Guaranteed Gain System times Table : where does it come from ?

poppspopps Posts: 3,300
edited September 21 in General Discussions

As we know, at the basis of the functioning of the Guaranteed Gain System

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/technical/skill-gain-systems/
https://www.uoguide.com/Guaranteed_Gain_System

is a "Time", lapsed which, depending on the skill level being used as well as the total skill points of the character using that skill, a "Gain" is Guaranteed.

And there is a Table, the same Table at both the 2 Links reported above, and which I am linking here below for the reader's conveniency, which "supposedly " indicates what the required Times that have to lapse, depending on the level of the skill being used as well as of the total of all skills that the character has, in order for a character to then get a "Guaranteed" skill Gain...

Now, since I have not been finding myself in agreement with the times indicated by that Table, I have been doing quite some testing in various skill training conditions....

That is, I have been using the Ball of Knowledge and been training at various configurations "Challenging", "Optimal", "Easy" and even "Very Easy" as well as at various times shortly past those indicated by the Table (for quickness of testing I have been using the < 350 total skill points first column of the Table), a few hours past the time indicated by the column and several hours, even double that indicated time, past the shown times indicated as necessary to get a gain.

Well, to my impression, after spending quite a good deal of testing on this one issue, the times indicated by that Table are quite unreliable and not triggering a "Guaranteed" Gain...

For example, I found that even under an "Optimal" condition from the Ball of Knowledge, past the times indicated in the 1st column depending on the level of the skill being trained, a Gain was far from being guaranteed and this, not just shortly past those times but also, well after 1 or 2+ hours past them.

YET, has been my finding, if the time GREATLY increases over those shown in that Table, by like 50% more if not 100% (double) more, even under a Ball of Knowledge "Very Easy" condition which should hardly provide a Gain, the 1st or 2nd skill check almost always guaranteed the skill Gain.

So, I came to the conclusion that, with due time lapsed since the very last  skill Gain, indeed, another skill Gain does come as "Guaranteed" yet, absolutely NOT past those times shown in this Table but after a LOT MORE time has lapsed as that shown in this Table....

Bottom line is, to my opinion, that the times shown in this Table are totally, and quite some, OFF.

So, I would like to know what the source of this Table is, if anyone knows it....

The times shown come straight from the Developers ?
Are they from some player who, time back, figured them out somehow ?

Does anyone know it ?

I have been trying to find myself, in my testing, some more reliable times but, because of the unpredictability of the RNG, I never know, when I get a gain, whether it is because of a Lucky RNG roll, or because the code measured the "set" time as lapsed and thus yielded the Gain....

Personally, considering that this in-game mechanics is referred to as "Guaranteed" Gain System, I think that the Developers should release to players what the actual, correct Table of the times that need to lapse since the last Gain to get a "Guaranteed" new Gain, are, and not leave around, even on the Official UO Wiki, a Table with Times which, at least to my finding, are not accurante and not reliable.

Anyway, as of now, just make note that, at least to my findings, those times are NOT accurate and certainly not a "guarantee" for a gain but, when increased by 50% to 100%, THEN, they can yield a Guaranteed Gain....

For example, < 350 total skill points and at a level of the skill being worked on being 115.0-119.9 (the table indicates 120.0 but, obviously, at 120.0 one would no longer get a gain...), the table indicates the time necessary to lapse as 10.3 hours.

To my finding, shortly past that time, and even after several hours past it, a Gain is hardly guaranteed at all, even under a Ball of Knowledge "Optimal" condition, YET, if one trains the skill again like 15+ hours past last gain, THEN, even with a Ball of Knowledge indicating "Very Easy", a Gain is "almost" Guaranteed to come within the first skill checks....

By DOUBLING that indicated time, that is, doing another skill check after about 20 hours, then, almost always, I got a Gain the very 1st skill check or the 2nd one and this, even at "Very Easy" Ball of Knowledge condition, thus, then, truly being a "Guaranteed" Skill Gain....

So, does anyone know as a fact, not an assumption, where the times indicated by this Table come from?

Were they released by the Developers' Team time back and, thus, integrated in the UO Wiki because from an official source ?

Or are they times assumed by players ? 


Comments

  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,741
    Seriously IBTL 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,749
    haha  :D
    "at least to my finding, are not accurante and not reliable."

    Maybe you can share your table of actual gains, then we can replace the tables.
    It should even be named after you for the effort.

    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,300
    edited September 21
    Seth said:
    haha  :D
    "at least to my finding, are not accurante and not reliable."

    Maybe you can share your table of actual gains, then we can replace the tables.
    It should even be named after you for the effort.

    I think I mentioned that I am not sure of the numbers I got because I am unsure whether I got them off a Lucky/Unlucky RNG roll, or because the "proper" time "set" in the Guaranteed Gain System "Code" had lapsed...

    So, not being sure of them, I do not feel telling them....

    Yet, I can say that, at least to my findings, the times indicated in that Table are not reliable.... at least, they were not for me because often, I had to exceed those indicated times by many hours, sometimes even "doubling" them, before I could really get a "Guaranteed" skill Gain at the 1st or at most 2nd skill check (as a "Guaranteed" Gain mechanics should play out, to my opinion...) and this, as I mentioned, even with the Ball of Knowledge reporting a "Very Easy" skill check condition shich, supposedly, should not favour a skill gain, to my understanding......

    Now, if the times indicated by that Table were released back in the days by the Developers, either flat out or through a Formula which then players turned into that Table well, then I think there is a problem as to my finding, they are far from being accurate....

    If, instead, they were obtained by some players back in the day through some testing, well, then it would be a different consideration.

    That is why I thought to ask whether anyone knew where that Table comes out....
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,741
    popps said:
    Seth said:
    haha  :D
    "at least to my finding, are not accurante and not reliable."

    Maybe you can share your table of actual gains, then we can replace the tables.
    It should even be named after you for the effort.

    I think I mentioned that I am not sure of the numbers I got because I am unsure whether I got them off a Lucky/Unlucky RNG roll, or because the "proper" time "set" in the Guaranteed Gain System "Code" had lapsed...

    So, not being sure of them, I do not feel telling them....

    Yet, I can say that, at least to my findings, the times indicated in that Table are not reliable.... at least, they were not for me because often, I had to exceed those indicated times by many hours, sometimes even "doubling" them, before I could really get a "Guaranteed" skill Gain at the 1st or at most 2nd skill check (as a "Guaranteed" Gain mechanics should play out, to my opinion...) and this, as I mentioned, even with the Ball of Knowledge reporting a "Very Easy" skill check condition shich, supposedly, should not favour a skill gain, to my understanding......

    Now, if the times indicated by that Table were released back in the days by the Developers, either flat out or through a Formula which then players turned into that Table well, then I think there is a problem as to my finding, they are far from being accurate....

    If, instead, they were obtained by some players back in the day through some testing, well, then it would be a different consideration.

    That is why I thought to ask whether anyone knew where that Table comes out....
    You keep asking for proof of this or that but are unwilling to do the hard work yourself and reject every reply could you perhaps just tell us what you want to hear 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 1,573
    Isn't this like the 3rd or 4th thread this person has started on this topic (all previous threads have been locked/closed)??

    Wouldn't that be a violation of ToS @Mariah ?
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,741
    keven2002 said:
    Isn't this like the 3rd or 4th thread this person has started on this topic (all previous threads have been locked/closed)??

    Wouldn't that be a violation of ToS @ Mariah ?
    If you asked about spellbook straps or any of merv/yoshi bugs then yes
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 938
    Think UO gain system for most skills is based entirely on probabilities.  With most skills what you are doing vs your actual skill level affects that probability.  How often you perform an activity also affects your overall probability of success.  I don’t have a problem with the gain system.  Not saying I enjoy doing the same thing over and over and over again, or that I enjoy training skills that take forever to learn because I can only perform the skill only once every 20 seconds.  Generally if you have a probability of success between 45 and 79% (has been awhile so that spread could be off a little) you should gain normally.

    Have not trained every skill so understand general rules may not apply to every skill.  Believe taming is one of those that may have different parameters.  But generally if you have a reasonable probability of performing an activity successfully, you will gain normally for that skill.  Activities that take longer to perform will result in a longer time between gains for those skills.

    Agree tables are just approximations of the time it takes to get gains and that over time parameters used to calculate them may have changed, and don’t know that UO’s operating system has the capability of tracking a player’s time elapsed between gains.  Overall just taking a brief look at the table it does not mention the probability of success and think you would need to know that to know if the table is a fair representation of the maximum time required to get a gain at that probability.  Sorry if I missed that in your posts.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,300
    keven2002 said:
    Isn't this like the 3rd or 4th thread this person has started on this topic (all previous threads have been locked/closed)??

    Wouldn't that be a violation of ToS @ Mariah ?
    It is quite a different argument... I am asking in this thread about the Source of the Table which players take into account when trying to figure out "when" they should get their "Guaranteed" Skill Gain.... this was not touched in previous Threads.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,741
    edited September 21
    I agree spellbook straps are not broken they simply are not working properly I'd recommend a easy solution would be an exchange guy so i can choose another reward 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,300
    Arnold7 said:
    Think UO gain system for most skills is based entirely on probabilities.  With most skills what you are doing vs your actual skill level affects that probability.  How often you perform an activity also affects your overall probability of success.  I don’t have a problem with the gain system.  Not saying I enjoy doing the same thing over and over and over again, or that I enjoy training skills that take forever to learn because I can only perform the skill only once every 20 seconds.  Generally if you have a probability of success between 45 and 79% (has been awhile so that spread could be off a little) you should gain normally.

    Have not trained every skill so understand general rules may not apply to every skill.  Believe taming is one of those that may have different parameters.  But generally if you have a reasonable probability of performing an activity successfully, you will gain normally for that skill.  Activities that take longer to perform will result in a longer time between gains for those skills.

    Agree tables are just approximations of the time it takes to get gains and that over time parameters used to calculate them may have changed, and don’t know that UO’s operating system has the capability of tracking a player’s time elapsed between gains.  Overall just taking a brief look at the table it does not mention the probability of success and think you would need to know that to know if the table is a fair representation of the maximum time required to get a gain at that probability.  Sorry if I missed that in your posts.
    Think UO gain system for most skills is based entirely on probabilities.  With most skills what you are doing vs your actual skill level affects that probability.  How often you perform an activity also affects your overall probability of success.  I don’t have a problem with the gain system. 

    I need to disagree, according to my findings....

    I am saying this, because, as I mentioned, if I wait MUCH longer as the times indicated in the Table (50% and even 100%, double time longer...), I do get a Gain the very 1st or 2nd skill check which, to my viewing, does qualify as a "Guaranteed" Skill Gain and this, even with a Ball of Knowledge indicating only a "Very Easy" condition which, normally, should not  give a skill gain since, as we know, it is the "Optimal" condition which is the best one towards a skill gain.... 

    So, normally, outside of the Guaranteed Skill Gain mechanics yes, probabilities as you said have a saying on skill gains but, when the "due" time lapses, the "Guaranteed" Skill Gain kicks in, trumping any other probability condition. And Infact, as I said, "Very Easy" which normally, outside of Guaranteed Skill Gain does not provide a good probability towards a Skill Gain, when the Guaranteed Skill Gain mechanics kicks in, after its due time has lapsed, is uninfluential, at least for what I could find, since a skill gain arrives the 1st or 2nd skill check.

    My problem is, therefore, with that Table and the times it shows because they look not accurate, at least to my findings, since the real Guaranteed Skill Gains came for me, a LOT later then the times showed, like 50% and even 100% more time as those showed in that Table.

    That is why I am trying to find out where that Table comes from.... to try understand how the times it shows got sourced.
  • MargeMarge Posts: 651
    That table comes directly from Publish 16 notes dated July 23rd, 2002 from the UO team.




    Approximate GGS time period between 0.1 skill gains within the noted bracket

    Starting Skill Value

    Timer based on 350 total skill points

    Timer based on 500 total skill points

    Timer based on 700 total skill points

    0.0 – 4.9

    1 minute per +0.1

    3 minutes per +0.1

    5 minutes per +0.1

    5.0 – 9.9

    4 minutes per +0.1

    10 minutes per +0.1

    18 minutes per +0.1

    10.0 – 14.9

    7 minutes per +0.1

    17 minutes per +0.1

    30 minutes per +0.1

    15.0 – 19.9

    9 minutes per +0.1

    24 minutes per +0.1

    44 minutes per +0.1

    20.0 – 24.9

    12 minutes per +0.1

    31 minutes per +0.1

    57 minutes per +0.1

    25.0 – 29.9

    14 minutes per +0.1

    38 minutes per +0.1

    1.2 hours per +0.1

    30.0 – 34.9

    17 minutes per +0.1

    45 minutes per +0.1

    1.4 hours per +0.1

    35.0 – 39.9

    20 minutes per +0.1

    52 minutes per +0.1

    1.6 hours per +0.1

    40.0 – 44.9

    23 minutes per +0.1

    60 minutes per +0.1

    1.8 hours per +0.1

    45.0 – 49.9

    25 minutes per +0.1

    1.1 hours per +0.1

    2.0 hours per +0.1

    50.0 – 54.9

    27 minutes per +0.1

    1.2 hours per +0.1

    2.3 hours per +0.1

    55.0 – 59.9

    33 minutes per +0.1

    1.5 hours per +0.1

    2.7 hours per +0.1

    60.0 – 64.9

    55 minutes per +0.1

    2.5 hours per +0.1

    4.4 hours per +0.1

    65.0 – 69.9

    1.3 hours per +0.1

    3.6 hours per +0.1

    6.5 hours per +0.1

    70.0 – 74.9

    1.9 hours per +0.1

    4.9 hours per +0.1

    9.0 hours per +0.1

    75.0 – 79.9

    2.4 hours per +0.1

    6.4 hours per +0.1

    11.8 hours per +0.1

    80.0 – 84.9

    3.0 hours per +0.1

    8.2 hours per +0.1

    15.0 hours per +0.1

    85.0 – 89.9

    3.8 hours per +0.1

    10.1 hours per +0.1

    18.6 hours per +0.1

    90.0 – 94.9

    4.6 hours per +0.1

    12.4 hours per +0.1

    22.6 hours per +0.1

    95.0 – 99.9

    5.6 hours per +0.1

    14.9 hours per +0.1

    27.0 hours per +0.1

    100.0 – 104.9

    6.6 hours per +0.1

    17.6 hours per +0.1

    32.0 hours per +0.1

    105.0 – 109.9

    7.8 hours per +0.1

    20.7 hours per +0.1

    38.0 hours per +0.1

    110.0 – 114.9

    9.0 hours per +0.1

    24.0 hours per +0.1

    43.0 hours per +0.1

    115.0 – 120.0

    10.3 hours per +0.1

    27.7 hours per +0.1

    51.0 hours per +0.1


  • poppspopps Posts: 3,300
    edited September 21
    Marge said:
    That table comes directly from Publish 16 notes dated July 23rd, 2002 from the UO team.




    Approximate GGS time period between 0.1 skill gains within the noted bracket

    Starting Skill Value

    Timer based on 350 total skill points

    Timer based on 500 total skill points

    Timer based on 700 total skill points

    0.0 – 4.9

    1 minute per +0.1

    3 minutes per +0.1

    5 minutes per +0.1

    5.0 – 9.9

    4 minutes per +0.1

    10 minutes per +0.1

    18 minutes per +0.1

    10.0 – 14.9

    7 minutes per +0.1

    17 minutes per +0.1

    30 minutes per +0.1

    15.0 – 19.9

    9 minutes per +0.1

    24 minutes per +0.1

    44 minutes per +0.1

    20.0 – 24.9

    12 minutes per +0.1

    31 minutes per +0.1

    57 minutes per +0.1

    25.0 – 29.9

    14 minutes per +0.1

    38 minutes per +0.1

    1.2 hours per +0.1

    30.0 – 34.9

    17 minutes per +0.1

    45 minutes per +0.1

    1.4 hours per +0.1

    35.0 – 39.9

    20 minutes per +0.1

    52 minutes per +0.1

    1.6 hours per +0.1

    40.0 – 44.9

    23 minutes per +0.1

    60 minutes per +0.1

    1.8 hours per +0.1

    45.0 – 49.9

    25 minutes per +0.1

    1.1 hours per +0.1

    2.0 hours per +0.1

    50.0 – 54.9

    27 minutes per +0.1

    1.2 hours per +0.1

    2.3 hours per +0.1

    55.0 – 59.9

    33 minutes per +0.1

    1.5 hours per +0.1

    2.7 hours per +0.1

    60.0 – 64.9

    55 minutes per +0.1

    2.5 hours per +0.1

    4.4 hours per +0.1

    65.0 – 69.9

    1.3 hours per +0.1

    3.6 hours per +0.1

    6.5 hours per +0.1

    70.0 – 74.9

    1.9 hours per +0.1

    4.9 hours per +0.1

    9.0 hours per +0.1

    75.0 – 79.9

    2.4 hours per +0.1

    6.4 hours per +0.1

    11.8 hours per +0.1

    80.0 – 84.9

    3.0 hours per +0.1

    8.2 hours per +0.1

    15.0 hours per +0.1

    85.0 – 89.9

    3.8 hours per +0.1

    10.1 hours per +0.1

    18.6 hours per +0.1

    90.0 – 94.9

    4.6 hours per +0.1

    12.4 hours per +0.1

    22.6 hours per +0.1

    95.0 – 99.9

    5.6 hours per +0.1

    14.9 hours per +0.1

    27.0 hours per +0.1

    100.0 – 104.9

    6.6 hours per +0.1

    17.6 hours per +0.1

    32.0 hours per +0.1

    105.0 – 109.9

    7.8 hours per +0.1

    20.7 hours per +0.1

    38.0 hours per +0.1

    110.0 – 114.9

    9.0 hours per +0.1

    24.0 hours per +0.1

    43.0 hours per +0.1

    115.0 – 120.0

    10.3 hours per +0.1

    27.7 hours per +0.1

    51.0 hours per +0.1


    Thank you for the information although, that is then no good news to me since, as I said, to my findings at least, those times are "off" and quite some to actually being able to get "Guaranteed" Skill Gains after those shown times lapse....

    If they come straight from the Developers and then, at least to what I experienced, those times need to be significantly extended (+50% to +100% more time as that showed by the table) in order to truly get a "Guaranteed" Skill Gain at the very 1st or 2nd skill check, then something must be wrong with the code....

    I mean, if the Developers said that, < 350 total skills and at a skill level of 115.0-120.0 a Guaranteed Skill Gain should come after 10.3 hours past the last one, "approximatedly ", then the 10.3 hours could become 10.5, even 11 hours but not the 15+ hours, occasionally even 20 hours that I experienced.... the much longer time that I saw makes me think that something is not working as it should with the Guaranteed Gain System.....
  • Lord_FrodoLord_Frodo Posts: 1,338
    So what skill/skills are you training?
    What method are you using to train?
    How long do you train one skill?
    How many times do you train one skill?
    How many months/years have you been gathering your data?
    Post you data/findings.

    It is totally impossible to give you any feedback unless you provide information.
    You have provided nothing for the DEVs/player base to give you any meaningful feedback on or data that the DEVs can look at in the program.

    Alls this is is the typical information that a person gives a car repair shop of "IT DON"T WORK" well that sure tells me alot.
  • vortexvortex Posts: 155
    I just gained .1 skill in novel reading!
  • Lord_FrodoLord_Frodo Posts: 1,338
     :D 
  • YoshiYoshi Posts: 2,011
    @popps what skill are you trying to gain?
    whatever it is I prob know a trick to get it to 120 quicker than you writing that post.”
    Posts on this account have been pre filtered from personal comment or opinion in an effort to suppress conservative views in order to protect the reader.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,300
    edited September 22
    Yoshi said:
    “ @ popps what skill are you trying to gain?
    whatever it is I prob know a trick to get it to 120 quicker than you writing that post.”
    Thanks, but more about reaching an end, my argument is more about an in-game mechanics that is not working, to my viewing, as it is said it should....

    Since you are so active in pointing out Bugs, take it moreless as a "Bug" Post....

    I mean, we have a Table, to my understanding Published by the Developers when the Guaranteed Gain System came out, that indicates certain Times lapsed which, a "Guaranteed" Gain should come.

    A player goes to that Table, reads those times and tries to go by them, trusting them, when working a skill up, but eventually finds out, by experience, that those times are OFF and not by a little, mind you, but by a whole lot!

    To make you an example, yesterday with the character I was doing the test with total skills < 350 and skill being trained at 118.0 , I let the 10.3 hours lapse (1st column of that Table) by a good margin and tried again the skill check 3 times at 12 hours, no dice.

    Logged off, then tried again for 3 more skill checks at 15 hours (about +50% over the time showed on the Table).... still no dice....

    So waited at 17 hours, again with 3 skill checks.... still nothing.

    Tried again at 18 hours and still no gain, then, finally, at 20 hours from the last skill gain, tried again and got the "Guaranteed" Skill Gain under a "Very Easy" condition at the 1st skill check.

    I mean, at 20 hours when the Table said I should have gotten it at 10.3 hours ?

    And this should be a working well in-game mechanics tat players should accept as it is ?

    I am sorry, but then the name should be changed from "Guaranteed" to "Cross Your Fingers" Skill Gain mechanics.....

    Why I think this mechanics is important that @Kyronix double checks it and makes it truly work as a "Guaranteed" Skill Gain when the due time has lapsed ?

    Did you see the very last Newsletter ?

    It reports 110 CS actions for "Macroing" which, most usually, means Macoing for Skills training....

    If the "Guaranteed" Skill Gain mechanics was fixed and players could finally rely on the times shown by its Table to get gains, perhaps, a lot less players would rely on Macroing to raise their skills and, thus, would avoid CS actions ?

    What do you think Kyronix, is it a matter worthy of spending time on, to fix it and finally make it work reliably?

    Thanks !
  • MargeMarge Posts: 651
    In order replicate your results for proper testing, we need to know (just like the developers need ALL info when reading a bug report.) exactly WHICH Skill and what ACTION (item made, spell cast, creature fighting, etc.) you are doing. If you are a 118 mage trying to get a guaranteed gain with nightsight, you will never get it. In order for even Kyronix to look into it (although it would actually be Bleak looking into it); he would need this info too.
  • MariahMariah Posts: 2,270Moderator
    I thought we'd covered this topic?
    @popps please email your test results stating:
    what skill you are training
    what is your current skill level
    What are you doing to gain
    How often are you doing it (ie continuously or with a time delay between attempts)
    Timed gains information.
This discussion has been closed.