Sampires and balance

My main is a somewhat off-meta sampire variant, and if there's one thing I'm tired of it's that "you fail to leech life" message. To me it just reads as "we don't know how to balance this build so go away!"

The issue seems pretty obvious, taking a build with the highest possible melee damage and allowing it to scale health recovery off of that damage results in something that's difficult to keep in check without resorting to kludges like the aforementioned "you fail to leech" routine. The solution would seem to be to decouple damage and healing in this context.

The build I play uses necromancy and bushido, but eschews chivalry in favor of spirit speak. Personally I just do this because I like being able to use my spells, and because I'm enough of a fan of verisimilitude to not want to play a glorious lord undead paladin.

This build deals meaningfully less damage than a standard sampire thanks to the lack of chivalry, but retains the high survivability thanks to the much greater life leech imparted by the curse weapon spell. With a proper weapon it leeches enough mana to make consistent use of specials, but can't just chain armor ignore on every hit forever. It can solo bosses but it takes somewhat more work, and gains some moderately nice side benefits like spirit speak healing and the ability to go to wraith form and spam wither.

Make it such that being in a necromancer form actively drains karma, or some other change structured to decouple leech-based healing from the highest possible damage output, and builds should fragment into necro/bushido life leechers versus chiv/bushido builds with higher damage. If it seems like there's less reason to play a chiv/bushido melee build as opposed to an archer, maybe give Chivalry a buff that excludes archery in some way.

I don't know if there's sufficient will to make such large changes to balance at this point, but I thought I would throw this out there.
  1. Do you like it when threads have a poll attached?9 votes
    1. Yes
      11.11%
    2. No
        0.00%
    3. Pork chop sammiches
      88.89%

Comments

  • My sampire with chiv build works great.  You cannot leech off paragons. So please do NOT tinker with it in any way.  It’s fine  I dont want my gameplay affected due to another player having issues with their build 

    I need the chiv spells and I don’t want this cocked up because of another build 

    I kill things fine. I leech fine. I enjoy the build

    i am not interested in your build and so not want it to negatively affect me because your build does not work somehow 

    you want SS use a necro mage 


  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 962
    edited November 2022
    Your poll does not have much to do with your discussion.  But to answer your question, some discussions merit polls and some do not.  Your discussion is informative.  You are not asking for opinions so I would not have attached a poll to it myself.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 7,075
    I would like polls if we had more posters here that answer them,  I like Pork Chop sammiches more.  Buckees makes good pulled pork sammiches and I can't pass up pork chop on a stick at a carnival setting.

    In deceit I rarely use my Chivalry for anything but EoO against the Rams or Swords.  My only Sampire also has Necro.  I like to heal.  I think they are done balancing builds, they compensate by adjusting the Mobs.

  • SethSeth Posts: 2,765
    I use Chivalry alot.

    Sacred journey everyday, remove curse if BO by skeletal mages or too much debuff, cure poison from poison ele, heal when fighting paragons, consecrate weapon for extra damage, Eoo vs Ram.

    I use life leech from weapon and Vampiric form. They work fine in most cases.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • SlissSliss Posts: 282
    You are right, the broken thing about the sampire is that it is able to leech health (and mana and stam) based on damage. And to decouple them as you suggest pretty much destroys the Sampire. PvM dexxing is OP even without leeching because they are able to heal at the same time as they do damage. A caster has to do one or the other. And they are trying to balance it without pissing off too many players. The balancing is all the "no-leech" creatures. This way samp can keep leeching from trash mobs where it does not matter, but for bosses, alternative strategies are required.
  • looploop Posts: 166
    Agree with the OP's sentiment. I don't really play a sampire, but I always thought it would be fine enough to just disallow mounts while in vampire form. This wouldn't require large mechanical changes and would be consistent with all other "form" spells. Sampires wouldn't be less "powerful" per se, but they would be more vulnerable.
  • PlayerSkillFTWPlayerSkillFTW Posts: 402
    edited November 2022

    The build I play uses necromancy and bushido, but eschews chivalry in favor of spirit speak. Personally I just do this because I like being able to use my spells, and because I'm enough of a fan of verisimilitude to not want to play a glorious lord undead paladin.

    This build deals meaningfully less damage than a standard sampire thanks to the lack of chivalry, but retains the high survivability thanks to the much greater life leech imparted by the curse weapon spell. With a proper weapon it leeches enough mana to make consistent use of specials, but can't just chain armor ignore on every hit forever. It can solo bosses but it takes somewhat more work, and gains some moderately nice side benefits like spirit speak healing and the ability to go to wraith form and spam wither.

    For most mobs with Slayers, Chiv doesn't add much damage. The one spawn that benefits the most from Chiv, is the first 2 levels of the Khal Ankur champ spawn with the Skelementals, which are immune to all but 1 Element (which element that is depends on their color), so Con Wep is godly there. Against non-Slayer foes, 120 Chiv can add up to +97% to the damage calculations (which cap at 300%).

    My Sampires have both Chiv and SS, just no Anatomy. 120 Swords/GM Tact/GM Necro/GM SS/GM Bush/GM Chiv/GM Resist or Parry (i soulstone between these). My Sampires still dish out enough damage to chain specials non-stop, and dish out a ton of damage when stacking Corpse Skin+Onslaught and DS spam. Between Vamp Form+Curse Weapon, i have 70% Hit Life Drain, which gives me 3.5x the amount of self healing of a regular Sampire, meaning i'm incredibly difficult to kill. I can take a 120 damage hit from Chief Paroxysmus, and laugh it off as i proceed to regain my entire 150 Health bar in a single 300+ damage Double Strike on him. If i need to, i can step away from a boss and use the combination of Confidence+Spirit Speak for a big heal.

    The fact that a Sampire's self-healing is linked to it's damage output, is what makes Swordsmanship so great for Sampires, since the Onslaught mastery can increase their damage output (and therefore self healing), particularly with Double Strike. For bandy Healing Warriors though, Macing is particularly good with it's Stagger mastery, which can make the opponent swing so slow that you're able to 4 sec bandy heal between their swings, allowing bandy Healing to keep up with even big hitters.
    My Macer/Paladin with bandy healing frequently takes on and solos Treasures Paragons that make Swords Sampires run screaming for their mother. I love how the "Null Life" mechanic of the Treasures Paragons has breathed life back into the bandy healing Warriors.

    Sliss said:
    PvM dexxing is OP even without leeching because they are able to heal at the same time as they do damage. A caster has to do one or the other.
    I remember a time shortly after AoS, when you were able to leech life with spells while in Vampire Form or with Curse Weapon. You were basically unkillable while spamming Wither in a pack then. They nerfed it, but for awhile there was still a bug where you could life leech with spells during Curse Weapon. They also nerfed Vampire Form for Necro/Mages by making the Garlic damage apply even when using 100% LRC, Arcane Clothing, or Scrolls.
    I've suggested before that they allow the Vampire Bat familiar from Necromancy to grant 10% Life Drain, even to spellcasting.


  •  I love how the "Null Life" mechanic of the Treasures Paragons has breathed life back into the bandy healing Warriors.

    I ditched my sampire after 30 min of the very first treasures and dusted off my sword & board chiv dexxer with healing and never have looked back. Longsword for when I can get paragon alone, whip when I cannot. I have no problems getting more drops than I can use. A lot more. I am sure many will call me or think I am a fool, but I enjoy this template for treasures events the most. And that is what matters the most - not the "meta" opinion.
  • PlayerSkillFTWPlayerSkillFTW Posts: 402
    edited November 2022

     I love how the "Null Life" mechanic of the Treasures Paragons has breathed life back into the bandy healing Warriors.

    I ditched my sampire after 30 min of the very first treasures and dusted off my sword & board chiv dexxer with healing and never have looked back. Longsword for when I can get paragon alone, whip when I cannot. I have no problems getting more drops than I can use. A lot more. I am sure many will call me or think I am a fool, but I enjoy this template for treasures events the most. And that is what matters the most - not the "meta" opinion.

    Yep, prior to the Treasures events with the "Null Life" Paragons, bandy healing (particularly bandy cross healing) was basically an ancient lost art. To learn it people had to traverse up the 7,000 Steps of the Throat of the World mountain to meditate and study under ancient Greybeards at High Hrothgar. Fortunately, a few of us Greybeards are still around to teach it.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,381

     I love how the "Null Life" mechanic of the Treasures Paragons has breathed life back into the bandy healing Warriors.

    I ditched my sampire after 30 min of the very first treasures and dusted off my sword & board chiv dexxer with healing and never have looked back. Longsword for when I can get paragon alone, whip when I cannot. I have no problems getting more drops than I can use. A lot more. I am sure many will call me or think I am a fool, but I enjoy this template for treasures events the most. And that is what matters the most - not the "meta" opinion.
    @Estel_Randir

    Why Longsword and Whip, if I may ask, rather then a Double Axe and Bladed Staff or Radiant Scimitar as I see that most Warriors with swordsmanship use ?
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 1,645
    popps said:

     I love how the "Null Life" mechanic of the Treasures Paragons has breathed life back into the bandy healing Warriors.

    I ditched my sampire after 30 min of the very first treasures and dusted off my sword & board chiv dexxer with healing and never have looked back. Longsword for when I can get paragon alone, whip when I cannot. I have no problems getting more drops than I can use. A lot more. I am sure many will call me or think I am a fool, but I enjoy this template for treasures events the most. And that is what matters the most - not the "meta" opinion.
    @ Estel_Randir

    Why Longsword and Whip, if I may ask, rather then a Double Axe and Bladed Staff or Radiant Scimitar as I see that most Warriors with swordsmanship use ?
    Longsword/Whip are one handed weapons so you can keep your shield on. Bushido is the reason most sampires (the S is for samurai) run doube axe or bladed staff (or any 2 handed weapon)
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,765
    edited November 2022
    Sampire is basically Bushido and Vampiric embrace. The rest of the skills are up to individual to customize.

    Some have 80 to 120 parry chivalry. 
    Some have resist.
    Some have 60 to 120 parry. 
    Some have spirit speak same as u.
    Some swap necro for healing depending on the fight.

    It isn't really a fixed template and I have changed mine more than 13 times over the years and tried different combinations. Currently I convert it to ABC archer, or healing warrior depending on who or what I fight. I don't use the same template for Osiredon, Shadowguard, Treasures or EM event.

    There are alot of old posts where I learnt about sampire from many players at stratics, but I am not sure if they are still available. 

    Sampire can only leech so little without Slayer or double or triple damages in a crowded situation. EOO and honor are good when alone with one or one type, which is not always easy to find.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • Seth said:
    Sampire is basically Bushido and Vampiric embrace. The rest of the skills are up to individual to customize.

    Some have 80 to 120 parry chivalry. 
    Some have resist.
    Some have 60 to 120 parry. 
    Some have spirit speak same as u.
    Some swap necro for healing depending on the fight.

    It isn't really a fixed template and I have changed mine more than 13 times over the years and tried different combinations. Currently I convert it to ABC archer, or healing warrior depending on who or what I fight. I don't use the same template for Osiredon, Shadowguard, Treasures or EM event.

    There are alot of old posts where I learnt about sampire from many players at stratics, but I am not sure if they are still available. 

    Sampire can only leech so little without Slayer or double or triple damages in a crowded situation. EOO and honor are good when alone with one or one type, which is not always easy to find.
    No one wants vampiric embrace nerfed we just want it scaled off spirit speak 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 7,075
    edited November 2022
    Who is WE?

    My only Sampire has SS. No reason to change a skill for a we that does not exist.
  • How many votes will make it a we?  Or does only your opinion matter? 
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,765
    edited November 2022
    Grimbeard said:
    Seth said:
    Sampire is basically Bushido and Vampiric embrace. The rest of the skills are up to individual to customize.

    Some have 80 to 120 parry chivalry. 
    Some have resist.
    Some have 60 to 120 parry. 
    Some have spirit speak same as u.
    Some swap necro for healing depending on the fight.

    It isn't really a fixed template and I have changed mine more than 13 times over the years and tried different combinations. Currently I convert it to ABC archer, or healing warrior depending on who or what I fight. I don't use the same template for Osiredon, Shadowguard, Treasures or EM event.

    There are alot of old posts where I learnt about sampire from many players at stratics, but I am not sure if they are still available. 

    Sampire can only leech so little without Slayer or double or triple damages in a crowded situation. EOO and honor are good when alone with one or one type, which is not always easy to find.
    No one wants vampiric embrace nerfed we just want it scaled off spirit speak 
    Then they should turn off life leech block for all new events.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,765
    edited November 2022
    deleted
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 2,163
    edited November 2022
    “They could’ve just introduced some mobs with mysticism (that purge magic) to these events”
    Posts on this account have been pre filtered from personal comment or opinion in an effort to suppress conservative views in order to protect the reader.
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 2,163
    edited November 2022
    "actually something has come to me, this probably deserves a thread of it's own.

    There is often some confusion about how much life leech (and mana leech) you can imbue/reforge on weapons. I often see in trade forums etc. And this is because it depends on the base swing speed of the weapon, and also.. if the weapon iteself has the swing speed property on it. The faster the swing speed the less life/mana leech you can imbue/reforge. From this you can reasonably concur that the developers intended for a faster swing to yield a lower life/mana leech...

    this is currently bypassed by the fact that swing speed can be increased from using swing speed increase from other item slots, and simply increasing stamina.

    Perhaps instead, life leech (and mana leech) should instead be just a set property
    Hit Life Leech, no percentage, just have set intensity rating of 110

    Then the amount of life/mana leeched should be based on the actual swing speed of the wielder.

    This would not only balance the strength of the property, but would also somewhat simplify game mechanics.

    "

    Posts on this account have been pre filtered from personal comment or opinion in an effort to suppress conservative views in order to protect the reader.
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,765
    edited November 2022

    Technically speaking sampires life leech rely more on VE which is fixed 20% of damage. This is the design intent for sampire.

    All other templates can "cheat" by simply carry a leech weapon but it's effectiveness is random. 100% Hit Life leech is only 0.3 x damage and the actual leech is random from 0 to max. In the worst case u can leech say 10% of the max for 5 straight hits and die because it is not enough to heal.

    Furthermore, all leeches rely on actual damage, which in turn relies on specials like AI and Double strike, which needs mana.

    Just spam mana drain and the sampire would leech peanuts even with a slayer.

    Mana drain, blood oath, disarm, nausea, dismount, or simply heavy spell attacks. Don't need anything new to kill a sampire.

    As I said before again and again, it's so easy to beat the sampire without blocking leech or changing the underlying mechanism.





    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • Seth said:

    Technically speaking sampires life leech rely more on VE which is fixed 20% of damage. This is the design intent for sampire.

    All other templates can "cheat" by simply carry a leech weapon but it's effectiveness is random. 100% Hit Life leech is only 0.3 x damage and the actual leech is random from 0 to max. In the worst case u can leech say 10% of the max for 5 straight hits and die because it is not enough to heal.

    Furthermore, all leeches rely on actual damage, which in turn relies on specials like AI and Double strike, which needs mana.

    Just spam mana drain and the sampire would leech peanuts even with a slayer.

    Mana drain, blood oath, disarm, nausea, dismount, or simply heavy spell attacks. Don't need anything new to kill a sampire.

    As I said before again and again, it's so easy to beat the sampire without blocking leech or changing the underlying mechanism.





    Imagine if tamers could drop lore or mage eval  or bards music...if you want to be a sampire adapt but the playing field should be even
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,765
    edited November 2022
    Grimbeard said:
    Seth said:

    Technically speaking sampires life leech rely more on VE which is fixed 20% of damage. This is the design intent for sampire.

    All other templates can "cheat" by simply carry a leech weapon but it's effectiveness is random. 100% Hit Life leech is only 0.3 x damage and the actual leech is random from 0 to max. In the worst case u can leech say 10% of the max for 5 straight hits and die because it is not enough to heal.

    Furthermore, all leeches rely on actual damage, which in turn relies on specials like AI and Double strike, which needs mana.

    Just spam mana drain and the sampire would leech peanuts even with a slayer.

    Mana drain, blood oath, disarm, nausea, dismount, or simply heavy spell attacks. Don't need anything new to kill a sampire.

    As I said before again and again, it's so easy to beat the sampire without blocking leech or changing the underlying mechanism.





    Imagine if tamers could drop lore or mage eval  or bards music...if you want to be a sampire adapt but the playing field should be even
    If mages, tamers and bards could work harder by standing next to target to fight and grind down their suit instead of standing far away and complaining why sampires can tank. I play all templates by the way. 

    I have 3 full bards
    3 tamers
    4 crafters including imbuing 
    for 3 accounts.

    But I only have 2 sampires, because they are the hardest and most expensive to equip and maintain, and the fight front line hand-to-hand combat unlike the other back benchers.

    We know what are Tanks/Melee or Ranged Attacks or Support. My tamers are the laziest lot. All kill oh oh oh why sampires can kill more than my pet while I eat poppppp corns at the back and watch Netflix.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • RinerRiner Posts: 279
    First changing the fundamental way a template works is a bigger decision then adding mobs which cause a different approach. It also has consequences which take a great deal of testing before simply rolling out the change. There are many things which the game mechanics allow one template to do others can not. For example a tamer can spam heals from spells and bandages on there pet effectively without Int Evaul, maybe that should be changed. Or or or.. The idea that you personally don’t like the mechanic isn’t reason to change it. You also forget people have invested both time and gold building their sampire but could play effectively with another template without the time or gold investment. 
         Finally, using the word “we” doesn’t make you the representative of a group of like minded group.And I’m sure anyone who reads it sees it as a weak attempt to strengthen your point.
  • GrimbeardGrimbeard Posts: 310
    edited November 2022
    Riner said:
    First changing the fundamental way a template works is a bigger decision then adding mobs which cause a different approach. It also has consequences which take a great deal of testing before simply rolling out the change. There are many things which the game mechanics allow one template to do others can not. For example a tamer can spam heals from spells and bandages on there pet effectively without Int Evaul, maybe that should be changed. Or or or.. The idea that you personally don’t like the mechanic isn’t reason to change it. You also forget people have invested both time and gold building their sampire but could play effectively with another template without the time or gold investment. 
         Finally, using the word “we” doesn’t make you the representative of a group of like minded group.And I’m sure anyone who reads it sees it as a weak attempt to strengthen your point.



    Just because something works and has for a long time doesn't make it not broken 
  • It would make sense though for all Undead to possess Corrupted Life (life leech/drain attempts against them damage you instead). All Automatons (Golems, Clockwork mobs, Kotl Automatons, Vollems, etc) should possess Null Life (life leech/drain attempts don't function against them, but neither do they damage you) as well.
    Maybe something for New Legacy to experiment with.
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