This is ridicolous... Greater Dragons dispelling WAY too easily and often Summons...

poppspopps Posts: 3,304
To the point that, even with 120 Magery and 120 Meditation, not to mention 40 LMC on the suit and over 15 MR, I cannot keep up with my Mana with the easiness that Greater Dragons have to dispell Summons which, by the way, cost a lot of mana to cast.... I run out of mana and am unable to use Summons to do any hurt to Greater Dragons...

Mind you, I am talking of "regular" Greater Dragons, not even of Paragons...

@Kyronix , perhaps the ability of some Monsters, and Greater Dragons certainly for one, to dispel Summons is way too easy and too frequent ?

Can you please make spellcasting and Summons to fight these Monsters a viable and feasible gameplay activity ?

Thanks.


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Comments

  • JepethJepeth Posts: 406
    edited May 18
    Before the usual suspects show up and the usual responses occur, allow me to offer this perspective: why do you think your character knows more about magic than the magical, ancient, and ruthless dragon?
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,304
    Jepeth said:
    Before the usual suspects show up and the usual responses occur, allow me to offer this perspective: why do you think your character knows more about magic than the magical, ancient, and ruthless dragon?
    Meh, what about, instead, playable gameplay for a Spellcaster using Summons to fight Greater Dragons ?

    Besides, one would imagine that, by achieving the skill of "Legendary" Mage, that knowldge to be able to sustain one's own Summons up against the magical, ancient and ruthless dragon could be something that the Legendary Mage has achieved....

    By the way, I also have all "real" skill 120 Magery.... just for the record.... and it still is pointless to avoid my Summons to get dispelled a go go by regular (not Paragon) Greater Dragons....
  • JepethJepeth Posts: 406
    Hey, 'meh' all you want. While I generally opt for balanced gameplay in most situations in this instance I have to go with what we know about dragons from in-lore and out-of-universe fantasy stories. There is no way Smaug or Ancalagon the Black or even Draco from Dragonheart is going to be all that fussed with a swirl of energy. They'd probably just blow the energy away via one deep breath.

    Also, one would think the legendary mage would know enough about dragons to not pick a solo fight with them. That's for brave idiots like the Paladins. 
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,304
    edited May 18
    Jepeth said:
    Hey, 'meh' all you want. While I generally opt for balanced gameplay in most situations in this instance I have to go with what we know about dragons from in-lore and out-of-universe fantasy stories. There is no way Smaug or Ancalagon the Black or even Draco from Dragonheart is going to be all that fussed with a swirl of energy. They'd probably just blow the energy away via one deep breath.

    Also, one would think the legendary mage would know enough about dragons to not pick a solo fight with them. That's for brave idiots like the Paladins. 
    Also, one would think the legendary mage would know enough about dragons to not pick a solo fight with them. That's for brave idiots like the Paladins. 

    And for Tamers I reckon, since their pets do not get dispelled by Greater Dragons....

    So, just spellcasters should be at a disadvantage when having to deal with Greater Dragons and, this, because of some Lore.... even though they mastered in the Arts of Magic to the point of becoming Legendary Mages ?

    I am sorry, but I cannot see that as balanced....

  • Lord_FrodoLord_Frodo Posts: 1,340
    What summons are you using?
  • JepethJepeth Posts: 406
    A tamer's pet is a physical thing, right? Like it's an independent creature that wasn't just conjured via the ether. It has experience and training to draw upon when facing a foe. It's "real."

    A mage's summonable is a hollow creation of ether that's not really living. It was born from nothing and in a few moments returns back to the void. 

    The two are completely different entities. It's like comparing a puppet of a frog to an actual frog. The moment the hand leaves the puppet, Kermit goes flat. The real frog continues on.

    You're looking for parity for mage classes with the other classes. I agree that in a lot of ways mages are under-utilized and under-powered these days. But making their summonables a carbon copy of what tamers can do isn't a very elegant way to make them a more viable class, nor would it entirely fit within the canon.

    Mages need their own thing that the other classes can't do. Better area of effect damage spells, better damage over time spells, better heal over time spells. 
  • Petra_FydePetra_Fyde Posts: 1,142
    Anyone who digs Trove treasure maps has been dealing with this for several years now. Greater Dragons and Frost Dragons chain dispel constantly. My treasure hunter carries a surge shield and urali trance tonics to help with mana consumption, but sometimes you just have to find a quiet corner and meditate for a while.

    Every template has advantages and disadvantages. It is your role, as a player, to find ways to mitigate the disadvantages and play the character to best effect. 

    If there were no disadvantages, there would be no challenge and the game would be too boring to play. Find a way to meet the challenges!  Please?
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,304
    edited May 18
    What summons are you using?
    The only 1 Summon possible, Energy Vortexes....

    Why is it the only 1 viable ?

    Because RC and Reapers are 5 slots and, thus, require the spellcaster to remain on foot which, with Greater Dragons, not to mention paragons, equals to certain death....

    Mind you, I also tried, while on foot, to summon reapers, and Greater Dragons dispel those just as well and as easily...

    So, I am not aware of any other Summon but Energy Vortexes (other then the Earth, Water and Fire Elementals which are quite useless) which can be cast when mounted....
  • Petra_FydePetra_Fyde Posts: 1,142
    The obvious answer is 'don't fight greater dragons'.  I have just spent an hour in Destard on Origin, I have 6 drops and have not killed a single greater dragon. I don't fight in the middle of the dragon area, I run around the ledge above it, sniping at smaller stuff near the edge, up past the snake pit to the large 'back' area or towards the slope to level 2. 
    I am playing a chiv archer, using crafted, imbued bows.
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,304
    edited May 18
    The obvious answer is 'don't fight greater dragons'.  I have just spent an hour in Destard on Origin, I have 6 drops and have not killed a single greater dragon. I don't fight in the middle of the dragon area, I run around the ledge above it, sniping at smaller stuff near the edge, up past the snake pit to the large 'back' area or towards the slope to level 2. 
    I am playing a chiv archer, using crafted, imbued bows.
    Why ?

    Because Greater Dragons "HAVE TO" maintain an insane ability to dispel Summons ?

    May I ask what purpose might this Design serve, other then making spellcasters an unable Template to be played in Destard ?

    The chance of drops, increases with the toughness of the Monsters killed so, Greater Dragons award more points towards a drop as compared to lower creatures...

    Forbidding to spellcasters to be able to tackle Greater Dragons because of the insane dispelling ability that they have been given, to my opinion, is unbalanced and not fair towards players who may play spellcasters....
  • dvviddvvid Posts: 782
    Didn’t you already make a thread about this?

    Anyway, use slayer books and play with some friends. Different templates have different strengths and weaknesses. I don’t like when summons are dispelled easily by some creatures but that’s just one of the things that makes those particular creatures a challenge. Casters can do things warriors can’t and the other way around. 
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 1,576
    Yep - here is the link to the same exact post he made a couple weeks ago.

    https://forum.uo.com/discussion/10621/could-monsters-dispelling-summons-be-toned-down-some#latest ;
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 941
    edited May 18
    The short answer to your question is that the energy vortex is not effective for dealing with most dragons including the greater dragon.  They all dispell it with ease.  Second, you don’t have enough mana to kill para dragons outright even if it is held down by your ev.

    This tech works to solo greater dragons, frost dragons and the ancient wyrm start from a distance of about 12.  Invis first if they have a lock on you.  Run into a distance of 10, energy bolt, don’t wait, run back to a distance of 12 or so, invis.  Repeat until the dragon is dead.  With frost dragons use flamestrike.  With my dragon slayer in hand it takes about 10 to 13 hits to kill one.

    With just magery you can’t solo a para dragon unless you have lots of room to run and all day to try and kill it.  I help others to kill these.  Death ray works great when they are being held.
    In Destard I solo the regular dragons and help players with the others.

    Most things you fight can be held by your EV while you kill them but not dragons.  Believe that is intentional and agree with that decision.


  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,969
    He has a tamer and swinger but chooses to play a mage.

    He can pick which template that works best at each encounter. Or learn how to use the one He wants to use.

    @popps you can't make a thread called, I want to use my ......... in Destard how do I do it effectively?

    Instead of another whiney novel.
  • MerusMerus Posts: 555
    The way I see it the mage is no different than the archer when it comes to Greater Dragons:

    Either get anat/eval, wrestling or a mage weapon so you can stand still while you cast without being hit every time, or kite the dragon around with high SDI and a slayer spellbook till it’s dead.

    The idea that you want your solo mage to stand still and cast while completely safe in every fight is the problem here, not that some of the highest end mobs in UO can dispel your summons.
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,969
    No Eval?  Then he is just a summons user. 

    Get eval is you call yourself a mage.
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 941
    edited May 18
    My tech. above assumes the mage has eval intel.
  • Lord_FrodoLord_Frodo Posts: 1,340
    NEVER NEVER NEVER assume anything when it comes to popps
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,304
    Arnold7 said:
    The short answer to your question is that the energy vortex is not effective for dealing with most dragons including the greater dragon.  They all dispell it with ease.  Second, you don’t have enough mana to kill para dragons outright even if it is held down by your ev.

    This tech works to solo greater dragons, frost dragons and the ancient wyrm start from a distance of about 12.  Invis first if they have a lock on you.  Run into a distance of 10, energy bolt, don’t wait, run back to a distance of 12 or so, invis.  Repeat until the dragon is dead.  With frost dragons use flamestrike.  With my dragon slayer in hand it takes about 10 to 13 hits to kill one.

    With just magery you can’t solo a para dragon unless you have lots of room to run and all day to try and kill it.  I help others to kill these.  Death ray works great when they are being held.
    In Destard I solo the regular dragons and help players with the others.

    Most things you fight can be held by your EV while you kill them but not dragons.  Believe that is intentional and agree with that decision.


    I do not pretend to want to solo Paragon Greater Dragons at all.

    But "regular" Greater Dragons ?

    I think that a Mage should be able, using Summons, to fight and kill a regular Greater Dragon solo.

    Yet, because of Greater Dragon's ridicolous ability to dispell Summons, this is hardly a possibility.

    Personally, I think that the ability of Greater Dragons to dispel Summons should be toned down and, quite a lot too....
  • poppspopps Posts: 3,304
    Merus said:
    The way I see it the mage is no different than the archer when it comes to Greater Dragons:

    Either get anat/eval, wrestling or a mage weapon so you can stand still while you cast without being hit every time, or kite the dragon around with high SDI and a slayer spellbook till it’s dead.

    The idea that you want your solo mage to stand still and cast while completely safe in every fight is the problem here, not that some of the highest end mobs in UO can dispel your summons.
    The point is, that I do not see the ratio behind wanting Greater Dragons being able to have a ridicolous ability to dispel pretty much any and all Summons like 99% of the times...

    I mean, seriously, does it have to be so much powerfull that they can dispel pretty much any and all summons that a spellcaster may throw at them ?

    This, is the argument I am bringing up....

    I do not see any gameplay logic to have Greater Dragons be made capable of pretty much nullifying spellcasters ability to fight them with summons...
  • keven2002keven2002 Posts: 1,576
    edited May 18
    @popps - you seem to always forget something Kyronix says over and over again. The game is about choices. Sorry that you feel like you should be able to do any content in the game with any skill in the game with any suit in the game, but that is simply not how the game works or has ever worked.

    If you dislike how the greater dragons work against a mage then you can choose to either use a tamer/sampire/archer/thrower/bard or you can work in a group using your mage or you choose not bother with them.

    Case closed.
  • MerusMerus Posts: 555
    popps said:
    Merus said:
    The way I see it the mage is no different than the archer when it comes to Greater Dragons:

    Either get anat/eval, wrestling or a mage weapon so you can stand still while you cast without being hit every time, or kite the dragon around with high SDI and a slayer spellbook till it’s dead.

    The idea that you want your solo mage to stand still and cast while completely safe in every fight is the problem here, not that some of the highest end mobs in UO can dispel your summons.
    The point is, that I do not see the ratio behind wanting Greater Dragons being able to have a ridicolous ability to dispel pretty much any and all Summons like 99% of the times...

    I mean, seriously, does it have to be so much powerfull that they can dispel pretty much any and all summons that a spellcaster may throw at them ?

    This, is the argument I am bringing up....

    I do not see any gameplay logic to have Greater Dragons be made capable of pretty much nullifying spellcasters ability to fight them with summons...
    I think the answer is yes, this is the way it was intended for some of the most powerful mobs in the game, and yes it should stay that way even if you whine about it.  At present the only class of character that doesn’t have to deal with this issue is a tamer with a well trained pet.  Every other class has to risk attacks from greater dragons.  All of them.  Your 40 mana summons is not equivalent to a fully trained and skilled pet.  That’s just the way it is.  Find other ways to use your mage, or get a different character.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,741
    popps said:
    Merus said:
    The way I see it the mage is no different than the archer when it comes to Greater Dragons:

    Either get anat/eval, wrestling or a mage weapon so you can stand still while you cast without being hit every time, or kite the dragon around with high SDI and a slayer spellbook till it’s dead.

    The idea that you want your solo mage to stand still and cast while completely safe in every fight is the problem here, not that some of the highest end mobs in UO can dispel your summons.
    The point is, that I do not see the ratio behind wanting Greater Dragons being able to have a ridicolous ability to dispel pretty much any and all Summons like 99% of the times...

    I mean, seriously, does it have to be so much powerfull that they can dispel pretty much any and all summons that a spellcaster may throw at them ?

    This, is the argument I am bringing up....

    I do not see any gameplay logic to have Greater Dragons be made capable of pretty much nullifying spellcasters ability to fight them with summons...
    You'd hate being a bard...
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • ArchangelArchangel Posts: 426
    Mage mystic can deal with GD much easier Popps. you in stoneform to survive just a bit longer, With a dragon slayer book, ant 181 SDI,  hailstorm 3 or 4 times, the GD is dead. For a paragon, well, run.. orwith mana shield & empowerment, precast RC, let lose, poison,  hailstorm 2 times, heal heal Hailstorm 2 more times.. and then run cuz you'll be about to die...  go back once youre healed and with mana and repeat... may take 3 incursions.. and you'll get nothing worth your effort... so best just run to the innermost edge of the cave and recall 
  • PawainPawain Posts: 6,969
    edited May 18
    He does not want advice on how to play his template.

    He wants to be hidden and use his single summon. To kill everything while he watches.

    The exact reason dispel was added to these mobs.
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 941
    Popps my mage treasure hunter routinely kills greater dragons.  Sometimes two or three to a chest.  He leads them off so it is one on one and then uses the method I outlined above to kill them.  Some chests spawn four a five dragons and a couple more during the looting process.  My mage kills them all although it takes awhile.  He has never lost a chest to dragons.

    UO’s original developers intended that dragons have the ability to dispell EV’s just the same as mages do.  It’s an element of the game.  Think also original developer intended dragons be killed by several players working together.  I think a lot of your posts have merit. But in this case what you are complaining about is what the original designers intended.  They gave dragons considerable magical and physical powers because they wanted dragons to be a top of the line challenge.

    I leave them alone in Destard because I it takes to long to kill them but my method does work there in the main area if the dragon is in an open area.  I have used it during the event.  If you are a mystic mage without eval intel. use Archangel’s technique.  I don’t know that you get extra credit for killing them.  If you do get more credit for killing greater dragons might rethink my thinking about leaving them alone.  Will be interested in seeing what else is said about that.
  • McDougleMcDougle Posts: 3,741
    Arnold7 said:
    Popps my mage treasure hunter routinely kills greater dragons.  Sometimes two or three to a chest.  He leads them off so it is one on one and then uses the method I outlined above to kill them.  Some chests spawn four a five dragons and a couple more during the looting process.  My mage kills them all although it takes awhile.  He has never lost a chest to dragons.

    UO’s original developers intended that dragons have the ability to dispell EV’s just the same as mages do.  It’s an element of the game.  Think also original developer intended dragons be killed by several players working together.  I think a lot of your posts have merit. But in this case what you are complaining about is what the original designers intended.  They gave dragons considerable magical and physical powers because they wanted dragons to be a top of the line challenge.

    I leave them alone in Destard because I it takes to long to kill them but my method does work there in the main area if the dragon is in an open area.  I have used it during the event.  If you are a mystic mage without eval intel. use Archangel’s technique.  I don’t know that you get extra credit for killing them.  If you do get more credit for killing greater dragons might rethink my thinking about leaving them alone.  Will be interested in seeing what else is said about that.
    The creature's fame determines drop "points " so of course kill the GDs
    Acknowledgment and accountability go a long way... 
  • Arnold7Arnold7 Posts: 941
    Thanks always wondered about.  May go after a few.
  • vortexvortex Posts: 155
    Oh what will tomorrows complaint be...
  • SethSeth Posts: 2,753
    edited May 19
    If this is complaint is about a normal GD, then the player needs to learn how to make use of the most powerful sw mystic mage template with up to 96 spells at his disposal. 

    If it's about the paragon GD. 

    Mage summon touches paragon GD gets dispelled in 1 second. 2 EV is 2 seconds. After that the mages can continue to spam EV or run away to attack other mobs immediately.

    Warrior touches the paragon GD and dies in 3 to 4 seconds. He runs away to get rezed.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 
    ESRB warning: Some Blood. LOTS of Alcohol. Some Violence. LOTS of Bugs
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