"Guaranteed" Gain System bugged ?

poppspopps Posts: 3,304
edited July 17 in General Discussions
Supposedly, to my understanding, the "Guaranteed" Gain System should guarantee, according to the Table at https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/technical/skill-gain-systems/ , gains when time and skill levels are met.

Well, I have been training a skill at 104.5 skill level with a total of skill points at 337.2 .

So, being below 350 total skill points, and between a skill level of 100.0 and 104.9 skill points for the skill I am working on, my GGSes should be every 6.6 hours, according to the Table at the above Link.

Now, I have been trying to get a skill check every 7 hours just to make sure (which is more then 6.6 hours...) yet, while there are times that I get the 0.1 skill gain at the first skill check, thus with GGS working as intended, there are also times whereas I have to try many, many times like 20 or 30 times before I get my 0.1 skill gain...

This should not be, if GGS was as the word says, a "Guaranteed" Gain.... I should always, every 6.6 hours or longer time, get my 0.1 skill gain at the very FIRST skill check.... and not have to try 20 or 30 times before I get it....

This has been happening several times now... it is not casual, something is NOT right with GGS code... @Kyronix , do you please mind giving it a look and see why the GGS gains are not consistently at the very 1st skill check, if the time shown at the Table of the above Link is met ?

Thanks.
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Comments

  • JackFlashUkJackFlashUk Posts: 604
    edited July 17
    3,033 posts since Jan 2019

    ^ you need to seriously think about THIS

    Do you spend your entire gameplay time looking for things to randomly moan about,  so this skill you are "training" that you don't bother to disclose, are you marcoing or just trying once every 6.6 hours (whatever time scale that is)  you will take forever to finish a skill that way

    And I seriously doubt any Dev will stop what they are doing to sort this world shattering problem


    So you are not working on a skill at all, but just wanting to add .1 when it's due?  how boring is that?
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,304
    edited July 17
    3,033 posts since Jan 2019

    ^ you need to seriously think about THIS

    Do you spend your entire gameplay time looking for things to randomly moan about,  so this skill you are "training" that you don't bother to disclose, are you marcoing or just trying once every 6.6 hours (whatever time scale that is)  you will take forever to finish a skill that way

    And I seriously doubt any Dev will stop what they are doing to sort this world shattering problem


    So you are not working on a skill at all, but just wanting to add .1 when it's due?  how boring is that?
    Why would it matter what skill it is that I am training ?

    "Guaranteed" Gain System, I suppose, works with any and all skills....

    Wait that set time, in my case 6.6 hours, at 104.5 skill level and with a total of 337.2 skill points on the character, and the very 1st skill check "should" bring me a 0.1 skill gain.

    Yes, it "should" be that easy..... that's what the word "Guaranteed" should ensure....

    Unfortunately, as I said, while sometimes it works, several other times it does NOT, and one has to go through many, many skill checks, even past the set time lapsed, before the player sees that "Guaranteed" 0.1 skill Gain....

    I see this as wrong and, to my opinion, it should be looked at and fixed to work reliably at the very 1st skill check, past the set lapsed time..

    And I seriously doubt any Dev will stop what they are doing to sort this world shattering problem
    So you are not working on a skill at all, but just wanting to add .1 when it's due?  how boring is that?

    It might not be a world shattering problem BUT, to a player trying to advance in skill in Ultima Online, it could be a very big deal...

    Some skills are quite hard to raise, and not all players have countless time to spend in the game OR want to use AFK scripts to raise their characters' skills...

    Therefore, having a skill check every X hours to get a "Guaranteed" skill Gain might be for some 'players the only way, other then super expensive Transcendence scrolls, to see their character's skill go up at high skill levels....

    To my opinion, worthy enough to be looked at, most indeed....

  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,741
    It might be at the last of the 6.6 hours that you get a gain it doesn't say you will get .01 exactly every 6.6 hours 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 941
    Think the skill and how you train it makes a difference.  I train mostly fighting skills and regardless of which one I am training have never gone an hour without a gain.  Usually without a scroll get about .3 or .4 an hour at higher levels.  I know not all skills gain at the same rate when training.  Some take much more time than others.

    6.6 hours might be based on how long the activity takes to perform and not how long you are playing.  Anyway might help others to give you a better answer if you identify the skill and how you are training it.

  • poppspopps Posts: 3,304
    edited July 17
    McDougle said:
    It might be at the last of the 6.6 hours that you get a gain it doesn't say you will get .01 exactly every 6.6 hours 
    And, as I said in my OP, I wait 7 hours (which is more then 6.6 hours....) and then make a skill check.....

    Sometimes it works, and I get my "Guaranteed" 0.1 skill Gain at the very 1st skill check BUT, and this happens quite frequently, unfortunately, not just once in a blue Moon, even with the 7 hours as lapsed, I have to do many, many skill checks, 20, 30 and even more, sometimes, before I can finally see that "Guaranteed" 0.1 skill Gain....

    This is not right, to my opinion, and should get fixed.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,304
    edited July 17
    Arnold7 said:
    Think the skill and how you train it makes a difference.  I train mostly fighting skills and regardless of which one I am training have never gone an hour without a gain.  Usually without a scroll get about .3 or .4 an hour at higher levels.  I know not all skills gain at the same rate when training.  Some take much more time than others.

    6.6 hours might be based on how long the activity takes to perform and not how long you are playing.  Anyway might help others to give you a better answer if you identify the skill and how you are training it.

    Think the skill and how you train it makes a difference.

    Well, not under the "Guaranteed Gain System", as I understand it.....

    GGS grants, or "should" grant I should say, that if the set time has lapsed, that character, no matter what (that is what "Guaranteed" means....), would get a 0.1 skill gain at the very 1st skill check after the set time has lapsed....

    Unfortunately, as I have found out, this does not happen.... sometimes after the lapsing of the set time the "Guarantees" 0.1 skill Gain comes at the very 1st skill check, but there are times, when many, many and many more skill checks are needed before that "Guaranteed" 0.1 skill Gain shows up....

    Which, to my opinion, is wrong. Guaranteed means what it means, 100%.

    6.6 hours might be based on how long the activity takes to perform and not how long you are playing. 

    That is the real life time, as I understand it, regardless whether the character was or not logged, in that time frame, "since the last skill gain".....

    For example, log the character, do a skill check, get a 0.1 skill Gain. Log off that character, wait 6.6 hours real life time, re-log that character, do a skill check, and the GGS should, 100%, at the very 1st try, bring another 0.1 skill gain, Rinse and repeat every 6.6 hours or more time...

    That is how I understand GGS works.... or, I should say, "should" work....

    But it does not happen so. Sometimes the 0.1 skill Gain comes the very 1st skill check, other times it does not, even though 6.6 real life hours or more do have lapsed, and one needs many, many skill checks in order to see that 0.1 skill Gain....

    It is broken, to my opinion, NOT reliable as a "Guaranteed" Gain System should instead be.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,741
    No no no it is working correctly you think it's right at the hour mark but its within the hours and you can't just do it once you have to be working the skills repetitively look at it this way in real life it takes a crafter decades to become highly skilled UO reproduces this with making 125778 circlet .... 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,304
    McDougle said:
    No no no it is working correctly you think it's right at the hour mark but its within the hours and you can't just do it once you have to be working the skills repetitively look at it this way in real life it takes a crafter decades to become highly skilled UO reproduces this with making 125778 circlet .... 
    If one looks at the Table that is within the OP post, the time increases as the skill level goes up so, even at below 350 total skill points, to go from, say, 104.0 skill to 120.0 skill using strictly GGS, one would need : 

    - from 104.0 to 104.9 times 9 skill checks of 6.6 hours each   =   59.4 hours
    - from 105.0 to 109.9 times 49 skill checks of 7.8 hours each = 382.2 hours
    - from 110.0 to 114.9  times 49 skill checks of 9.0 hours each = 441.0 hours
    - from 115.0 to 120.0 times 49 skill checks of 10.3 hours each = 504.7 hours

    That is, from 104.0 to 120.0 skill using strictly GGS, a total of 1,387.3 hours or, 57.8 days and this, if one was to observe any and all GGS times precisely which, I doubt any player could meet....

    So, more realistically, through GGS one would still need months to go from 104.0 to 120.0 skill....

    Quite still a lot of time, me thinks....
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,741
    You are completely ignoring the answer it say the within the 14 hour period you're going to get 2 gains not exactly every 7 hours that's why you work the skill 

    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • AmberWitchAmberWitch Posts: 420
    edited July 17
    deleted
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,304
    edited July 17
    McDougle said:
    You are completely ignoring the answer it say the within the 14 hour period you're going to get 2 gains not exactly every 7 hours that's why you work the skill 

    To my understanding, the relevant part of the "Guaranteed" Gain System at the UO WIki Link in the OP, is when it says : 

    Characters will still be able to gain skill points in the normal use-based fashion – GGS will simply be keeping track of how long it has been since you had gained a point of skill and award you a mandatory point (as in 0.0 to 0.1) if you had not gained your own after a certain period of time.

    My understanding is, from reading that paragraph that, with my numbers, for example, that is, the skill that I am training at 104.5, a total of skill points at 337.2, I could train that skill non-stop and get no gains BUT, after 6.6 real life hours from my last skill gain, I would get 100% another skill gain.

    YET, the training of the skill non-stop, is NOT a requirement for the next "guaranteed" skill gain, the only and sole requirement for that "guaranteed" skill gain is "time", real life time, depending on the skill being trained level and the total skill points that the character has.

    Hence, that character can very well get a skill gain, do whatever different from using that skill for 6.6 hours or even be logged off and yet, training that skill again in 6.6 real life hours or more, would yield, "guaranteed", 100%, another skill gain in that skill.

    Or, I would better say, it "should", because, as I mentioned, the "Guaranteed" skill Gain does not always occur after that set time has lapsed, at the 1st new skill check, sometimes many, many further skill checks are needed way past the set time for a "Guaranteed" skill Gain..... and this tells me that, therefore, the Code is not working as it should, to ensure, that is, that skill gain occurs at the very1st skill check after the the set time has lapsed.

  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,741
    If you got three skill gain would you think its broken? Your perception doesn't mean it's broken 
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,304
    edited July 17
    McDougle said:
    If you got three skill gain would you think its broken? Your perception doesn't mean it's broken 
    How so ?

    If the Guaranteed Gain System says that, after the last skill gain, X real time has lapsed a new skill gain is due, guaranteed, 100% to show up, and this does not happen, I am sorry, but the only conclusion that I can draw is that the GGS is broken...

    "Guaranteed", to my opinion, can only mean, aheam, "Guaranteed", 100%, absolutely.

    Yet, as I have seen, while this occurs some times, it does not occur at other times thus making what "should" be "Guaranteed", far from actually being "Guaranteed".....
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 941


    Characters will still be able to gain skill points in the normal use-based fashion – GGS will simply be keeping track of how long it has been since you had gained a point of skill and award you a mandatory point (as in 0.0 to 0.1) if you had not gained your own after a certain period of time.



    Is this the reason I get .1 points so quickly when I train a skill that I have over 100 points in right after logging on for the night?

  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,741
    popps said:
    McDougle said:
    If you got three skill gain would you think its broken? Your perception doesn't mean it's broken 
    How so ?

    If the Guaranteed Gain System says that, after the last skill gain, X real time has lapsed a new skill gain is due, guaranteed, 100% to show up, and this does not happen, I am sorry, but the only conclusion that I can draw is that the GGS is broken...

    "Guaranteed", to my opinion, can only mean, aheam, "Guaranteed", 100%, absolutely.

    Yet, as I have seen, while this occurs some times, it does not occur at other times thus making what "should" be "Guaranteed", far from actually being "Guaranteed".....
    Again I point out it doesn't not say guaranteed at exactly that second in time...
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • JackFlashUkJackFlashUk Posts: 604
    In my opinion
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,753
    edited July 18
    Wiki says

    Characters will still be able to gain skill points in the normal use-based fashion – GGS will simply be keeping track of how long it has been since you had gained a point of skill and award you a mandatory point (as in 0.0 to 0.1) if you had not gained your own after a certain period of time.

    GGS Timer: The length of the time period, or “timer,” between 0.1 skill point gains is based on the level of skill; the timer will increase as characters achieve a higher total of skill points.

    If the time period passes and you do not gain skill points through the regular use-based method, you will gain a point thanks to GGS. GGS time periods are based on the server system clock, meaning that you don’t have to be logged in for your timers to refresh.

    ---

    So after approximately stated server time, it should compel a 0.1 gain.

    Note it's server time, maybe server downtime is not counted. I am not sure if you counted that.

    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • MerusMerus Posts: 555
    I believe there are a couple additional factors that go into the GGS system:

    1. I think the skill check is supposed to be successful.  Fizzling a spell won’t get you a gain, only successfully casting.

    2. I think the skill check must also be in the appropriate difficulty.  If you have 104 magery casting magic arrow successfully is not likely to get a gain.

    I could be wrong on both counts, it’s been forever since I relied on GGS for gains.
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 941
    Merus I am pretty positive you are right.  That is the way I have always understood it.  Best chance for gains is a probability of success from 45% to 75%.  That’s why I mentioned earlier your chance of a gain depends on the skill and what you are doing.  To get a gain your probability of success has to be more than 0% and less than 100%.  Thought when I originally read about the automatic gain system a player would have to be extremely unlucky for it to apply.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,304
    Seth said:
    Wiki says

    Characters will still be able to gain skill points in the normal use-based fashion – GGS will simply be keeping track of how long it has been since you had gained a point of skill and award you a mandatory point (as in 0.0 to 0.1) if you had not gained your own after a certain period of time.

    GGS Timer: The length of the time period, or “timer,” between 0.1 skill point gains is based on the level of skill; the timer will increase as characters achieve a higher total of skill points.

    If the time period passes and you do not gain skill points through the regular use-based method, you will gain a point thanks to GGS. GGS time periods are based on the server system clock, meaning that you don’t have to be logged in for your timers to refresh.

    ---

    So after approximately stated server time, it should compel a 0.1 gain.

    Note it's server time, maybe server downtime is not counted. I am not sure if you counted that.

    Note it's server time, maybe server downtime is not counted. I am not sure if you counted that.

    I have experienced malfunctions of the GGS "after" Server coming back up from the maintainance so, I did count the server time.... besides, most servers have a very short downtime, like 15 minutes or so which is very well compensated by my doing a skill check every 7+ hours when the required time in between GGS skill gains is 6.6 hours...

    I am afraid to say, that GGS does NOT work... not at least, as it was intended to do... that is, to "Guarantee" a skill gain after the set time dependant on the skill level and the total skill points, has lapsed.

    At the very best, it is NOT reliable which is something very bad for a mechanics which was intended to "Guarantee" a skill Gain every X time....

    Sometimes the 1st skill check grats the skill gain, but other times it does not, even though the set time has lapsed, and many, very many skill checks are needed before that skill gain shows up.

    Flat out, to my opinion, as it is, GGS is broken... since it is NOT reliable and far from being "Guaranteed".
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,304
    edited July 18
    Merus said:
    I believe there are a couple additional factors that go into the GGS system:

    1. I think the skill check is supposed to be successful.  Fizzling a spell won’t get you a gain, only successfully casting.

    2. I think the skill check must also be in the appropriate difficulty.  If you have 104 magery casting magic arrow successfully is not likely to get a gain.

    I could be wrong on both counts, it’s been forever since I relied on GGS for gains.
    On the 1st one, to my understanding, you are right, the skill check needs to be succesfull.

    In my case, I am NOT getting the skill gain in many occasions, after the set time has lapsed, even with succesfull skill checks so, this is not what impedes the skill gain.

    On the 2nd one, a truthfull "Guaranteed" Gain System should not, to my viewing, look at the appropriate difficulty since, by definition, it is a "Guaranteed" skill Gain so, just checking th skill, regardless of the difficulty, should award the skill gain, regardless what the difficulty was for the skill check.

    In my case, furthermore, I am training up (or trying to...) raise animal Taming and using Bulls (which is the recommended animal to train at that level, alongside with Ridgebacks) which the Crystal Ball of Knowledge shows having a difficulty of Very Easy and I am also trying with the Combat Training Taming Mastery, another "recommended" skill raising practise, which the Crystal Ball of Knowledge also shows having a difficulty of Very Easy.

    And the proof to that, is that, under these same conditions, that is, taming Bulls and using the Combat Training Mastery which both have a Very Easy difficulty, sometimes, do grant a skill Gain at the very 1st skill check after the 6.6 hours have lapsed.... problem is, that this is not consistent.... sometimes it does, other times it does not. A truly "Guaranteed" Gain System should, reliably, 100% bring in that skill gain, at the very 1st skill check after the set time has lapsed, no other impediments but time being an obstacle to the gains.....

    Bottom line is, skill check difficulty should, to my viewing and understading, have zero impact whatsoever to receiving the "Guaranteed" skill Gain, if that mechanics is intended, as I understand it is, to "Guarantee" to players a skill Gain after a set time has lapsed, factoring in their skill level and total skill points of the character.
  • Victim_Of_SiegeVictim_Of_Siege Posts: 1,260
    I picked 3 Characters on Three different shards (Balhae, origin, and Atlantic) all three got their GGS gain . There is not an issue with the GGS. 
    A Goblin, a Gargoyle, and a Drow walk into a bar . . .

    Never be afraid to challenge the status quo

  • MariahMariah Posts: 2,274Moderator
    @popps please re-read the linked page, with particular attention to this paragraph:
    The chart below may be used as an estimate of the amount of time that may need to pass (after multiple consecutive skill-use successes without skill point gains) before a character will see a raise of 0.1 within the noted bracket due to GGS, and NOT how long it will take to pass through the whole bracket. Please note that these time periods are not to be used as an absolute rule, but instead as a general guide-as the saying goes, “your mileage may vary.”

    and these statements:

    UO’s basic skill gain operates as a “use-based system,” and each time a character successfully uses a skill he or she has the possibility of gaining in that skill – sometimes the character will gain skill, other times not.

    GGS tracks each successful use of a skill, and whether or not skill points were gained in the wake of that success. If no skill points are gained over a given period of time, then GGS will award the character a minimum skill point gain as compensation.

    GGS affected by the difficulty of the task: The most noticeable difference between GGS and previous skill gain systems or incentives is that gains for skills that score in the 90s, for example, are not only possible during normal or casual play, they are guaranteed-provided you are successfully performing your skill in or around your current skill level.
    The whole point of GGS was to compensate for the frustration of training without success. It was never intended to replace training in entirety. It can't track successful use of the skill if you're not actually using it.
    Also you might want to re-think your target and attempt to find something less easily tamed, where the ball of knowledge gives the message 'optimal'.

  • SethSeth Posts: 2,753
    edited July 18
    Ah Ha, she caught your mistake!

    @popps says,
    "by definition, it is a "Guaranteed" skill Gain so, just checking th skill, regardless of the difficulty, should award the skill gain..
    "


    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • JackFlashUkJackFlashUk Posts: 604
    Popps. No one gives a rats ass about your problem.  So just give up and look for the next boring trivial problem to kill us with.  
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,304
    edited July 18
    Mariah said:
    @ popps please re-read the linked page, with particular attention to this paragraph:
    The chart below may be used as an estimate of the amount of time that may need to pass (after multiple consecutive skill-use successes without skill point gains) before a character will see a raise of 0.1 within the noted bracket due to GGS, and NOT how long it will take to pass through the whole bracket. Please note that these time periods are not to be used as an absolute rule, but instead as a general guide-as the saying goes, “your mileage may vary.”

    and these statements:

    UO’s basic skill gain operates as a “use-based system,” and each time a character successfully uses a skill he or she has the possibility of gaining in that skill – sometimes the character will gain skill, other times not.

    GGS tracks each successful use of a skill, and whether or not skill points were gained in the wake of that success. If no skill points are gained over a given period of time, then GGS will award the character a minimum skill point gain as compensation.

    GGS affected by the difficulty of the task: The most noticeable difference between GGS and previous skill gain systems or incentives is that gains for skills that score in the 90s, for example, are not only possible during normal or casual play, they are guaranteed-provided you are successfully performing your skill in or around your current skill level.
    The whole point of GGS was to compensate for the frustration of training without success. It was never intended to replace training in entirety. It can't track successful use of the skill if you're not actually using it.
    Also you might want to re-think your target and attempt to find something less easily tamed, where the ball of knowledge gives the message 'optimal'.

    In regards to the 1st argument that you raise, I have a hard time to understand that the times indicated in the Table might be estimates, rather then precise times and I say this, because usually, software code is done with numbers, thus making things pretty "precise", rather then "estimated"....

    What I am trying to say is, that if it was decided that after X time that a player had the last succesfull skill gain, the server would "Guarantee" another skill gain, well, that is a number inserted in the code, I would imagine,,, in my example, the 6.6 hours which, I need to understand, means 6 hours and 36 minutes....

    That is, if my character's last succesfull skill gain was at 00:00 , that would mean that, at 06:36 or any time after that server time, if my character did a skill check of that skill, I would receive a skill Gain, "Guaranteed"....

    But, even if we wanted to take into account the "estimated times" argument, I could accept the "Guaranteed" Skill Gains to be off of a few minutes, and not half an hour or more, as it DOES HAVE happened to me when, sometimes, it took me almost an hour of trying non stop, PAST the 7 hours from the last skill gain (thus making it like 8 hours lapsed, and thus, way in excess of the required 6.6 hours...).

    As in regards to the second argument which you raise, the “use-based system” being only a possibility for a skill Gain.... well.... wouldn't that totally defy the definition of a "Guaranteed" Skill Gain mechanics ?

    If it is Guaranteed after X time from the last gain, to me this means it is guaranteed when that time as lapsed, and not when that time + additional Y or Z extra more time was to lapse...

    That, to my viewing, would totally defy the entire concept of a "Guaranteed" skill gain....

    In regards then to the third argument which you raise, the difficulty of the task, well, aside from taming Bulls (together with Ridgebacks) being recommended to be "the" tameable to use all the way to 120.0 animal taming skill, along side with using the Taming Combat Training Mastery, as I have said, I DO get gains using Bulls or Combat Training (both reported by the Crystal Ball of Knowledge as being "Very Easy" in regards to skill difficulty) at the very 1st skill check after the 6.6 GGS timer has lapsed so, I need to think, this skill difficulty does not matter otherwise, I would not get, ever, skill gains at the very 1st skill check past the 6.6 hours timer....

    And rightfully so, because, in my book "Guaranteed" means what it means, "certain", "realiable", "100%".... if skill difficulty was to be factored in, then, such certainty would cease to be present and the "Guaranteed" Gain System would be far from being guaranteed at all, me thinks.

    Furthermore, as I mentioned already, if skill difficulty was to be a factor, then it would be inexplicable why I still get, occasionally, skill gains at the very 1st skill check past the 6.6 hours using those same Bulls and that same Taming Mastery.... I should not get those gains, if the Very Easy difficulty was to cancel out my chance at a skill gain...

    My argument being, that either a Very Easy skill difficulty can grant a skill gain, or it cannot, and, sorry, I cannot accept the argument that it can but, only, with a lower chance... NOT, when it comes to GGS....

    I can accept the argument that a Very Easy skill difficulty can lower the chances at a skill gain "outside " of GGS... but what I am saying is, that GGS should by all means TRUMP skill difficulty if it wants to mean "Guaranteed" Gain.....

    What I suspect is, that probably this might be the mulfunctioning of GGS.... that is, the regular code for skill Gains factors in skill difficulty but, when GGS was coded to "Guarantee" to players skill gains in X time, for some reasons, it was not coded to have GGS "trump" the skill difficulty condition and award a Gain only, and exclusively, under the "timer" condition and nothing else with the timer being dictated by the skill level and the total of skill points that the character has....

    @Kyronix , could you, perhaps, kindly have a look at this and please fix it, thus making GGS truly a "Guaranteed" Gain System and not the unreliable mechanics that it now seems to be ?

    As in regards to you closure point, and that is that it was not intended to replace training in its entirety, well, to my viewing, GGS makes sense to be used only at higher levels of the skill, past 100.0.... for below that level, players would still prefer, I assume, to do it in longer logged in stretches, perhaps using Alacrity scrolls, if they have them or can afford them...

    I see no "evil" at all in GGS being used to train up a skill at higher levels.... certainly, MUCH better, to my opinion, as compared using AFK macro scripts.... not to mention, that as I explained in a post above, with numbers, even using GGS gains, it still takes MONTHS to train a skill from 100.0 to 120.0 .... I see totally nothing wrong with this and it offers to players who do not have too much time to be logged in UO, or who do not want to cheat to train up their skills, a valid and viable alternative to reach 120.0.

    If it worked reliably and consistently, that is, and that is why I made this Threat, to try capture the attention of the the Developers to then please fix the current unreliability and unpredictabilty of the "Guaranteed" Gain System which is, at the moment, anything BUT "Guaranteed ", to my opinion.......
  • MariahMariah Posts: 2,274Moderator
    The guaranteed gain system was introduced in publish 16, July 2002. The information in the wiki is taken directly from the publish notes, which you can see here: https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/technical/previous-publishes/2002-2/2002-publish-16-part-2-23rd-july/

    Try training on pets with higher difficulty, I believe you will gain more quickly.  Speaking from personal experience, training at the proper level gives considerably faster gains. While it IS possible to train on bulls to 120, that route is not recommended to active players and I most certainly did not use it myself.


  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 941
    I leave the crystal ball of knowledge on when I train.  I get gains most often at the optimal and easy ratings.  I usually switch to a skill that has a probability of 45% or so when very easy starts to come up so I don’t get challenging that often.  In practice I don’t notice any difference between the rate of gains I get at the optimal and easy ratings.  But at the very easy rating gains tend to be much fewer and farther between.  Agree with Mariah this time unless you are just testing the system that you should find something a little more difficult to train.
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,753
    edited July 18
    popps said:
    Mariah said:
    @ popps please re-read the linked page, with particular attention to this paragraph:
    The chart below may be used as an estimate of the amount of time that may need to pass (after multiple consecutive skill-use successes without skill point gains) before a character will see a raise of 0.1 within the noted bracket due to GGS, and NOT how long it will take to pass through the whole bracket. Please note that these time periods are not to be used as an absolute rule, but instead as a general guide-as the saying goes, “your mileage may vary.”

    and these statements:

    UO’s basic skill gain operates as a “use-based system,” and each time a character successfully uses a skill he or she has the possibility of gaining in that skill – sometimes the character will gain skill, other times not.

    GGS tracks each successful use of a skill, and whether or not skill points were gained in the wake of that success. If no skill points are gained over a given period of time, then GGS will award the character a minimum skill point gain as compensation.

    GGS affected by the difficulty of the task: The most noticeable difference between GGS and previous skill gain systems or incentives is that gains for skills that score in the 90s, for example, are not only possible during normal or casual play, they are guaranteed-provided you are successfully performing your skill in or around your current skill level.
    The whole point of GGS was to compensate for the frustration of training without success. It was never intended to replace training in entirety. It can't track successful use of the skill if you're not actually using it.
    Also you might want to re-think your target and attempt to find something less easily tamed, where the ball of knowledge gives the message 'optimal'.

    In regards to the 1st argument that you raise, I have a hard time to understand that the times indicated in the Table might be estimates, rather then precise times and I say this, because usually, software code is done with numbers, thus making things pretty "precise", rather then "estimated"....

    What I am trying to say is, that if it was decided that after X time that a player had the last succesfull skill gain, the server would "Guarantee" another skill gain, well, that is a number inserted in the code, I would imagine,,, in my example, the 6.6 hours which, I need to understand, means 6 hours and 36 minutes....

    That is, if my character's last succesfull skill gain was at 00:00 , that would mean that, at 06:36 or any time after that server time, if my character did a skill check of that skill, I would receive a skill Gain, "Guaranteed"....

    But, even if we wanted to take into account the "estimated times" argument, I could accept the "Guaranteed" Skill Gains to be off of a few minutes, and not half an hour or more, as it DOES HAVE happened to me when, sometimes, it took me almost an hour of trying non stop, PAST the 7 hours from the last skill gain (thus making it like 8 hours lapsed, and thus, way in excess of the required 6.6 hours...).

    As in regards to the second argument which you raise, the “use-based system” being only a possibility for a skill Gain.... well.... wouldn't that totally defy the definition of a "Guaranteed" Skill Gain mechanics ?

    If it is Guaranteed after X time from the last gain, to me this means it is guaranteed when that time as lapsed, and not when that time + additional Y or Z extra more time was to lapse...

    That, to my viewing, would totally defy the entire concept of a "Guaranteed" skill gain....

    In regards then to the third argument which you raise, the difficulty of the task, well, aside from taming Bulls (together with Ridgebacks) being recommended to be "the" tameable to use all the way to 120.0 animal taming skill, along side with using the Taming Combat Training Mastery, as I have said, I DO get gains using Bulls or Combat Training (both reported by the Crystal Ball of Knowledge as being "Very Easy" in regards to skill difficulty) at the very 1st skill check after the 6.6 GGS timer has lapsed so, I need to think, this skill difficulty does not matter otherwise, I would not get, ever, skill gains at the very 1st skill check past the 6.6 hours timer....

    And rightfully so, because, in my book "Guaranteed" means what it means, "certain", "realiable", "100%".... if skill difficulty was to be factored in, then, such certainty would cease to be present and the "Guaranteed" Gain System would be far from being guaranteed at all, me thinks.

    Furthermore, as I mentioned already, if skill difficulty was to be a factor, then it would be inexplicable why I still get, occasionally, skill gains at the very 1st skill check past the 6.6 hours using those same Bulls and that same Taming Mastery.... I should not get those gains, if the Very Easy difficulty was to cancel out my chance at a skill gain...

    My argument being, that either a Very Easy skill difficulty can grant a skill gain, or it cannot, and, sorry, I cannot accept the argument that it can but, only, with a lower chance... NOT, when it comes to GGS....

    I can accept the argument that a Very Easy skill difficulty can lower the chances at a skill gain "outside " of GGS... but what I am saying is, that GGS should by all means TRUMP skill difficulty if it wants to mean "Guaranteed" Gain.....

    What I suspect is, that probably this might be the mulfunctioning of GGS.... that is, the regular code for skill Gains factors in skill difficulty but, when GGS was coded to "Guarantee" to players skill gains in X time, for some reasons, it was not coded to have GGS "trump" the skill difficulty condition and award a Gain only, and exclusively, under the "timer" condition and nothing else with the timer being dictated by the skill level and the total of skill points that the character has....

    @ Kyronix , could you, perhaps, kindly have a look at this and please fix it, thus making GGS truly a "Guaranteed" Gain System and not the unreliable mechanics that it now seems to be ?

    As in regards to you closure point, and that is that it was not intended to replace training in its entirety, well, to my viewing, GGS makes sense to be used only at higher levels of the skill, past 100.0.... for below that level, players would still prefer, I assume, to do it in longer logged in stretches, perhaps using Alacrity scrolls, if they have them or can afford them...

    I see no "evil" at all in GGS being used to train up a skill at higher levels.... certainly, MUCH better, to my opinion, as compared using AFK macro scripts.... not to mention, that as I explained in a post above, with numbers, even using GGS gains, it still takes MONTHS to train a skill from 100.0 to 120.0 .... I see totally nothing wrong with this and it offers to players who do not have too much time to be logged in UO, or who do not want to cheat to train up their skills, a valid and viable alternative to reach 120.0.

    If it worked reliably and consistently, that is, and that is why I made this Threat, to try capture the attention of the the Developers to then please fix the current unreliability and unpredictabilty of the "Guaranteed" Gain System which is, at the moment, anything BUT "Guaranteed ", to my opinion.......
    This world record long post... 

    @Kyronix have mercy... just give him the 0.1 skill gain and spare us... the torture
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,967
    He admitted he is using too easy of a task. GGS is working, but not how Poops wants it to work.

    Condense all this to. 

    In my view GGS should work no matter how easy the task is.  That's the way I see it.

    Lots less typing.
This discussion has been closed.