only getting 100-200gp or some gems and then their backpack is empty... no reason to bring my thief out for that. Especially when it flags my thief for like 3minutes or so as a criminal (even when stealing from monsters) where I can't recall so in the dungeon I literally need to run all the way out to be "safe".

The counter problem to changing this is that given mob AI is pretty dumb (they can't even open doors half the time) it could be incredibly OP if thieves were able to steal items of archlich so it's quite the dilemma.

Grimbeard

Keep in mind i used macros available in first CC with uoassist then base EC also keep in mind every player uses scripts as that's all macros are..

Petra_Fyde

JohnKnighthawke said:

They really need to come up with Tram/PvM type stuff to do with thieves. Even if PvP thieving didn't exist at all (and consider that the Fel lifestyle has been a distinct minority of players since another option existed!!!), we're right now missing out on a long-standing fantasy archetype. Especially when you consider that fighter-thief (the classic D&D thief) is not a viable template in PvM.

(Or am I missing something there? If so let me know, maybe I'll have time to try it out.)

I've always wondered if it was viable to collapse skills (lockpicking, stealing, cartography, snooping, etc., maybe also including ranger skills like tracking) into one 'rogue' skill, and give it some combat bonuses too, and make it not work with other combat skills.

Of course with our luck they'd make it over-powered.

Do you not consider these two activities to fit your description? 
https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/pvm-player-versus-monster/stealing-from-monsters/
My vid of that
https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/pvm-player-versus-monster/stealing-in-exodus-dungeon/
My vid of that

Victim_Of_Siege

I'm confused, What's a thief again??   
*walks away with everyone's wallet*

popps

Petra_Fyde said:

JohnKnighthawke said:

They really need to come up with Tram/PvM type stuff to do with thieves. Even if PvP thieving didn't exist at all (and consider that the Fel lifestyle has been a distinct minority of players since another option existed!!!), we're right now missing out on a long-standing fantasy archetype. Especially when you consider that fighter-thief (the classic D&D thief) is not a viable template in PvM.

(Or am I missing something there? If so let me know, maybe I'll have time to try it out.)

I've always wondered if it was viable to collapse skills (lockpicking, stealing, cartography, snooping, etc., maybe also including ranger skills like tracking) into one 'rogue' skill, and give it some combat bonuses too, and make it not work with other combat skills.

Of course with our luck they'd make it over-powered.

Do you not consider these two activities to fit your description? 
https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/pvm-player-versus-monster/stealing-from-monsters/
My vid of that
https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/combat/pvm-player-versus-monster/stealing-in-exodus-dungeon/
My vid of that

As in regards to stealing in Exodus Dungeon, I am afraid that, both from Zealots and from the Hidden Dungeon Chests, and this even with decent Luck (1,500+ worn Luck, which is not easy to fit in a Rogue template with Hiding, Stealthing, Stealing, Snooping, Detect Hidden, Lockpicking, and Magery and thus requiring quite a few skill points on items...), the rate of getting Exodus keys is abysmally much lower as compared to just killing spawn in the Exodus Dungeon.

A Template geared for killing Spawn in the Exodus Dungeon can get a whole lot more Exodus keys per hour of gameplay as compared to what a Rogue can....

Simply put, using a Rogue template in the Exodus Dungeon to get Exodus keys, even when having decent Luck worn, is not worth it. Better use a fighting character, instead.

Perhaps, @Kyronix , you might want to increase, and quite significantly, the chances for a Rogue character to steal Exodus keys from Exodus Zealots or to be found in Hidden Exodus Dungeon chests ?

It would be at least a start in bringing back for players some reasons to want to use a Rogue, at least for some type of gameplay in UO.....

Petra_Fyde

My thief's template, all real skill:

Luck is 1880 without the statue bonus. I guess her suit could have been expensive, if I'd bought the things she wears instead of getting them by hunting over the years.  
Also, I don't always do Exodus for the keys, it's fun to do anyway, and there are other 'prizes' to be won from doing it.

I can take her magery up a bit with a tome of lost knowledge if I want to cast EVs or earth eles etc. I can take her stealth up a bit with a dress from Blackthorn's, but I don't really need to. 

Sure I could use a fighting character, but it's nice to have a change of pace sometimes. As I've said several times before, I play for FUN. profit is waaay down on my priority list.

keven2002

You are correct @popps that things come slower to a thief for sure when it comes to keys etc. That said, the entire profession is built around patience so it kind of just goes with the territory (kind like with fishing). 

I think if anything they should have more thief quests / rewards. Something like you go see Slim in new Mag and he has you go steal X items to fill orders and you get rewards that way. It would give a purpose to stealing skill and a bit of direction rather than randomness in what you steal.

loop

Petra_Fyde said:

My thief's template, all real skill:

Luck is 1880 without the statue bonus. I guess her suit could have been expensive, if I'd bought the things she wears instead of getting them by hunting over the years.  
Also, I don't always do Exodus for the keys, it's fun to do anyway, and there are other 'prizes' to be won from doing it.

I can take her magery up a bit with a tome of lost knowledge if I want to cast EVs or earth eles etc. I can take her stealth up a bit with a dress from Blackthorn's, but I don't really need to. 

Sure I could use a fighting character, but it's nice to have a change of pace sometimes. As I've said several times before, I play for FUN. profit is waaay down on my priority list.

Thanks for sharing your template. A lot of stuff in UO is built around combat these days, so a change of pace can be fun.

Do you need Snooping for any of the hidden chest content or for stealing from monsters, or is it entirely only useful when stealing from players?

Petra_Fyde

Snooping is required, though only used passively, to get special items when stealing from Zealots, without it you can only steal gold from them.

keven2002

I believe snooping is required in order to steal Exodus keys... outside of that I don't think it has a use in Tram.

popps

Petra_Fyde said:

My thief's template, all real skill:

Luck is 1880 without the statue bonus. I guess her suit could have been expensive, if I'd bought the things she wears instead of getting them by hunting over the years.  
Also, I don't always do Exodus for the keys, it's fun to do anyway, and there are other 'prizes' to be won from doing it.

I can take her magery up a bit with a tome of lost knowledge if I want to cast EVs or earth eles etc. I can take her stealth up a bit with a dress from Blackthorn's, but I don't really need to. 

Sure I could use a fighting character, but it's nice to have a change of pace sometimes. As I've said several times before, I play for FUN. profit is waaay down on my priority list.

Personally, I think it is an enjoyable change from the "routine" of getting items in UO from fighting, that the Developers made it possible to get things, exodus keys included, in the Exodus Dungeon, by using a non-fighting "Rogue" character.... either stealing from Zealots, or finding Hidden Chests in the Exodus dungeons.

Unfortunately, a very good Design idea to offer to players a change from the fighting "routine", at least to my opinion, was ruined by the abysmally low rate at which, even with "decent" worn Luck, the chances to get Exodus keys either from stealing from Zealots or to find them in Hidden Chests, were then set to be at, by the Developers.

Just try it out, either go to the Exodus Dungeon with a fighting character "fit" for efficient combat down there, or with a rogue to steal from Zealots or to find them in Hidden Chests, for a couple of hours of gameplay.... and then see how many Exodus keys you gathered either way....

The fighting way is a LOT more efficient and yields a lot more keys in the same time frame.... it just makes using a Rogue not worth it in that Dungeon, IMHO.

Which is sad, to my viewing, because it may deter players from wanting to use a Rogue, rather then a fighting character, in order to get Exodus keys.

The numbers, to my viewing, should not differ too much, whether a player uses combat characters or a Rogue, non-fighting character, to get Exodus keys..... this way, players wanting to have a change to the fighting "routine", would not find themselves at such a disadvantage from using a combat character.

Not to mention, of course, the multi-scripters who go down there with 3+ dexers synchronized with the same macro, killing everything that moves in no time who can collect tons of keys in hardly any time.... forget about even dreaming of being so efficient with a rogue character ..... why would then a player want to use a rogue character that is so much at a disadvantage ?

Grimbeard

popps said:

Petra_Fyde said:

My thief's template, all real skill:

Luck is 1880 without the statue bonus. I guess her suit could have been expensive, if I'd bought the things she wears instead of getting them by hunting over the years.  
Also, I don't always do Exodus for the keys, it's fun to do anyway, and there are other 'prizes' to be won from doing it.

I can take her magery up a bit with a tome of lost knowledge if I want to cast EVs or earth eles etc. I can take her stealth up a bit with a dress from Blackthorn's, but I don't really need to. 

Sure I could use a fighting character, but it's nice to have a change of pace sometimes. As I've said several times before, I play for FUN. profit is waaay down on my priority list.

Personally, I think it is an enjoyable change from the "routine" of getting items in UO from fighting, that the Developers made it possible to get things, exodus keys included, in the Exodus Dungeon, by using a non-fighting "Rogue" character.... either stealing from Zealots, or finding Hidden Chests in the Exodus dungeons.

Unfortunately, a very good Design idea to offer to players a change from the fighting "routine", at least to my opinion, was ruined by the abysmally low rate at which, even with "decent" worn Luck, the chances to get Exodus keys either from stealing from Zealots or to find them in Hidden Chests, were then set to be at, by the Developers.

Just try it out, either go to the Exodus Dungeon with a fighting character "fit" for efficient combat down there, or with a rogue to steal from Zealots or to find them in Hidden Chests, for a couple of hours of gameplay.... and then see how many Exodus keys you gathered either way....

The fighting way is a LOT more efficient and yields a lot more keys in the same time frame.... it just makes using a Rogue not worth it in that Dungeon, IMHO.

Which is sad, to my viewing, because it may deter players from wanting to use a Rogue, rather then a fighting character, in order to get Exodus keys.

The numbers, to my viewing, should not differ too much, whether a player uses combat characters or a Rogue, non-fighting character, to get Exodus keys..... this way, players wanting to have a change to the fighting "routine", would not find themselves at such a disadvantage from using a combat character.

Not to mention, of course, the multi-scripters who go down there with 3+ dexers synchronized with the same macro, killing everything that moves in no time who can collect tons of keys in hardly any time.... forget about even dreaming of being so efficient with a rogue character ..... why would then a player want to use a rogue character that is so much at a disadvantage ?

Well popps has managed to STEAL  this thread so good job  

popps

Grimbeard said:

popps said:

Petra_Fyde said:

My thief's template, all real skill:

Luck is 1880 without the statue bonus. I guess her suit could have been expensive, if I'd bought the things she wears instead of getting them by hunting over the years.  
Also, I don't always do Exodus for the keys, it's fun to do anyway, and there are other 'prizes' to be won from doing it.

I can take her magery up a bit with a tome of lost knowledge if I want to cast EVs or earth eles etc. I can take her stealth up a bit with a dress from Blackthorn's, but I don't really need to. 

Sure I could use a fighting character, but it's nice to have a change of pace sometimes. As I've said several times before, I play for FUN. profit is waaay down on my priority list.

Personally, I think it is an enjoyable change from the "routine" of getting items in UO from fighting, that the Developers made it possible to get things, exodus keys included, in the Exodus Dungeon, by using a non-fighting "Rogue" character.... either stealing from Zealots, or finding Hidden Chests in the Exodus dungeons.

Unfortunately, a very good Design idea to offer to players a change from the fighting "routine", at least to my opinion, was ruined by the abysmally low rate at which, even with "decent" worn Luck, the chances to get Exodus keys either from stealing from Zealots or to find them in Hidden Chests, were then set to be at, by the Developers.

Just try it out, either go to the Exodus Dungeon with a fighting character "fit" for efficient combat down there, or with a rogue to steal from Zealots or to find them in Hidden Chests, for a couple of hours of gameplay.... and then see how many Exodus keys you gathered either way....

The fighting way is a LOT more efficient and yields a lot more keys in the same time frame.... it just makes using a Rogue not worth it in that Dungeon, IMHO.

Which is sad, to my viewing, because it may deter players from wanting to use a Rogue, rather then a fighting character, in order to get Exodus keys.

The numbers, to my viewing, should not differ too much, whether a player uses combat characters or a Rogue, non-fighting character, to get Exodus keys..... this way, players wanting to have a change to the fighting "routine", would not find themselves at such a disadvantage from using a combat character.

Not to mention, of course, the multi-scripters who go down there with 3+ dexers synchronized with the same macro, killing everything that moves in no time who can collect tons of keys in hardly any time.... forget about even dreaming of being so efficient with a rogue character ..... why would then a player want to use a rogue character that is so much at a disadvantage ?

Well popps has managed to STEAL  this thread so good job  

How so, when all the thread is about, to my understanding, is discussing the fact that Rogues characters are not much playable in UO (the OP talks about a "retired" thief....) which it is, precisely what I talk about in my post ?

It looks to me that my argument is right on spot, hardly a derailment of the thread....

Petra_Fyde

popps said:. why would then a player want to use a rogue character that is so much at a disadvantage ?

Because:
1. It's FUN
2. Because a thief gets other things besides Exodus key:  Smoke bombs, Parasitic potions, Invis potions, small gems for imbuing, Imbuing essences and ML ingredients, not to mention a considerable quantity of gold.

For the parasitic potions alone it can be a worthwhile trip, those potions take 5 parasitic plants each, and they're not easy to get, which makes filling a 'toxic' BoD difficult, unless you have access to the King's Collection sponge.

keven2002

Petra_Fyde said:

popps said:. why would then a player want to use a rogue character that is so much at a disadvantage ?

Because:
1. It's FUN
2. Because a thief gets other things besides Exodus key:  Smoke bombs, Parasitic potions, Invis potions, small gems for imbuing, Imbuing essences and ML ingredients, not to mention a considerable quantity of gold.

For the parasitic potions alone it can be a worthwhile trip, those potions take 5 parasitic plants each, and they're not easy to get, which makes filling a 'toxic' BoD difficult, unless you have access to the King's Collection sponge.

I agree with you Petra. Essentially playing a thief is like playing any other non-fighting template and the same question (and answer) could be given.

It the same thing for people playing bards/fishers/crafters etc. Those professions are all slower at raising money (or getting exodus keys) compared to a warrior but people do it because it's something different to do. If every profession got you to the same place then you would basically just have the first Diablo where it didn't matter what you chose Beserker/Mage/etc you still killed all the same stuff and got to the same point...just slightly different graphics. 

@popps - You keep harping on gathering Exodus keys but what is your end game of gathering those keys? You haven;'t said anything about a thief killing the clockwork exodus; likely because they can't. Keys only last a week too so I'm not sure why you keep going back to exodus keys. This goes back to my point that thieves by nature are not warriors or dominant fighters. I agree a thief revamp of things to do is needed but I wouldn't consider exodus keys specifically an issue. 

Theo

I’ve never played a thief but it seems interesting and I always think of this when the topic comes up. Midas was brilliant! 

https://youtu.be/SCbuB6Mzcqw

keven2002

Theo said:

I’ve never played a thief but it seems interesting and I always think of this when the topic comes up. Midas was brilliant! 

https://youtu.be/SCbuB6Mzcqw

I played a thief 20 years ago (still have him today) that was very fun to play for PvP. It was back before insurance and LRC when you would just need to steal someone garlic or bandaids to prevent them from being able to heal. They would immediately attack, not knowing that I had fencing and I'd equip a spear and start poking them, usually making short work of them since they had no way to heal. Good times

popps

Petra_Fyde said:

popps said:. why would then a player want to use a rogue character that is so much at a disadvantage ?

Because:
1. It's FUN
2. Because a thief gets other things besides Exodus key:  Smoke bombs, Parasitic potions, Invis potions, small gems for imbuing, Imbuing essences and ML ingredients, not to mention a considerable quantity of gold.

For the parasitic potions alone it can be a worthwhile trip, those potions take 5 parasitic plants each, and they're not easy to get, which makes filling a 'toxic' BoD difficult, unless you have access to the King's Collection sponge.

While it might be fun, still, some players might be time limited and, thus, when they realize how much faster it is to just go down the Exodus Dungeon and kill stuff to get the keys, they might leave their Rogue character to collect dust, nonetheless....

Which it is, like the OP mentiones "he's long since retired....." when talking about a thief.....

What I am trying to say is, that, fun is only part of the equation when playing a character in an item based game, me thinks..... the other part of the equation should be, that, using that "fun" character, players should also not be so largely disadvantaged at getting items as compared to using other, less fun, characters....

I mean, how much work would it be, really, to just increase the chances for thieves to steal Exodus keys from Zealots or to find them in Hidden chests so that their playability was to be "more on par" with fighting characters?

I imagine, that it might just be a number to change in line of code, not sure (I might well be wrong in my assumption...) in order to make it more probable for a thief to steal succesfully an Exodus key from a Zealot or find one in an Hidden chest, thus bringing their efficiency more in line to that of fighting characters and, thus, making Rogues, t least in that setting, more playable because, aside from being fun playing,  also being as efficient as a fighting character.

That is at least how I see it.

JohnKnighthawke

One issue in this thread (and it occurs to me that I don't even know if it was an issue that the original poster was intending to raise, so sorry if not!) is a disconnect between different definitions of thief for UO purposes. Everyone's going to want different things.

Too many posters are thinking of thieves in the early days of UO when thievery was used as a means of hurting other players, primarily (not exclusively) players who otherwise were just bystanders other than pestering you merely by existing and potentially having something you want. This was a lot of fun for the thieves but no one else hence some early problems in this game's commercial viability!

I was thinking of a classic fantasy, D&D-style thief, which is basically a stealth and cleverness oriented fighter who can also steal things and pick locks and the like. I'm probably conflating treasure hunting type characters with thief type characters I guess. In most fantasy they're the same type but in UO they're distinct for the most part. And I've always been concerned with the lack of ability to reflect such a fantasy archetype in UO. I have a feeling though after literal decades of playing this game it's time to stop that concern! I have many concerns that are way more important, and viable, than this one!

And lastly some are thinking about how to have fun in UO using different skills including but not limited to Stealing. Those folks are to be praised and I kinda feel sad that I'm not one of them.

popps

keven2002 said:

Petra_Fyde said:

popps said:. why would then a player want to use a rogue character that is so much at a disadvantage ?

Because:
1. It's FUN
2. Because a thief gets other things besides Exodus key:  Smoke bombs, Parasitic potions, Invis potions, small gems for imbuing, Imbuing essences and ML ingredients, not to mention a considerable quantity of gold.

For the parasitic potions alone it can be a worthwhile trip, those potions take 5 parasitic plants each, and they're not easy to get, which makes filling a 'toxic' BoD difficult, unless you have access to the King's Collection sponge.

I agree with you Petra. Essentially playing a thief is like playing any other non-fighting template and the same question (and answer) could be given.

It the same thing for people playing bards/fishers/crafters etc. Those professions are all slower at raising money (or getting exodus keys) compared to a warrior but people do it because it's something different to do. If every profession got you to the same place then you would basically just have the first Diablo where it didn't matter what you chose Beserker/Mage/etc you still killed all the same stuff and got to the same point...just slightly different graphics. 

@ popps - You keep harping on gathering Exodus keys but what is your end game of gathering those keys? You haven;'t said anything about a thief killing the clockwork exodus; likely because they can't. Keys only last a week too so I'm not sure why you keep going back to exodus keys. This goes back to my point that thieves by nature are not warriors or dominant fighters. I agree a thief revamp of things to do is needed but I wouldn't consider exodus keys specifically an issue. 

You keep harping on gathering Exodus keys but what is your end game of gathering those keys? You haven;'t said anything about a thief killing the clockwork exodus; likely because they can't. 

Sure, Clockwork Exodus needs fighting characters to be killed, nonetheless, as it was mentioned, there might be players who, "for a change", might prefer to use a "non-fighting" Rogue character to gather the keys and THEN, use their other, fighting character to go fight the Clockwork Exodus.....

Yet, while they might like the idea of using, "for a change", a non-fighting Rogue character to gather the Exodus keys, the abysmally much lower, to my opinion, chance of getting keys as compared to using a fighting character to gather them, might totally deter them from using a Rogue and make them "dust" their Rogue and just use a Fighting character all along the line....

THIS, is what I am trying to argue about....

The OP talks about a "retired" thief character.... I am just voicing up withan example that, perhaps, just perhaps, there are sound reasons about "why" players may have retired Rogues in UO, if other characters can get the job done faster, more efficiently....

Petra_Fyde

My last word on this topic.

Dictionary Definition
play:
engage in activity for enjoyment and recreation rather than a serious or practical purpose.

This is how I play UO. It's not a 'job', I don't need to do it faster, or more efficiently, I just need to enjoy it.

Grimbeard

popps said:

keven2002 said:

Petra_Fyde said:

popps said:. why would then a player want to use a rogue character that is so much at a disadvantage ?

Because:
1. It's FUN
2. Because a thief gets other things besides Exodus key:  Smoke bombs, Parasitic potions, Invis potions, small gems for imbuing, Imbuing essences and ML ingredients, not to mention a considerable quantity of gold.

For the parasitic potions alone it can be a worthwhile trip, those potions take 5 parasitic plants each, and they're not easy to get, which makes filling a 'toxic' BoD difficult, unless you have access to the King's Collection sponge.

I agree with you Petra. Essentially playing a thief is like playing any other non-fighting template and the same question (and answer) could be given.

It the same thing for people playing bards/fishers/crafters etc. Those professions are all slower at raising money (or getting exodus keys) compared to a warrior but people do it because it's something different to do. If every profession got you to the same place then you would basically just have the first Diablo where it didn't matter what you chose Beserker/Mage/etc you still killed all the same stuff and got to the same point...just slightly different graphics. 

@ popps - You keep harping on gathering Exodus keys but what is your end game of gathering those keys? You haven;'t said anything about a thief killing the clockwork exodus; likely because they can't. Keys only last a week too so I'm not sure why you keep going back to exodus keys. This goes back to my point that thieves by nature are not warriors or dominant fighters. I agree a thief revamp of things to do is needed but I wouldn't consider exodus keys specifically an issue. 

You keep harping on gathering Exodus keys but what is your end game of gathering those keys? You haven;'t said anything about a thief killing the clockwork exodus; likely because they can't. 

Sure, Clockwork Exodus needs fighting characters to be killed, nonetheless, as it was mentioned, there might be players who, "for a change", might prefer to use a "non-fighting" Rogue character to gather the keys and THEN, use their other, fighting character to go fight the Clockwork Exodus.....

Yet, while they might like the idea of using, "for a change", a non-fighting Rogue character to gather the Exodus keys, the abysmally much lower, to my opinion, chance of getting keys as compared to using a fighting character to gather them, might totally deter them from using a Rogue and make them "dust" their Rogue and just use a Fighting character all along the line....

THIS, is what I am trying to argue about....

The OP talks about a "retired" thief character.... I am just voicing up withan example that, perhaps, just perhaps, there are sound reasons about "why" players may have retired Rogues in UO, if other characters can get the job done faster, more efficiently....

Clearly the title of my post measure of a good thief was clear popps should go start another what's wrong with thieves if that's what he wants to discuss