How AFK flagging works

Been flagged now twice for no apparent reason but believe this morning I figured out how the flagging application works on the second floor near the steps.  First when I am there every once in a while a gaggle of three or four players or afk players (I can’t tell if they are present or afk they act real enough to me) comes down the steps killing every thing in sight which triggers additional spawn.  Second all the action congregates in front of the steps with lots of spawn big and small surrounded by these players with the action becoming hot and heavy, third I join in using meteor swarm (I can’t target anything when this happens so I use a spell that hits multiple targets).  Fourth the afk application profiles these players as being afk (quite possibly some of them are) based on this activity and it flags everyone in the general area since it’s looking at the overall activity and not individual players.  It’s a form of profiling.

That makes sense now.  No one looking specifically at my character would think I am afk.  I am always moving, playing independently and responding to what is happening.  I don’t fit the profile.  But when the gaggle of players comes down the overall activity does.  Usually, these guys don’t hang around long after the fight and I only see them come down occasionally, like when I get flagged.

Not accusing the players that come down all at once as being afk.  They seem normal enough to me.  Just saying the overall activity, and not what individual players are doing, triggers the afk flagging.

Not going to complain about the lack of any built in safeguards to prevent innocent players from being flagged.

Comments

  • Arnold7 said:
    Been flagged now twice for no apparent reason but believe this morning I figured out how the flagging application works on the second floor near the steps.  First when I am there every once in a while a gaggle of three or four players or afk players (I can’t tell if they are present or afk they act real enough to me) comes down the steps killing every thing in sight which triggers additional spawn.  Second all the action congregates in front of the steps with lots of spawn big and small surrounded by these players with the action becoming hot and heavy, third I join in using meteor swarm (I can’t target anything when this happens so I use a spell that hits multiple targets).  Fourth the afk application profiles these players as being afk (quite possibly some of them are) based on this activity and it flags everyone in the general area since it’s looking at the overall activity and not individual players.  It’s a form of profiling.

    That makes sense now.  No one looking specifically at my character would think I am afk.  I am always moving, playing independently and responding to what is happening.  I don’t fit the profile.  But when the gaggle of players comes down the overall activity does.  Usually, these guys don’t hang around long after the fight and I only see them come down occasionally, like when I get flagged.

    Not accusing the players that come down all at once as being afk.  They seem normal enough to me.  Just saying the overall activity, and not what individual players are doing, triggers the afk flagging.

    Not going to complain about the lack of any built in safeguards to prevent innocent players from being flagged



    If this is the case why are there many reports of groups running amok unchecked? 
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 976
    The game is hanging on by a thread but this needs to be and should have already been professionally addressed by someone on the team. @Kyronix @Bleak

    How does it work? Depend on people paging or is it an auto code? Will it lead to actions against the account? Is it just for the tot events or everywhere? Why is it flagging innocent players? What are you going to do moving forward to prevent it flagging innocent players?

    If it's outside of tot events I'd be highly pissed to spend an hour on quests to be flagged during the encounter because my disco tamer never moves. 
  • This seems a dupe of the thread here:
    https://forum.uo.com/discussion/11584/afk-out-of-control

    There's an important detail in a reply in that thread, if you read closely.

    Expanding on that, in deceit, perhaps people should recall to a new location if they see a "suspicious" group of players approaching.

    I have seen nothing to suggest what is in this thread applies outside deceit.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 7,114
    edited November 2022
     Above post...He is saying that these suspicious players will page on you. There is no actual standing still timer. Unless it is longer than 20 min. Too boring to test longer than that.

    That gaggle probably paged on Arnold because they did not want him taking their kills. Which proves there is someone sitting at their PC.

    Yall are getting actioned because others are paging on you. It's been that way the whole time.

    It's probably players who read the constant threads about Bots. They think any group is a Bot so they page on the because the internet told them to.  :D
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 966
    edited November 2022
    Suspected a player, like a gm, might have flagged me. the first time but did not know what it was called or how it was done.  Did not make sense that I was flagged.  Second time it appeared that being a part of the group doing the fighting was the common factor.  But was unaware players could cause other players to be flagged.  Both times it occurred I did not recognize any of the other players.  Not sure what paging is but your explanation but is right on.  Maybe it’s time for UO’s team to comment on this unless they want to continue to taking the blame for flagging innocent players.
  • UrgeUrge Posts: 976
    That may be the case but we should still know the who what when where and why of a system we know nothing about. 


  • usernameusername Posts: 355
    Urge said:
    That may be the case but we should still know the who what when where and why of a system we know nothing about. 


    https://forum.uo.com/discussion/11588/an-explanation-from-the-devs-regarding-deceit-afk-penalty-and-actioning-accounts-is-required
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  • PawainPawain Posts: 7,114
    edited November 2022
    Urge said:
    That may be the case but we should still know the who what when where and why of a system we know nothing about. 


    No then we will avoid the things that flag us. They will never tell us. 

    But, I still say others are paging on each other, probably because of all the BOT threads.

    The actual Bots answer the GMs question because they are at their gaming station. So now, according to the posters who are flagged,  they are just flagging the account without trying to talk to the player. I have not been flagged so I have no proof that a GM is not talking to flagged players.
  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 530
    edited November 2022
    In reading the last meet and greet notes, one of the few sensible replies was somebody saying they wouldn't tell you how the logic works.  Your bank won't tell you how the fraud detection logic works, when it goes awry when making a $2 purchase at a convenience store (but never triggers when making a multi thousand $ purchase).  The bank will turn off the fraud detection logic on your account in special case circumstances if you make enough noise.

    The notion this is being triggered by players paging is 100% nonsense.  That's based on my own observations. 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 7,114
    In reading the last meet and greet notes, one of the few sensible replies was somebody saying they wouldn't tell you how the logic works.  Your bank won't tell you how the fraud detection logic works, when it goes awry when making a $2 purchase at a convenience store (but never triggers when making a multi thousand $ purchase).  The bank will turn off the fraud detection logic on your account in special case circumstances if you make enough noise.

    The notion this is being triggered by players paging is 100% nonsense.  That's based on my own observations. 
    So how is it done?  It is not from standing afk with a pet or without. What are your observations.
  • Pawain said:
    The notion this is being triggered by players paging is 100% nonsense.  That's based on my own observations. 
    So how is it done?  It is not from standing afk with a pet or without. What are your observations.
    Carefully read my replies in this thread and the thread I linked to.

  • UrgeUrge Posts: 976
    Are you hinting at getting x drops per level then it basically shuts you down?
  • usernameusername Posts: 355
    edited November 2022
    In reading the last meet and greet notes, one of the few sensible replies was somebody saying they wouldn't tell you how the logic works.  Your bank won't tell you how the fraud detection logic works, when it goes awry when making a $2 purchase at a convenience store (but never triggers when making a multi thousand $ purchase).  The bank will turn off the fraud detection logic on your account in special case circumstances if you make enough noise.

    The notion this is being triggered by players paging is 100% nonsense.  That's based on my own observations. 
    I would tend to agree that is all automated. If anyone else remembers blackthorn dungeon before the entirety of lesser spawn was removed they implemented a system where if you're ""AFK"" you get teleported to a prison cell with tons of spawn. Probably just a slightly modification of that system for these ToTs.

    Now if that's automated, how are they going from that -> actual email AFK warnings, without any investigation or interruption of gameplay, the ones that lead to account action. Is that automated also? 

    No one (at least I'm not) asking for a direct statement on how it works or the intricacies of the system if it is automated. However, in your scenario, I'm pretty sure the bank will tell you that fraud is illegal, else the local laws of your area will tell you that fraud is illegal, and that's the biggest problem we've seen so far: there hasn't even been an announcement of a change of their own rules. Even such "hey be sure not to afk in the dungeon you've been warned!" because if these AFK flags lead to permanent account action and this change has not been announced, INNOCENT PLAYERS WILL BE ACTIONED. You can be AFK in the game as long as you are not performing actions/skills/etc. Players can AFK in the dungeon legitimately. For example: if I die, perhaps I AFK and make a phone call or use the bathroom knowing I have plenty of time to get my corpse back. A completely innocent player could get hit by this system and potentially lose their account? THIS NEEDS TO BE ANNOUNCED FOR THAT REASON ALONE.
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  • PawainPawain Posts: 7,114
    Pawain said:
    The notion this is being triggered by players paging is 100% nonsense.  That's based on my own observations. 
    So how is it done?  It is not from standing afk with a pet or without. What are your observations.
    Carefully read my replies in this thread and the thread I linked to.

    I did and I do the things you speak of. So I knew they were not correct.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 7,114
    edited November 2022
    This is ridiculous.  Who recalls every time they get a drop?
    There are players on LS that never leave the first floor.

    And only players in EC get time outs? Not true. 
    CC also gets a drop message.
    ForeverFun said:
    If you recall to a new floor in the dungeon after getting an artifact drop, you should generally be OK.  If you miss the notification text regarding getting a drop, and you're using EC, see this thread (link).

    It's quite possible the GM's don't even know how the (likely automated) logic works, that you describe.  Discussion of game mechanics/formulas/etc appears to be something the players have to work out for themselves, for the most part.

  • ForeverFunForeverFun Posts: 530
    edited November 2022
    Pawain said:
    And only players in EC get time outs? Not true. 
    CC also gets a drop message.
    ForeverFun said:
    If you recall to a new floor in the dungeon after getting an artifact drop, you should generally be OK.  If you miss the notification text regarding getting a drop, and you're using EC, see this thread (link).
    Dear oh dear, anyway, I've carefully read the sentence that references EC, and don't know how that is being equated to "only ... EC get time outs".  The artifact drop message scrolls by very quickly, easily overlooked (see also Yoshi comments re: vicious bite, nerve strike).  If people carefully read the link above, it should be pretty clear it's something possibly helpful for EC users.

    Pawain said:
    This is ridiculous.  Who recalls every time they get a drop?
    There are players on LS that never leave the first floor.
    Anybody is free to test and report back on the suggestions here.  I offer no warranty or guarantee.

    I can't speak to how much ground those LS players are covering on first floor, or how often they go outside, or what their drop rate may be, or whether they are getting flagged in any way.

    optimization tip:  4 runic atlas, each set to a different floor of the dungeon as the default recall point.  assign macros ctrl-1 to ctrl-4 to recall on each atlas.  you can now switch floors in 1.5 seconds with a single button press.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 7,114
    edited November 2022
    I can switch floors, I guess you do not read my guides for each dungeon, I put safe spots to mark before the dungeons begin, so players can make books and do this.  I have a player sitting outside to gate ghosts to the entry. 

    Some players are not "brave" enough to go beyond the first floor I guess.  If anyone that is a regular player on LS, they will talk in chat if they can not damage the Mobs.  We talk in Gen chat a lot.  Come during prime time 7C to 10C, chat is busy. And 5 others would repeat whatever someone says is causing issues trying to help them.

    So there are players who never leave a floor or recall out for an hour or more. The other day I was playing with another archer and we stayed on the second floor for a significant amount of time because the spawn was very quick, and they were not familiar with the third floor.  We both got drops and neither of us were affected by this trigger you think is in the game. After 20 mins I did get bored on the second floor so I did go to the third and fourth.  I can't play in the same spot for long, but it was a wonderful anomaly that the second floor was spawning so quickly, so I stayed as long as I could handle. 

    Tell me step by step what to do to make your theory trigger.  But spending 20 mins on a floor while getting drops does not trigger anything for me or others on LS.

    I am willing to try your theory if I have enough info to re create it.  I have melee, thrower, Ninja Tiger, Archer, Tamer, Plain Mage.  

    I can use any of those if I know what to do with what type toon and for how long.
  • Pawain said:

    Tell me step by step what to do to make your theory trigger.  But spending 20 mins on a floor while getting drops does not trigger anything for me or others on LS.

    If you aren't getting impacted by things covered in this thread, and you're happy with your results/drop rate, no action is required from you :)
  • Pawain said:

    Tell me step by step what to do to make your theory trigger.  But spending 20 mins on a floor while getting drops does not trigger anything for me or others on LS.

    If you aren't getting impacted by things covered in this thread, and you're happy with your results/drop rate, no action is required from you :)
    Oh he must defend the developers from evil doers 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 7,114
    edited November 2022
    Grimbeard said:
    Pawain said:

    Tell me step by step what to do to make your theory trigger.  But spending 20 mins on a floor while getting drops does not trigger anything for me or others on LS.

    If you aren't getting impacted by things covered in this thread, and you're happy with your results/drop rate, no action is required from you :)
    Oh he must defend the developers from evil doers 
    Or help legit players like Arnold to not get hit again.  The devs can defend themselves. They have accounts here.

    (Arnold better not be a Bot!  He tricked me if he is.)  :D
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 966
    No I am not a bot but I feel like one some days.
  • Pawain said:
    Grimbeard said:
    Pawain said:

    Tell me step by step what to do to make your theory trigger.  But spending 20 mins on a floor while getting drops does not trigger anything for me or others on LS.

    If you aren't getting impacted by things covered in this thread, and you're happy with your results/drop rate, no action is required from you :)
    Oh he must defend the developers from evil doers 
    Or help legit players like Arnold to not get hit again.  The devs can defend themselves. They have accounts here.

    (Arnold better not be a Bot!  He tricked me if he is.)  :D
     :D 
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 1,658
    I haven't been hit with the no damage penalty for this event and I've played ATL to start and recently Origin. I only ever have 1 account logged in doing the dungeon though and I don't hang around the people that have multiple characters following them (mainly because it's less chance I get to damage anything).

    I also play early (around now) when I'd assume GMs either are not on or are just logging on and based on my experience over the last week or so on Origin (ie not worth playing outside of luck statue effect) I've limited my play to just an hour or so a day. 

    @Arnold7 - What shard are you playing on? Also what time frame have you been hit with the penalty and how long do you typically play? I'm thinking maybe some of these timing things factor in to the algorithm because I can see how they might see your character has been online in the dungeon for X hours a day most days and that flags you so when you are around other suspicious activity it flags you too?
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 966
    I play on GL and mostly at night.  Have been hit both times at night when just a few of us were playing but both times when a group of players came through generating enough spawn for things to get wild.  Lots of targets congregated in a small group and everyone piles on.  Targeting is pretty much nonexistent so I use meteor swarm or chain lighting as those work with slayers, do a lot of damage to multiple targets, and the cursor just needs to be pointed at the mob.  Usually on for two or three hours.

    I usually play near the steps on the second floor and the area above the steps because there is more room to run in those areas.  I do play in the other areas of the dungeon when more players are present but was flagged both times in the area I usually play in.


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