Respawn rate and monster density

Seth

We didn't have an issue with spawn rate in the first Deceit treasures, did we? I don't recall that being an issue. 

Mit

Because there were lich lords on every level last time... Them as paragons with a paragon poison elemental or two.. Dang

Estel_Randir

@Kyronix I think you all are looking at the spawn rate being based solely based on # of players is only half the picture. I think you need to start incorporating overall kill rate into the equation. During off hours on many servers it is very easy to kill the entire floor (minus a mob or two here and there) consistently with 2 people and then they are running around looking for more waiting on respawn. Even solo it is possible in some hours to kill enough 2nd floor mobs to have to skip to other floors to wait for 2nd to respawn. I am not asking for instant respawns, but an adjustable respawn timer (with limits) based on both player density & how fast say 75% of the mobs per floor are killed.

Seth

@Kyronix

Don't worry about us, each vet player can solo kill 480 low to high end plus 1 boss in an hour. Based on champspawn.

For 10 characters, the dungeon should generate 4,800 creatures an hour. For Atlantic, the dungeon should be swarmed...

keven2002

Estel_Randir said:

@ Kyronix I think you all are looking at the spawn rate being based solely based on # of players is only half the picture. I think you need to start incorporating overall kill rate into the equation. During off hours on many servers it is very easy to kill the entire floor (minus a mob or two here and there) consistently with 2 people and then they are running around looking for more waiting on respawn. Even solo it is possible in some hours to kill enough 2nd floor mobs to have to skip to other floors to wait for 2nd to respawn. I am not asking for instant respawns, but an adjustable respawn timer (with limits) based on both player density & how fast say 75% of the mobs per floor are killed.

I agree. The spawn rate is too slow from what I've seen (which leads to low density). I'll go clear 20-30 things that have piled up on floor 1 and the result is maybe a couple things will spawn immediately but it takes a while to accumulate another swarm of monsters (which may be due to it going to a different floor?). 

Given that the majority of the Deceit spawn consists of zombies/skeletons/spectre/mummies/lich (all have less than 200hp) most of them can be quickly killed by just a single player while also taking minimal damage. It's not like Destard where we are talking about dragons/greater dragons/weald protectors/etc. 

It's not working right when a single person has to run through the entire dungeon when it's empty from the first floor to the last to find spawn to kill. 

Radst

You all need to stop trying to reason with this DevGuy. He is impossible to reason with. He has made up his mind.

BTW,

1. Nowadays a patch takes only ONE weeks from TC to release. That's step1 of how things go wrong. Once released, he doesn't give a fk. We've seen how his attitude is: I already gave you chance to give feedback.

2. Does Izumo even need to be with Origin in any first release? How do Devs collect feedback from Japanese players? They dont really have presence in these English forums. So you might as well replace Izumo with another mid populated US shard for test.

Arnold7

Other than being afk flagged twice no real complaints here.  My mage can handle this one and get drops pretty regularly.  Mostly he plays the easier areas on the first floor and first half of the second floor.  Generally he is most productive on the second floor.  If it’s fairly clear of para rams and poison elementals he will use spells that can kill two to four of the lower end stuff at once in the area where the red guys spawn. He uses macros to quickly change to the appropriate slayer book.

Other dungeons just had to much big stuff that could kill him before he could cast a single spell, and late at night more king sized paras than players.  Like this one much better if spawn is light he just runs around more.

Am hoping they have figured out the afk application now so it no longer targets innocent players.

keven2002

keven2002 said:

Update based on my experience over the other day.Sorry in advance for the length of the post but I wanted to kind of give my play by play experience in Deceit recently. If you want the cliff notes; it wasn't good and I still believe the spawn density needs increased.

I was on Origin and there was only another 1-2 people in the dungeon but they seemed stagnant (or maybe just camping) because every time I would come back around that small room on level 1 they were still there.so I kind of had the dungeon to myself for virtually the entire hour of my luck statue hit. 

For maybe the first 10-15min I would start at the entrance and work my way down to level 4 and back up (running where I could and recalling into locked places like the lava pits). I started by running down and back up but that made the spawn seem incredibly sparse because once I cleared level 4 crypts (my last spot on level 4) and worked my way back there was virtually no spawn on level 4 as I just cleared it (or level 1 entrance). Felt like even first parts of the next level I would go back to were kind of light.

So the next 15-20min I would start at the entrance, work my way down to level 4 crypts and then recall back to the start. It did seem like there was more piles of mobs in the same places (entrance hallway / jail cells / stairs on level 2 / level 2 locked room / level 3 back room and lich lab / etc) BUT it was still very sparse in between those spots. IE running from the level 1 fountain room over to the jail cells and then down to level 2 (maybe 5 monsters the entire way each way?). I still felt like I was wasting time "searching" for spawn all over... example: I'd run to that nook where Neira spawns in Fel and there might be a total of 4 things to kill. Wasn't worth going down there for just 4 monsters.

The next 20min(ish) I tried to recall around to those "hot spots" hoping that I'd recall into a mass of things to kill. It was hit or miss with some spots being pretty good (7-10 things immediately on screen) and some spots lacking spawn (maybe 3-5 things total in the area). Not really sure if I got more drops doing this or not (was more focused on moving from place to place) but it felt like it (maybe?). The downside to this (using CC) is that it was tedious to open my rune book every 20-40seconds after clearing an area about a screen (or 3) wide to recall to the next spot by selecting it in the book. 

The last 10-15min someone else joined the dungeon so I'd recall in and see that they probably had just hit that spot (all blue corpses) so then I'd try to recall ahead of them to hit the spawn before they did. Mixed success doing that as sometimes I'd leap frog them but other times they would leapfrog me. This kind of brought me back to just running from 1 spot to another trying to kill all the spawn in between the next area since the other person was just recalling (which there wasn't a lot of spawn in the hallways). 

Total drops = 21 of non-stop focused playing for 65minutes with the dungeon basically all to myself for 45min(ish) and having a luck statue rub.

I played for another 30minutes with no luck statue and minimal luck on suit and I ended up with 5 drops (not sure if my first drop was partially due to my previous "luck hour" because I got a drop relatively quick into that 30min). I was planning on doing a full hour so I could do a side by side comparison but a third Sampire came around the 30min mark and honestly I had enough at that point. The juice wasn't worth the squeeze.

Final thoughts: the current spawn density of Origin when there is 1-5 players is atrocious and not even close to being a challenge. It's hard for me to believe that if any developer actually played on these low population servers that they would think the current spawn density is fun/challenging/acceptable. The fact that a single player can run through the virtually the entire dungeon when nobody else is there AND still not find groups of monsters consistently should tell you all you need to know. The entire dungeon spawn should not be able to be easily controlled by a single player. I have had tougher times fighting level 1 champ spawns (undead or imps) given the sheer number of things to kill and being overpowered with numbers.

I think at the end of the day what it comes down to is that by increasing the spawn density, it would inevitably increase the drop rate which would allow players to acquire things quicker. which is pretty obvious something that the Devs do not want for us. Ultimately this really only hurts these small shards because they are the ones that will need to grind the most, simply because there just aren't enough players. Given the lack of spawn density on Origin during non-luck hours I doubt I will play outside my luck window because it just isn't worth it. 

Was able to hop in today for my luck hour and had the dungeon to myself about 45min (first 10min someone was there and last 5min someone else came). My first run I just ran from top to bottom to see how much spawn was around. Started off pretty good with level 2 having a "swath" of stuff to kill in the locked room and in the bone knight area. I made my way to level 3 where I saw another person about half way to level 4 (I think they were only in Deceit for the first 10min I was there); not much to kill at all from where I saw that person to level 4 and even level 4 was kind of bare. 

After that first run, I stuck to strictly recalling around to the "hot spots" where I've noticed spawn tends to collect. I'd clear these hot spots and surrounding areas and then recall to the next spot. Even when I was the only person in the dungeon, the "swaths" I'd recall into seemed pretty light and few and far between. I'd guess that I recalled into maybe 5 or 6 spots in the hour that had 10+ monsters on the screen for me to kill but most of the time it was maybe 4-9 things which all died within 2 seconds. I felt like I would spend more time opening my runebook and picking the next recall spot than actually killing the monsters in the room. 

Side note - I did run a full level sometimes just to see if I was maybe missing large groups in the hallways aside from like the BoneKnight hallway those were just 1-3 monsters there wandering. I also checked that nook where Neira spawns a few times and only 3-4 things ever collected there. I also was fighting rams out of boredom which the spawn was so light that whenever I was disarmed; I'd just walk 5-6 tiles away and wait to re-equip my weapon to kill the rams (the other spawn was already dead after a couple swings with nothing new spawning). So boring.

I think it needs repeated that 1 player should not have to spend most of their time bouncing around to every single level searching for spawn to kill; there should be more than enough even on a single level for me to kill and respawn by the time I make it back from the end. On Origin it seriously feels like Deceit's spawn is maybe like slightly "bumped up" from the normal everyday non-Treasures spawn. Please make it challenging/fun by increasing the spawn rate. 

Pawain

Dynamic Dungeon means more players more spawn. I was on Atlantic the other night there were lots of players, drops falling like rain. A player could stay in one screen and be constantly killing stuff. 

 Drops are selling for 1M Per because they are getting them in bulk. SSI epps 90M.

1 player in the dungeon, not much spawn. Call in chat for others to come play. 

I read somewhere that UO was designed as a multiplayer game.

Seth

Too much bugs, so old players are angry and won't return. In the meantime, make the few of us left on low pop happy by increasing base spawn rate.

The players will also "spawn" less if there isn't much fun in boring dungeon. I feel sleepy just thinking about going to Deceit. 

Pawain

I cant think of any games I play that I don't like.  Why do you play a game you don't like? Yellowstone new season soon, you should try watching that while not liking it since that is what the kids do now I guess.

Seth

Pawain said:

I cant think of any games I play that I don't like.  Why do you play a game you don't like? Yellowstone new season soon, you should try watching that while not liking it since that is what the kids do now I guess.

I didn't say I don't like this game. I am saying this event needs more spawn to attract players. 

You can love football game but you can still dislike any particular match where teams performed like crap. This is being honest and less of a hypocrite that keep screaming all is OK. We are all vets who played for 25 years we know when we mean when spawn is low and this is not our first Treasure event.

Pawain

Then do like Keven did to get the Atlantic spawn increased.  Tell Kyronix specifically when you think the spawn needs improving so he can get online and see you running around and see the spawn for himself. Just random posts telling him what he does for a living is boring you is not a way to get changes.

Right now lots of players in Atlantic Deceit, lots of spawn all over the place.  Some nice player is gating to the hall on 1 that leads to 2.  

Atlantic is not great at killing Paragons tho, Many are just left so they can kill the massive amount of the rest.

Seth said:

Pawain said:

I cant think of any games I play that I don't like.  Why do you play a game you don't like? Yellowstone new season soon, you should try watching that while not liking it since that is what the kids do now I guess.

I didn't say I don't like this game. I am saying this event needs more spawn to attract players. 

You can love football game but you can still dislike any particular match where teams performed like crap. This is being honest and less of a hypocrite that keep screaming all is OK. We are all vets who played for 25 years we know when we mean when spawn is low and this is not our first Treasure event.

Seth

Pawain said:

Then do like Keven did to get the Atlantic spawn increased.  Tell Kyronix specifically when you think the spawn needs improving so he can get online and see you running around and see the spawn for himself. Just random posts telling him what he does for a living is boring you is not a way to get changes.

Right now lots of players in Atlantic Deceit, lots of spawn all over the place.  Some nice player is gating to the hall on 1 that leads to 2.  

Atlantic is not great at killing Paragons tho, Many are just left so they can kill the massive amount of the rest.

Seth said:

Pawain said:

I cant think of any games I play that I don't like.  Why do you play a game you don't like? Yellowstone new season soon, you should try watching that while not liking it since that is what the kids do now I guess.

I didn't say I don't like this game. I am saying this event needs more spawn to attract players. 

You can love football game but you can still dislike any particular match where teams performed like crap. This is being honest and less of a hypocrite that keep screaming all is OK. We are all vets who played for 25 years we know when we mean when spawn is low and this is not our first Treasure event.

I am referring low pop shards, not Atlantic. And rewards are shard bound, it won't affect anyone.

@Kyronix, please double the spawn density and respawn rate. So that we can test and feedback. Thanks.

ForeverFun

More spawn would be welcome.

You can vary it a bit day-to-day, to get feedback, too.

Let us use valor, say on the artifact trader, to dial up the spawn.

Add ancient liches into the mix.

Add Juo'nar into the mix, including possible paragon version of juo'nar.

Lots of options to drive the action up.

Estel_Randir

ForeverFun said:

Add Juo'nar into the mix, including possible paragon version of juo'nar.

In another mmo I played they also had an event every halloween similar to the treasures event. Part of the event was that after a certain number of turn ins, a boss instance would open up. It was pretty challenging but could still be done in off hours. You got a special drop to use for certain turn in items exclusive to that turn in.

I think it might be fun to have the treasures events & the champion spawns we sometimes have with them (that are seperate events) tied together like in the other mmo. After a certain number of event item turn ins, a special moongate would open at the entrance and you get to fight the boss that the treasures event is themed on. It would need to be pretty challenging though given how well geared players are now. Not sure how best to handle the reward.

Seth

Estel_Randir said:

ForeverFun said:

Add Juo'nar into the mix, including possible paragon version of juo'nar.

In another mmo I played they also had an event every halloween similar to the treasures event. Part of the event was that after a certain number of turn ins, a boss instance would open up. It was pretty challenging but could still be done in off hours. You got a special drop to use for certain turn in items exclusive to that turn in.

I think it might be fun to have the treasures events & the champion spawns we sometimes have with them (that are seperate events) tied together like in the other mmo. After a certain number of event item turn ins, a special moongate would open at the entrance and you get to fight the boss that the treasures event is themed on. It would need to be pretty challenging though given how well geared players are now. Not sure how best to handle the reward.

I like the boss idea but hope it's not anti life leech for low pop shard. Maybe it shohld spawn anywhere in Deceit so we will have to hunt for it.

keven2002

I don't think we need to over complicate it.

It's simple, low pop shards like Origin just need the respawn increased. Make the rate more than it is now but less than ATL. Do that over a weekend and see how it turns out. If a bunch of people come here and say "OMG I can't even get past the entrance to the dungeon" then it's too much; if they say "still too easy, I thought you were going to challenge us?" then it needs bumped up a little more.

@Kyronix - Asking again for you to bump up the spawn a bit (specifically Origin but I'm sure others have other shards they'd suggest) over the weekend and see the results. It should be proof that a bump to the respawn is needed when Larisa/Victim of Siege/Estel and others are all asking for a spawn bump (even Allen wants more spawn on LS which has more spawn than Origin). Worst case scenario if it's too much then just scale it back a bit; not sure why that would be a problem.

I would think that having almost every single person (except Arnold who only using a mage - not a sampire which can kill much faster) request a spawn bump would be enough to get one but if you'd like proof that it's needed I'd be able to hop today to show you how quickly one person can run through the spawn.

Grimbeard

All done on Origin just focusing on Pacific and Cats and while the spawn slightly higher due to more people in no way is it thick enough to make it worth using a potion..

keven2002

I haven't played much on Origin myself given how boring it becomes trying to run around to find spawn. I did log int the other day around 5pm EST to see what appeared to be more spawn in the dungeon but as soon as I went in and did a single pass (level 1-4) it seemed like it went back down to the usual levels. Nobody else was there at the time so I'm guessing maybe more people were there earlier and then left so the spawn was a bit more dense? 

I logged on the next day in the morning (my usual time to play) and it was the same light spawn and the same 1 or 2 ppl I usually see there. 

Does anyone playing low pop shards like Origin/Sonoma/Legends/etc actually think that Deceit is too difficult? As in, you aren't even bothering to play because the dungeon is just too hard / spawn dense for you to even play? If so, please share your template.

The only thing I can think is that there are some people that think the dungeon is too hard; otherwise I'm not sure why the Devs are ignoring the multiple requests from multiple people to add spawn to make things more challenging (less boring). 

Arnold7

Think they have it about right on the moderate population shards and level of difficulty appears about right for most players.  Remember at this point in the last event  the other dungeon was pretty much abandoned.

keven2002

Arnold7 said:

Think they have it about right on the moderate population shards and level of difficulty appears about right for most players.  Remember at this point in the last event  the other dungeon was pretty much abandoned.

I'd argue the same thing is happening now outside of the main shards. Origin never has more than 3-4 people from what I've seen and it's the same 3-4 people I always see. I haven't bothered hopping around to other lower pop shards but would imagine it's likely the same.

What makes Deceit (the way it is now for Origin with a low density) difficult? You are the only person I've seen to say anything besides "add more spawn" but you also play a mage I believe (without spellweaving)? This isn't meant to be combative or a shot at you but that's probably one of the most inefficient builds to use for these events so if a single target/meteor swarm player is saying that the difficulty is "good" then that probably means it's actually pretty easy given how quickly a warrior / tamer / spellweaver / mystic / necro / etc can all plow throw the low level spawn very fast with their AOE spells/weapons.

Arnold7

Yes,  mages do not melee that well.  Archers and fighters can kill stuff a lot faster than I can and don’t have to run for their lives nearly as much as i do.  But mages are good support characters and can hit really hard from a distance.  With slayers I can one shot everything that’s not a para except for the rams and the executioners.  I precast spells a lot so I can hit things quickly.  I’ve always liked mages so it’s what I like to play and it can be fairly effective at these group type events but it has to be played a lot differently than the others.  

keven2002

Arnold7 said:

Yes,  mages do not melee that well.  Archers and fighters can kill stuff a lot faster than I can and don’t have to run for their lives nearly as much as i do.  But mages are good support characters and can hit really hard from a distance.  With slayers I can one shot everything that’s not a para except for the rams and the executioners.  I precast spells a lot so I can hit things quickly.  I’ve always liked mages so it’s what I like to play and it can be fairly effective at these group type events but it has to be played a lot differently than the others.  

Yep I get that 100% and glad that you play something you like.  

That said, the point remains that if someone using something that could be considered a "support" template thinks the difficulty is "just right" then the reality of the situation is that it's probably in all honesty too easy for any template that is more efficient...which in this case is a bunch. 

That also brings me back to my original question; does anyone actually think the way the spawn is currently on their shard too difficult? 

Seems like the Devs are having a hard time from stopping the pendulum swing too far in the opposite direction after making Destard too hard for people. They are failing to realize that the hardest thing in Deceit is probably around the medium range for Destard (thinking somewhere around regular dragon level). 

Grimbeard

My sdi mage just using meteor swarm canbkillca pack farther and faster