Could we get Anti-Virtue Titles

Riner

There is a quest line to provide titles for the specific Virtues, which is really nice to have, but not all toons have a positive outlook. Who really wants a Dread Lord with the title The Honorable? Could you consider adding a similar mechanic for the Anti-Virtues? Would be nice to have Anti-Virtue title for my Dread Lady Necro and I'm sure some of the pvp'ers might like a special Anti-Virtue title or perhaps Thieves? There are many negatively leaning toons who have been left behind by the search for a Virtue title. 

Pawain

Shrine battles in Fel would be a hot mess on LS.

New color tabards!

Guess it can't be done because of Siege 

JenniferMarie

How would Siege be an obstacle to this idea? [[Which, by the way, is actually pretty darned fantastic.]]

The Anti-Virtues are essentially tied in with the dungeons [[as anyone who's ever had to memorize it all for Orchard can attest]]. So honestly, all that would need to be done is those mysterious fragment thingies would need a new set of colors and the Anti-Virtue applied behind the scenes, then you just do the appropriate "shrine" (Spirituality for Hythloth, etc.) and then gain an appropriate tabard and title.

So instead of The Spiritual, you'd get The Blasphemous ... or whatever.

Siege "problem" solved?

Pawain

JenniferMarie said:

How would Siege be an obstacle to this idea? [[Which, by the way, is actually pretty darned fantastic.]]

The Anti-Virtues are essentially tied in with the dungeons [[as anyone who's ever had to memorize it all for Orchard can attest]]. So honestly, all that would need to be done is those mysterious fragment thingies would need a new set of colors and the Anti-Virtue applied behind the scenes, then you just do the appropriate "shrine" (Spirituality for Hythloth, etc.) and then gain an appropriate tabard and title.

So instead of The Spiritual, you'd get The Blasphemous ... or whatever.

Siege "problem" solved?

Since Seige does not have a trammel and fel...

They could do new colors and use in tram. But the real anti virtue players would not be able to do them.

Garth_Grey

Lust
Gluttony
Greed 
Sloth
Wrath
Envy 
Pride

Need an 8th for symmetry ....

keven2002

Are we talking anti-virtue or deadly sins? lol

We already have anti-virtues in the game (as seen in the orchard at Shadowguard). No need to over complicate

Garth_Grey

I was just telling myself a few days ago that I'm being too Hythlothy....and I googled it and it's an old word meaning Pride...which there is already anti virtue for. I think the OP was looking for something to coincide with the virtues, and that would be sins...how's that for being Destard ? Which is another word I goggled and it's a UO word only as far as I found...my advice to the OP is to change the title of the post so those that think they need to immediately chime in and say how we already have Anti virtues, won't do that...

Mariah

Destard = Dastard = coward, ie the opposite of Valor.

Garth_Grey

So you're saying Destard is really Dastard ? Can you link to that, otherwise it's just an assumption. And the definition of dastardly is Wicked and Cruel, not cowardly.

Mariah

My google search for Destard gave me this:

The name “Destard” is likely derived from “dastard”, meaning an insidious coward. In Runes of Virtue, Destard, known as the Cavern of Cowardice, appears on Verity Isle. The rune of Valor can be found within the dungeon, as well, a powerful magic rope which allows the hero to cross waterways dwells within its depths.

https://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Destard

keven2002

Garth_Grey said:

I was just telling myself a few days ago that I'm being too Hythlothy....and I googled it and it's an old word meaning Pride...which there is already anti virtue for. I think the OP was looking for something to coincide with the virtues, and that would be sins...how's that for being Destard ? Which is another word I goggled and it's a UO word only as far as I found...my advice to the OP is to change the title of the post so those that think they need to immediately chime in and say how we already have Anti virtues, won't do that...

While we are at defining words for use in the English language..

Can you give me your definition of immediately? Because I'm assuming you are referring to my comment (which somehow made you butt-hurt) which i made this morning.... 2 days after the OP (and my first on this topic). You and the Devs must have the same definition of immediate because as per them; their bug fixes are also "immediate". 

Pawain

Garth_Grey said:

Lust
Gluttony
Greed 
Sloth
Wrath
Envy 
Pride

Need an 8th for symmetry ....

Seven deadly sins.  Not UO lore.

You can read about each anti virtue here and see their symbol used in the artisan festival rewards.
https://www.uoguide.com/Anti-Virtues


Hythloth is weird. It has a rock for the symbol. But it's a quarter moon. Which could refer to the moon as a rock.

Each vice could have a title. Add an er or ful to the words in Kevens chart. Wrong and Hythloth would have to be modified.

JenniferMarie

Virtue: Compassionate vs. Anti-Virtue: Tyrannical

Virtue: Honorable vs. Anti-Virtue: Shameful

Virtue: Honest vs. Anti-Virtue: Deceitful

Virtue: Humble vs. Anti-Virtue: Insolent

Virtue: Just vs. Anti-Virtue: Corrupt

Virtue: Sacrificing vs. Anti-Virtue: Greedy

Virtue: Spiritual vs. Anti-Virtue: Irreverent

Virtue: Valiant vs. Anti-Virtue: Cowardly

... it's not too terribly difficult.

Also, to my initial replay to this post and the criticism it received: the Anti-Virtue titles could be gotten in either Fel or Tram which would allow Siege/Mugen to have access to them as well as any red characters on every other shard.

Riner

I agree with @JenniferMarie here that there is no reason receiving the titles would have to be limited to Fel but I would prefer they be offered there at least or maybe only there and make an exception for Siege/Mugen. I mean exceptions are made periodically on how things are done for different servers often. For example, having the event dungeon in Fel on some servers and not on others. 

As for Anti-Virtues I was referring to the list given in UO and found for instance in the orchard. The Titles could be reflective of those. 

Pawain

Also make an anti virtue tile quest. To go along with it.

Garth_Grey

keven2002 said:

Garth_Grey said:

I was just telling myself a few days ago that I'm being too Hythlothy....and I googled it and it's an old word meaning Pride...which there is already anti virtue for. I think the OP was looking for something to coincide with the virtues, and that would be sins...how's that for being Destard ? Which is another word I goggled and it's a UO word only as far as I found...my advice to the OP is to change the title of the post so those that think they need to immediately chime in and say how we already have Anti virtues, won't do that...

While we are at defining words for use in the English language..

Can you give me your definition of immediately? Because I'm assuming you are referring to my comment (which somehow made you butt-hurt) which i made this morning.... 2 days after the OP (and my first on this topic). You and the Devs must have the same definition of immediate because as per them; their bug fixes are also "immediate". 

dot dot dot

Yoshi

Garth_Grey said:

Lust
Gluttony
Greed 
Sloth
Wrath
Envy 
Pride

Need an 8th for symmetry ....

“Pretty sure the last one is Doc
everyone always forgets Doc”

JenniferMarie

Grumpy was always my favorite ...

TXEggplant

I love this idea and I love the idea of the shrine battles being in Fel. I know, though, that so many people would be upset if they were only in Fel. 

I think you can be lustful, gluttonous, greedy, slothful, wrathful, envious and prideful all in Tram but there should be one(s) for Fel shrines. Are you really a dread lord/lady if you never venture there? Are you really someone to envied and feared if you spend all your time in Trammel? I mean, it is a rp game but still ... 

And I'm not saying this to cast aspersions on anyone or their playstyle. I'm just saying that if you want a title, then you should really have to earn it. I can go kill dogs all day and get to be Dread Lady but really, I'm just a coward who kills dogs. 

Speaking of Doc, why not a title for someone who heals others more than other players. Can that kind of thing even be tracked? 

Doc-healer
Grumpy-a lot of their text looks like !@#$* from too much in-game swearing
Bashful-Hides in war mode a lot
Sleepy-only logs in at night
Happy-lots of !!! and in their in-game chat
Sneezy-miners? picking wheat a lot? Gardener?
Dopey-I have no idea! I feel dopiest when I recall somewhere and realize it's not what I meant to do and recall somewhere else immediately. Or maybe ... someone who eats those special mushrooms as their main source of food and uses petals and potions a LOT haha! I don't think Dopey was that kind of dwarf but ... we don't know!

daric

There is no single reason why possible anti-virtue titles could be get from trammel side. Anti-virtues comes by shadowlords so if it would be possible get those titles from trammel side could as well move shadowlords faction to trammel side too.

JenniferMarie

I will never understand why people in this game seem to think that Fel is the ONLY place where "bad" people are.

Yes, Fel = PvP ... but there are plenty of bad actors in Tram. I'd argue some people who never go to Fel are actually worse than straight PKs because at least you expect a PK to kill you.

Anti-Virtue just means someone who is not dedicated to living by the Virtues and usually chooses to do the opposite. Why in the world would that ONLY be available in Fel?

In fact, I'd argue ... There is no single reason why Anti-Virtue titles should only be gotten in Fel.

See, some of us actually do think of the Fel players, PKs, and reds. No one here is arguing for the idea to be Tram Only - but rather hoping most people will go to Fel to get them, but they could be gotten in Tram as well for the unwilling.

keven2002

JenniferMarie said:

I will never understand why people in this game seem to think that Fel is the ONLY place where "bad" people are.

Yes, Fel = PvP ... but there are plenty of bad actors in Tram. I'd argue some people who never go to Fel are actually worse than straight PKs because at least you expect a PK to kill you.

I agree. Majority of what I see posted on here when talking about Fel are people basically making it seem like all of Fel is the equivalent of Bucs Den where only unsavory people hang out which couldn't be further from the truth. There are a lot of good people that go to Fel.

The thing about Fel that most of the nay sayers overlook is that there is actually some sort of checks and balance system for people who want to be a "bad" person. Act like a jerk in Fel outside of town and there is a chance you will get PK'ed for it (or if you are a red player in general) versus doing the same thing in Tram even at the deepest level of Deceit nothing will happen. Just about any scam I hear about takes place in Tram so it's not like nothing bad happens there... it's just when something bad does actually happen you are powerless to actually do anything about it.

Pawain

Posters have been asking for encounters in fel. This is perfect for that. Shrine battles are usually a group event. And done thru chat on LS at least.

So yall do not want encounters in fel?  I am not a fel fan but I would get new color tabards if it is there.

JenniferMarie

Do you purposefully ignore things that are ACTUALLY said, or do you just skim over people's responses without fully paying attention?

Not being snarky, I am genuinely asking. Because it has been stated specifically multiple times that something like this SHOULD be available in Fel - just not ONLY Fel.

I, personally, am firmly in the "if it's in Tram, it should be available in Fel also" camp. Beyond champ spawns, I don't see a point in things being just one or the other. I enjoy that trade deals from Tram cities can be carried into Fel for other rewards. I run champ spawns, and when Treasures Of ... events are in both Tram and Fel I typically choose to do them in Fel.

So where in the world did you get that people don't want something like this in Fel?

Pawain

JenniferMarie said:

Do you purposefully ignore things that are ACTUALLY said, or do you just skim over people's responses without fully paying attention?

Not being snarky, I am genuinely asking. Because it has been stated specifically multiple times that something like this SHOULD be available in Fel - just not ONLY Fel.

I, personally, am firmly in the "if it's in Tram, it should be available in Fel also" camp. Beyond champ spawns, I don't see a point in things being just one or the other. I enjoy that trade deals from Tram cities can be carried into Fel for other rewards. I run champ spawns, and when Treasures Of ... events are in both Tram and Fel I typically choose to do them in Fel.

So where in the world did you get that people don't want something like this in Fel?

I read what you say and think this should be in fel. I do not agree that it should be in tram. If you want anti virtues then go do it in fel.

Not going to happen anyway.  

But they should do another Black Gate quest for the other 8 stones.

Ivenor

Garth_Grey said:

Lust
Gluttony
Greed 
Sloth
Wrath
Envy 
Pride

Need an 8th for symmetry ....

COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT!!!

Merlin

JenniferMarie said:

Virtue: Compassionate vs. Anti-Virtue: Tyrannical

Virtue: Honorable vs. Anti-Virtue: Shameful

Virtue: Honest vs. Anti-Virtue: Deceitful

Virtue: Humble vs. Anti-Virtue: Insolent

Virtue: Just vs. Anti-Virtue: Corrupt

Virtue: Sacrificing vs. Anti-Virtue: Greedy

Virtue: Spiritual vs. Anti-Virtue: Irreverent

Virtue: Valiant vs. Anti-Virtue: Cowardly

... it's not too terribly difficult.

Also, to my initial replay to this post and the criticism it received: the Anti-Virtue titles could be gotten in either Fel or Tram which would allow Siege/Mugen to have access to them as well as any red characters on every other shard.

 This ^^^ 

I like the idea of these anti-virtue titles instead of necessarily using the current dungeon names.   Trick is finding a fun way to incorporate them that would have some replay value, like the current Shrine spawn fight system used for the virtues.    

JenniferMarie

Best way to do it is to have the "Shrine Battles" not at the shrines, but at the anti-virtue dungeons themselves.

JohnKnighthawke

UO's theology is different from Christian theology. So the Seven Deadly Sins or Seven Cardinal Sins are out. UO has "Sins" or "Anti-Virtues" that are opposite to the Virtues. (Here's something to consider: The Seven Deadly Sins are less "sins" in the sense of actions and more human traits that draw people to sin. As I recall they aren't in the Bible but emerged from Medieval theology.)

As to "Hythloth...." It's derived from "hylotheism," which is a belief system that nobody practices, equating the divine with the material.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hylotheism

Hence, it's opposite to Spirituality. Pride is opposite to Humility.

https://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Eight_Virtues

https://www.uoguide.com/Virtues

JohnKnighthawke

keven2002 said:

JenniferMarie said:

I will never understand why people in this game seem to think that Fel is the ONLY place where "bad" people are.

Yes, Fel = PvP ... but there are plenty of bad actors in Tram. I'd argue some people who never go to Fel are actually worse than straight PKs because at least you expect a PK to kill you.

t there is actually some sort of checks and balance system for people who want to be a "bad" person. Act like a jerk in Fel outside of town and there is a chance you will get PK'ed for it

Not correct. In reality what happened was that the jerks banded together for the purposes of being jerks, and forced everyone else out. They then could get away with whatever they wanted with no consequences outside being red and that's easy to remedy by having multiple characters. This essay on UO's early history:

https://massivelyop.com/2022/09/11/the-game-archaeologist-the-legacy-of-ultima-online/

admits that even as the folks who admit it clearly preferred the Fel lifestyle to playing the game and interacting on a consensual basis with other players. Consequences and player justice is a story y'all like to tell but it's just as much a fantasy as UO's lore is.

JenniferMarie

I wasn't introduced to UO until 2006, so I have absolutely no experience of the pre-Fel/Tram split.

I simply believe that there is very little valid reasoning behind not having general events in BOTH Fel and Tram. Treasures Of ... events; Shrine battles ... why keep them solely in Tram?

Plenty of people prefer Fel to Tram, even those who don't engage in PvP as a regular part of their game play. I have even been helped by random Reds before. (That's always an experience, since I see a red name and immediately presume I'm getting attacked so I run.)

And I know plenty of people who play solely in Tram and claim to be good/decent/nice but prove with their actions that they are anything but.

All of that is to say that the justifications of why things aren't in Fel, or why it's always an either/or situation, are as flimsy as an antique weapon with splintering.